How exactly does making NPCs work in 2e?

[Yqatuba]

From what I can tell, some NPCs have class levels like PCs, while others just have a creature level like monsters do and no class(es), although they often have some class features like spellcasting or sneak attack. So, is either way of making NPCs considered valid?

[Captain Morgan]

Yqatuba wrote:

From what I can tell, some NPCs have class levels like PCs, while others just have a creature level like monsters do and no class(es), although they often have some class features like spellcasting or sneak attack. So, is either way of making NPCs considered valid? [/QUOTE

Get the GMG, yo. Or just read the rules on this off Archive of Nethys.

[Cydeth]

Building Creatures on Archives of Nethys.

[Malk_Content]

I'll also note there is a bit of conceptual entanglement. A primarily combat npc should be built via the gmg rules. Non combat NPCs can gave whatever skills they need to work, with the proviso that their xp reward depends on how they challenge you.

E.g the king has tasked the craftsman of his land to produce a weapon that serves as a symbol of his office. In the end it comes down to you and Ulrig Stouthearth, legendary Smith. He has a +25 to Craft, he also has the combat stats of a commoner. Killing him nets you the xp of a level 1 thing, beating him at his craft nets you the xp of a level 13 thing.

[Zapp]

Malk_Content wrote:

I'll also note there is a bit of conceptual entanglement. A primarily combat npc should be built via the gmg rules. Non combat NPCs can gave whatever skills they need to work, with the proviso that their xp reward depends on how they challenge you.

E.g the king has tasked the craftsman of his land to produce a weapon that serves as a symbol of his office. In the end it comes down to you and Ulrig Stouthearth, legendary Smith. He has a +25 to Craft, he also has the combat stats of a commoner. Killing him nets you the xp of a level 1 thing, beating him at his craft nets you the xp of a level 13 thing.

Yes.

In short, this means that creating NPCs using the full PC rules never happens (and I haven't seen a single official Paizo NPC created this way).

That is, if you intend the NPC to ever fight, create it as a monster.

And if you don't intend the NPC to fight, just give it whatever scores the story needs. Should the PCs attack it, simply say "you kill him in a single blow" and have the former heroes face the music.

Looked at it this way, there simply isn't any use case that warrants a full PC-like writeup of an NPC. Just about the only reason I can think of is when you're playing with a very small group (less than three players), and want to augment the group with a NPC controlled by you (or ideally, a new player each session).

[Ediwir]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

From what I can tell, some NPCs have class levels like PCs, while others just have a creature level like monsters do and no class(es), although they often have some class features like spellcasting or sneak attack. So, is either way of making NPCs considered valid?

Get the GMG, yo. Or just read the rules on this off Archive of Nethys.

I'm sure that was less of a RTFM and more of a "the GMG is really cool, you should get it!".

That aside, while I have built NPCs both ways and while they both "work", the monster-style is definitely more effective.
Nominally, I once found myself having to build a ranger with animal companion, and statted her up using class levels. The final result was way below expectations in most defensive and offensive values, but had a plethora of situational options and improvements (for example, it would critically succeed at a lot of things a lot more often than a monster-stat would have).
While this made her "work", it's the kind of "work" that requires a long run. Large amounts of situational power cause effectiveness spikes often enough to be appreciated in the long run, but make for less predictable short-term behaviour.

I ended up statting her as an encounter with monster rules instead, giving her an "animal companion" as a monster a few levels below her. Behaved exactly as I wanted her to, no weird spikes or flukes.

[Gorbacz]

I've statted up the Big Fight in book 4 of Hell's Rebels in PF2 using GMG and it took me less time than it did to go through all the PF1 statblocks and analyse what can those NPCs do, how should I run them in a fight, what should I be mindful of and whatanot.

It's so much easier if you go the monster-style.

[Yqatuba]

Zapp wrote:

In short, this means that creating NPCs using the full PC rules never happens (and I haven't seen a single official Paizo NPC created this way).

There is an NPC with class levels in the first Age of Ashes book (not gonna spoil who.)

[Kelseus]

Yqatuba wrote:

Zapp wrote:

In short, this means that creating NPCs using the full PC rules never happens (and I haven't seen a single official Paizo NPC created this way).

There is an NPC with class levels in the first Age of Ashes book (not gonna spoil who.)

Yes but that is also the very first adventure ever written and published for Pathfinder 2. So it should be considered an outlier.

[Captain Morgan]

Kelseus wrote:

Yqatuba wrote:

Zapp wrote:

In short, this means that creating NPCs using the full PC rules never happens (and I haven't seen a single official Paizo NPC created this way).

There is an NPC with class levels in the first Age of Ashes book (not gonna spoil who.)

Yes but that is also the very first adventure ever written and published for Pathfinder 2. So it should be considered an outlier.

To expand on this, it was being written while the core rules were being written, and way before they had NPC rules finalized enough to publish.

[Yqatuba]

So, If I ever run it should I just remake his statblock from scratch?

[Rysky]

Only if his statblock as is is causing issues, which I don’t believe to be the case.

[thenobledrake]

With that particular NPC the effect, in my opinion, of being written up as a PC rather than an NPC is more words on the page than are necessary but not a significant difference in power level.

[Zapp]

Just to make clear, we are talking about

Spoiler:

Alak Stagram, the second level fighter

, right?

I wouldn't say his stat block is much different from other level 2 creatures. Sure, it references the rulebook for two fighter actions/feats, which at higher levels would have become a mess, but I don't see the statblock as especially bloated...

I do realize it can make a reader think that's the way NPCs are statted up in PF2, but at this point I think everybody's clear that he's the exception that proves the rule.

[thenobledrake]

Zapp wrote:

Just to make clear, we are talking about

** spoiler omitted **, right?

I wouldn't say his stat block is much different from other level 2 creatures. Sure, it references the rulebook for two fighter actions/feats, which at higher levels would have become a mess, but I don't see the statblock as especially bloated...

I do realize it can make a reader think that's the way NPCs are statted up in PF2, but at this point I think everybody's clear that he's the exception that proves the rule.

I actually thought the NPC in question was

Spoiler:

Calmont, who has Surprise Attack in his stat block without much of a way to use it with how the scenario is established

[Captain Morgan]

And I thought it was a third NPC. However, I don't think any of those characters had skill feats or anything, so they weren't really built like PCs even if they shared some class feats. The GMG defined how to do this pretty well.

[Ravingdork]

Zapp wrote:

Just to make clear, we are talking about

** spoiler omitted **, right?

I wouldn't say his stat block is much different from other level 2 creatures. Sure, it references the rulebook for two fighter actions/feats, which at higher levels would have become a mess, but I don't see the statblock as especially bloated...

I do realize it can make a reader think that's the way NPCs are statted up in PF2, but at this point I think everybody's clear that he's the exception that proves the rule.

I just played as that NPC recently. When my monk died my GM let me play him for a session. When he tried to put his stats into the Roll20 PC character sheet template for me, he couldn't reconcile the AC. I had to remind him that NPCs and PCs are built differently now and that he should have used the NPC sheet template.

(Can players be given control over NPC sheets on Roll20?)

In any case, I think it might be somewhat significant that every stat was inline with that of a PC of the same level, save one.

[Yqatuba]

TheNobleDrake is correct about who I meant.

[Salamileg]

Ravingdork wrote:

(Can players be given control over NPC sheets on Roll20?)

Yup, I have NPC versions of my players that I give to other players to control in combat if that player isn't present so I don't have to adjust encounters. Keeps them from having to suddenly figure out how to use an entire character they might not be familiar with mechanically.