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Now, I have a question for the community here which I am wrestling with which the RAW doesn't seem to offer insight into.
Innate Spells are, from what I gather, are "...natural to your character, typically coming from your ancestry or a magic item rather than your class."
So, establishing that bit it goes on to say that you're always trained in them and that Innate Spells follow whatever your other Spell Training is so if you're expert in Occult you are also an expert in Innate, ok cool it all makes sense fine. Then it goes on to talk about how you always use Charisma unless otherwise noted on the source of the Innate Spell which is where the "problem lies."
As far as I can tell EVERY Magic Item in the game that grants a way to Cast a Spell falls into these guidelines. The way the Innate Spells rules are worded it would seem that since the Scrolls, Magic Items like Skeleton Key and Aeon Stones, as well as the good-old Staff do not in any way indicate that you should use a Spellcasting Ability Modifier OTHER than Charisma to calculate the Spell Attack and DC. It notes that you should use your Class DC for the Spell for all Innate Spells but this Formula already has a uniquely defined DC if the source of the Innate Spell doesn't explicitly state you should use an Ability Score other than Charisma. Basically, if the source (Scroll/Item Staff) doesn't spell out that you use something OTHER than Charisma, you ALWAYS use Charisma.
This impacts a HUGE swath of Magic Items. First, it's a bit problematic as it seems that this isn't spelled out a bit more clearly and second it's an issue because, well... I have no idea if Spells sourced from a Magic Item are supposed to automatically key off Charisma. I'm having a hard time finding precedent anywhere that would suggest that, for example, a Wizard with a Class DC of 22 for a normal Fireball should have a DC 22 for a Fireball cast from a Staff, if anything I'm seeing what appears to be rules consistent with the fact that this hypothetical Wizard has to key the DC off Cha resulting in a DC loss of 1-5.
So, now that I've laid the groundwork for where my head is at in all this and how utterly confused I really am I want to open it up to the community with a few basic questions:
What is/isn't an Innate Spell?
Are Scroll and Staff Spells Innate Spells?
How do you think this work via RAW?
How do you think it is supposed to work via RAI?
How do you WANT it to work?
Do all Magic Items which grant the ability to Cast a Spell, grant Innate Spells?
Are there any sections, items, or abilities that I missed when going over this which override the Specific "Use Charisma" rule for Innate Spells?
Please help, this is really hurting my brain. I feel like a Wizard should be able to use his Scrolls/Staff to cast at his normal SA Roll and Spell DC but from what I can tell Innate Spells overwrite the normal DC Calculation and the Staff/Scroll description doesn't offer any "out" of the specific wording that forces the use of Charisma.
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Scroll spells at least do not appear to be Innate spells when cast.
To Cast a Spell from a scroll, the spell must appear on
your spell list. Because you’re the one Casting the Spell,
use your spell attack roll and spell DC. The spell also
gains the appropriate trait for your tradition (arcane,
divine, occult, or primal).
Staves also have similar wording.
Use your spell attack roll and spell DC when Casting a
Spell from a staff. The spell gains the appropriate trait for
your magical tradition (arcane, divine, occult, or primal)
and can be affected by any modifications you can
normally make when casting spells, such as metamagic
feats. You must provide any material components, cost,
or focus required by the spell, or you fail to cast it.
This leads me to believe that in the case of Scrolls and Staves, they are more or less treated as additional spells in your repertoire for the purpose of casting them, with the "slot" being provided by the item itself. For all other purposes you cast it just as you would a spell you yourself know. This differs from an item that grants an innate spell.
Items that grant innate spells tend to give you the relevant DC's in their statblock, and state that the granted spell is an innate spell. Aeon stones are a great example. But beyond aeon stones, I believe that most items that grant a spell do so as an innate spell. Wishing Luck Blade for example states that you cast it's Wish as an Arcane Innate Spell.
Others don't say as much, but arguably do grant their spells as Innate. Holy Avenger for example has an activated ability that allows you to cast Dispel Magic at a previously struck target heightened to the level of your Champion Focus Spells. This operates differently from some items that grant innate spells, but arguably does follow the rules for Innate Spells.
You can’t use your spell slots to cast your innate
spells, but you might have an innate spell and
also be able to prepare or cast the same spell
through your class. You also can’t heighten
innate spells, but some abilities that
grant innate spells might give you the
spell at a higher level than its base level or
change the level at which you cast the spell.
So Holy Avenger has an activated ability which casts Dispel Magic against an opponent that you have struck previously. The ability does not state specifically that this spell is "innate", but it follows the guidelines for an innate spell well. So it would logically follow that you would use your CHA to calculate the DC of the Dispel Magic, and otherwise treat this "granted" spell as an Innate Spell. Which is convenient since a Champions casting stat is already CHA.
Compare to Sky Hammer:
Activate [reaction] command; Trigger Your attack roll with the sky hammer is a critical success;
Effect: A 6th-level arcane fireball spell explodes, centered on
the sky hammer. The spell DC is 45. You are immune to the
fireball’s effect, though your allies are not.
These spells I would consider falling under Innate spells, though they are special in that they are triggered by specific circumstances rather than being "cast".
In the case of Sky Hammer, I believe the Hammer itself is casting the Fireball, not the user. Hence why it requires a casting of the spell to craft it.
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Beo - The problem with part of your bit regarding the DC of spells on an item such as with the Hammer is that those instances where the item lists a static DC are an exception to the normal Innate Spell Rules not the norm. The normal rule for Innate Spells is that you use your regular Spellcasting formula if you have one, otherwise normal Trained prof + the Charisma Mod + other bonues + other penalties.
An Innate Spell is always (Unless otherwise stated on the Item itself) going to be using the noted Spell Attack Roll and Spell DC. The problem is that the section in the Casting Spells from a Staff fails to say anything about what "Type" of Spell it is and ... well since it's a Spell being Cast via Activation of an Item that makes it an Innate Spell as far as I can tell, it's not added to Spells Known/Prepared or a Repertoire even temporarily, the Spell itself originates from the Staff.
There is wording in the Staff block that DOES override the normal rules for Innate Spells (Such as only being able to use it if it appears on your Spell List) but the relevant text to indicate that you can use an Ability Score Mod other than Charisma (As it's the default for Innate Spells) for the purposes of SA and Spell DC is mysteriously missing.
The whole problem evaporates instantly the moment you simply treat the Spells in a Staff as normal Spell and NOT as Innate Spells but I'm ... I'm just not seeing anything that definitively defines them one way or another.
I think my main issue in all of this is how nebulously defined and codified Innate Spells are given how prevalent they are in the game. I really want to see people pick this apart and tear my arguments to shreds here, really hand to me, you know... I want to be wrong about all this.
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There is wording in the Staff block that DOES override the normal rules for Innate Spells (Such as only being able to use it if it appears on your Spell List) but the relevant text to indicate that you can use an Ability Score Mod other than Charisma (As it's the default for Innate Spells) for the purposes of SA and Spell DC is mysteriously missing.
The whole problem evaporates instantly the moment you simply treat the Spells in a Staff as normal Spell and NOT as Innate Spells but I'm ... I'm just not seeing anything that definitively defines them one way or another.
I generally believe this is solved by following the line in staves or scrolls exactly.
Use your spell attack roll and spell DC when Casting a
Spell from a staff. The spell gains the appropriate trait for
your magical tradition (arcane, divine, occult, or primal)
and can be affected by any modifications you can
normally make when casting spells, such as metamagic
feats
You use your spell attack roll and spell DC. Nothing indicates that you substitute any other ability, nor that the casted spell operates any differently than a spell that you cast with one of your own spell slots. This neatly fixes that issue without the need to specify that you use your own ability, its rolled into your spell attack and spell DC already.
If they intended you to alter those stats, they would say so. At least that is my opinion on the matter.
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If an item lists “Cast a Spell” after “Activate,” the activation requires you to use the Cast a Spell activity (described on page 302) to Activate the Item. This happens when the item replicates a spell. You must have a spellcasting class feature to Activate an Item with this activation component. If the item can be used for a specific spell, the action icon for that spell is provided. If it’s an item like a staff, which can be used for many spells, the icon is omitted, and you must refer to each spell to determine which actions you must spend to Activate the Item to cast it. In this case, Activate an Item gains all the traits from the relevant components of the Cast a Spell activity.
You use the Cast a Spell activity when casting spells from items. If you do not have access to the Cast a Spell activity, then you cannot use spells from items. As such, I imagine you'd use your normal spellcasting DC (or whichever one is highest if you follow multiple traditions).
If it's a Command item that duplicates a spell effect rather than an item that casts a spell, I would rule that it defaults to your class DC, since all classes have that.
Where are you guys reading that it has anything at all to do with Innate Spells?
For once I agree. Just because items can give you Innate spells doesn't mean that all items that cast spells do give you Innate spells.
For once I agree. Just because items can give you Innate spells doesn't mean that all items that cast spells do give you Innate spells.
Some even go out of their way to NOT grant you a spell at all, even when they create a "spell effect".
Mattock of the Titans allows you to, once a day, non-magically replicate the effects of Earthquake.
Basically, my point is, that you have to read each item that grants a spell, or "spell like effect", and treat each of them as what they are. If the spell is called out as an Innate spell then you follow those rules. If it isn't you just have to do your best to interpret how that spell is supposed to function.
By and large most items that grant a spell are pretty explicit on how that spell is cast, whether it is an Innate spell or not.
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Then I guess the question is - What qualifies an item as granting you an Innate Spell? There seems to several items that DO specify that the item is granting you an Innate Spell but at the same time nearly identical Items (I'm looking at you Aeon Stones) FAIL to note that the Spell being granted is Innate. Should we only assume a Spell is Innate when it explictly says it is? You can find the definition and rules for Innate Spells on pg. 302.
It's not spelled out (heh) anywhere that I can find and the ONLY guidance offered anywhere is the indication that any Magic Item which grants you the ability to Cast a Spell gives Innate Spells.
Also, saying you use your normal Spell DC doesn't help at either because the Spell DC itself explicitly changes when dealing with Innate Spells and the rules call out in no uncertain terms that if it's an Innate Spell being cast you use Charisma as the Spellcasting Stat unless otherwise specified which the Staff rules do not include. There are some other things about Innate Spell rules that are overwritten by Staff rules but all of those differences are written out explicitly where they DO differ...
For the record: I don't think that Staff Spells SHOULD be Innate Spells but from everything I'm seeing in the rules themselves nothing overrides the Innate Spell = Granted by a Magic Item which Staff Spells most certainly ARE
Depending on this is SUPPOSED to work it has the potential to affect the vast majority of Spellcasters in the game, almost universally in a negative way in that -If they're Innate Spells > The Spell DC and Spell Attack Roll is going to use Charisma (Not a big deal for Sorcerers but that's honestly whatever at this point) for the calculations.
Help me find some RAW here please, I do already understand some of the arguments based in the fact that there are rules that are specific to the Staffs themselves that override how it works but... I'm at a loss.
It's an Innate Spell if the ability giving it to you says it is.
The Gold Nodule Aeon Stone says that the Comprehend Languages it lets you cast is an Occult Innate Spell.
The Pale Lavender Ellipsoid Aeon Stone on the other hand doesn't grant you any spells. The stone itself casts 6th-level Dispel Magic with a counteract modifier of +22.
I'm having trouble understanding the problem.
What is a specific example of an item that is causing you consternation?