I agree you get only what it says. Are you missing the part where you select an arcane school?
Nope. I even stated that I can see you gaining a school when taking the Arcane Spell School feat. What I don't see is how you can ever count as a Universalist Wizard for the purposes of qualifying for the Hand of the Apprentice feat.
You know, the original OP's question. Hence why my answer is still no, you can't take Hand of the Apprentice as an MC Wizard.
A universalist is defined in Arcane School, but nothing says you need that class feature to earn the designation. Any wizard without a school focus is by default and definition a universalist.
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A universalist is defined in Arcane School, but nothing says you need that class feature to earn the designation. Any wizard without a school focus is by default and definition a universalist.
By this reading that also means that all MCA Wizards gain a free Wizard Feat, a free 1st level spell and a non-functional ability to Drain Bonded Item too.
Doesn't make sense. The Universalist rules only ever apply when the Arcane School Wizard Class Ability is in play which is not something that the MCA feat can ever grant currently.
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A universalist is defined in Arcane School, but nothing says you need that class feature to earn the designation. Any wizard without a school focus is by default and definition a universalist.By this reading that also means that all MCA Wizards gain a free Wizard Feat, a free 1st level spell and a non-functional ability to Drain Bonded Item too.
Doesn't make sense. The Universalist rules only ever apply when the Arcane School Wizard Class Ability is in play which is not something that the MCA feat can ever grant currently.
Don’t be silly. Universalist is a designation. “This reading” doesn’t give you all that arcane school stuff. You get only what is in the dedication feat. It’s a label.
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Don’t be silly. Universalist is a designation. “This reading” doesn’t give you all that arcane school stuff. You get only what is in the dedication feat. It’s a label.A universalist is defined in Arcane School, but nothing says you need that class feature to earn the designation. Any wizard without a school focus is by default and definition a universalist.By this reading that also means that all MCA Wizards gain a free Wizard Feat, a free 1st level spell and a non-functional ability to Drain Bonded Item too.
Doesn't make sense. The Universalist rules only ever apply when the Arcane School Wizard Class Ability is in play which is not something that the MCA feat can ever grant currently.
Perhaps I misunderstood then as I understood from your comment that you were saying that a PC with the Wizard MCA will automatically be a Universalist because they don't have an Arcane School.
Despite that I'm a bit confused as to what you are saying should be granted and by what though still as it sounds like you're saying that the MCA Feat Arcane School Spell grants you an Arcane School when it patently does not, it grants you ONLY the initial School Spell- it does NOT make you an Evoker/Conjurer etc.
There is currently no way to become a Universalist if your primary Class is anything except Wizard since the ONLY path to becoming a Universalist is to have the Arcane School Wizard Class Ability, 100% of the rules guiding what a Universalist are is self-enclosed in that Ability alone.
Don’t be silly. Universalist is a designation. “This reading” doesn’t give you all that arcane school stuff. You get only what is in the dedication feat. It’s a label.A universalist is defined in Arcane School, but nothing says you need that class feature to earn the designation. Any wizard without a school focus is by default and definition a universalist.By this reading that also means that all MCA Wizards gain a free Wizard Feat, a free 1st level spell and a non-functional ability to Drain Bonded Item too.
Doesn't make sense. The Universalist rules only ever apply when the Arcane School Wizard Class Ability is in play which is not something that the MCA feat can ever grant currently.
Ah good. So everyone is a Universalist Wizard then, right? Fighters, Barbarians and Universalist Druids and all that?
Or are only Wizards Universalists, a "designation" that they are granted specifically by the Arcane School ability at 1st level? As ability that MC Wizards do not possess, and thus do not gain any "designation" from?
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Don’t be silly. Universalist is a designation. “This reading” doesn’t give you all that arcane school stuff. You get only what is in the dedication feat. It’s a label.A universalist is defined in Arcane School, but nothing says you need that class feature to earn the designation. Any wizard without a school focus is by default and definition a universalist.By this reading that also means that all MCA Wizards gain a free Wizard Feat, a free 1st level spell and a non-functional ability to Drain Bonded Item too.
Doesn't make sense. The Universalist rules only ever apply when the Arcane School Wizard Class Ability is in play which is not something that the MCA feat can ever grant currently.
Perhaps I misunderstood then as I understood from your comment that you were saying that a PC with the Wizard MCA will automatically be a Universalist because they don't have an Arcane School.
Despite that I'm a bit confused as to what you are saying should be granted and by what though still as it sounds like you're saying that the MCA Feat Arcane School Spell grants you an Arcane School when it patently does not, it grants you ONLY the initial School Spell- it does NOT make you an Evoker/Conjurer etc.
There is currently no way to become a Universalist if your primary Class is anything except Wizard since the ONLY path to becoming a Universalist is to have the Arcane School Wizard Class Ability, 100% of the rules guiding what a Universalist are is self-enclosed in that Ability alone.
The feat clearly tells you to select an arcane school. If you select conjuration, that makes you a conjurer.
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Don’t be silly. Universalist is a designation. “This reading” doesn’t give you all that arcane school stuff. You get only what is in the dedication feat. It’s a label.A universalist is defined in Arcane School, but nothing says you need that class feature to earn the designation. Any wizard without a school focus is by default and definition a universalist.By this reading that also means that all MCA Wizards gain a free Wizard Feat, a free 1st level spell and a non-functional ability to Drain Bonded Item too.
Doesn't make sense. The Universalist rules only ever apply when the Arcane School Wizard Class Ability is in play which is not something that the MCA feat can ever grant currently.
Ah good. So everyone is a Universalist Wizard then, right? Fighters, Barbarians and Universalist Druids and all that?
Or are only Wizards Universalists, a "designation" that they are granted specifically by the Arcane School ability at 1st level? As ability that MC Wizards do not possess, and thus do not gain any "designation" from?
Wizards aren't "granted" universalist by the Arcane School class feature. That feature merely notes that all wizards are universalists unless and until they select an Arcane School.
In fact, Universalist Wizard is its own heading separate from Arcane School.
Instead of specializing narrowly in an arcane school, you can be a universalist wizard—by studying all the schools equally, you devote yourself to understanding the full breadth of the arcane arts.
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Dude, that's just incorrect. Go pick up the book again, give it another read. I don't know how else to spell it out for you, you're bringing interpretation into this where there is none to be had. You mention that it has a different heading but you're wholesale ignoring what the relevant Arcane School Ability description(CRB pg. 204) wherein it describes the Ability itself and THIS is where the Wizard is granted the ability to choose to be a Universalist.
The rest of the text and the Universalist Wizards heading a few pages later has bearing whatsoever on it being a School of its own, it exists to describe the unique benefits of choosing rather than any of the Arcane Schools. You might also note that it has a different stylization than the rest of the Schools, I'm confident this was on purpose so that people do not make the mistake of thinking that Universalists have an Arcane School Specialization.
A Universalist is a Wizard who has the Arcane School Class Ability (This is not something that is granted by the MCA Feat) but instead chooses NOT to specialize and in exchange for this choice they gain the Universalist benefits, it's all directly and irrevocably tied to the Arcane School Ability itself.
The Arcane School Spell MCA Feat also only points to the Arcane School for you to choose a School for the purposes of gaining the Focus Spell, nowhere in this Feat does it say that you are granted the Arcane School Wizard Class Ability.
There is no such thing as a non-Wizard Conjurer/Necromancer/Universalist, they don't exist bro. I want to help you understand and I'm sorry if this is blunt but you're just plain wrong.
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I don't know how to improve your reading comprehension, metricsystem. Either a wizard is a specialist, or they are a universalist. These aren't abilities and aren't "granted" by the Arcane School class feature.
Wizards have the option to choose a school to specialize in. If they elect not to, they are universalists. It's that simple, and the Wizard section is laid out to make this apparent.
What is missing for you?
I don't know how to improve your reading comprehension, metricsystem. Either a wizard is a specialist, or they are a universalist. These aren't abilities and aren't "granted" by the Arcane School class feature.
Wizards have the option to choose a school to specialize in. If they elect not to, they are universalists. It's that simple, and the Wizard section is laid out to make this apparent.
What is missing for you?
The use of such a "classification" system literally anywhere else in the book for a start.
Arcane Schools, or the lack of one, serve the same purpose to a Wizard as Rackets do to Rogues. Or Hunter's Edge does for Ranger, specialized weapon for Fighter, Deity and Domain for Cleric and Paladin, Instinct for Barbarian and Muse for Bard. Oh and Bloodline for Sorcerer.
The various Archetypes spell out when you do or don't qualify as having or not having those various "descriptors", and what benefits you do or do not gain from them.
The Wizard archetype is bereft of any such language until you take an Arcane School spell. Therefore you are not either in a school, or specifically a "Universalist" before taking said feat. If the intention was to make such characters Universalists, why wouldn't Paizo have included such in the feat itself?
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I don't know how to improve your reading comprehension, metricsystem. Either a wizard is a specialist, or they are a universalist. These aren't abilities and aren't "granted" by the Arcane School class feature.
Wizards have the option to choose a school to specialize in. If they elect not to, they are universalists. It's that simple, and the Wizard section is laid out to make this apparent.
What is missing for you?
Literally every source, electronic resource, advice thread and common reading of the rules agreed that Universalist isn't an Arcane School Specialization, we can certainly agree on that.
If you're trying to say that the Arcane School Abilities aren't granted by the Arance School Class Feature... I don't know what to tell you, that's like saying the Rage for a Barbarian isn't granted by the Rage Class Feature, I think maybe you're a bit too dedicated to the position you're trying to argue for here because there is no RAW or RAI behind what you support at all.
Find the Wizard Table 3-18 and look at level 1. Right there you will see "arcane school" listed with the Class Features, this is a distinct and unique Class Feature. Now, go find the section that defines what this does and you will not that included in the description is the wording that grants a Wizard the ability to be a Universalist. The section that you're reading further on only exists to help organize the Universalist benefits in the same section that the Arcane Schools are located.
Here is an example of something I'm confident that will someday exist: A Wizard Class Archetype that trades out Arcane School for something else (Let us call it X). Now, since this Wizard who took this Archetype does not have the Arcane School Class Feature, they are neither a Specialist nor are they a Universalist and the PC would explicitly NOT get any benefits from anything linked to the Arcane School Class Feature which includes EVERYTHING that has to do with being a Universalist. So they'd gain X Class Feature and would NOT be a Universalist.
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The use of such a "classification" system literally anywhere else in the book for a start.
Are you not familiar with the setting?
Arcane Schools, or the lack of one, serve the same purpose to a Wizard as Rackets do to Rogues. Or Hunter's Edge does for Ranger, specialized weapon for Fighter, Deity and Domain for Cleric and Paladin, Instinct for Barbarian and Muse for Bard. Oh and Bloodline for Sorcerer.
No, but they are very similar. Those options for other classes are all presented equally. No other class has a null option like the universalist wizard. For a wizard, you can choose a school, but if you don't have one you are a universalist. You can tell because every other archetype has you make those choices in the dedication. Only the wizard gives you an option to specialize with a later feat.
The various Archetypes spell out when you do or don't qualify as having or not having those various "descriptors", and what benefits you do or do not gain from them.
No, the archetypes spell out what rules options you have access to. As the null option, no wizard gains or qualifies for being universalist. It is merely the result of not making the choice to specialize. Universalist is just the word for not selecting an arcane school of magic.
The Wizard archetype is bereft of any such language until you take an Arcane School spell. Therefore you are not either in a school, or specifically a "Universalist" before taking said feat. If the intention was to make such characters Universalists, why wouldn't Paizo have included such in the feat itself?
I think you are confused about what it means for the wizard archetype to be structured as it is. See above.
If you're trying to say that the Arcane School Abilities aren't granted by the Arance School Class Feature... I don't know what to tell you, that's like saying the Rage for a Barbarian isn't granted by the Rage Class Feature, I think maybe you're a bit too dedicated to the position you're trying to argue for here because there is no RAW or RAI behind what you support at all.
Look more closely. There is nothing in the Arcane Schools feature about being a universalist except a note that if you don't select an arcane school, you are called a universalist. Universalist Wizards is a separate heading.
Find the Wizard Table 3-18 and look at level 1. Right there you will see "arcane school" listed with the Class Features, this is a distinct and unique Class Feature. Now, go find the section that defines what this does and you will not that included in the description is the wording that grants a Wizard the ability to be a Universalist. The section that you're reading further on only exists to help organize the Universalist benefits in the same section that the Arcane Schools are located.
Look more closely. There is nothing in the Arcane Schools feature about being a universalist except a note that if you don't select an arcane school, you are called a universalist. Universalist Wizards is a separate heading.
Text trumps table.
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Dude, I'll just quote the rules in their entirety then...
Arcane School
Many arcane spellcasters delve deeply into a single school of magic in an attempt to master its secrets. If you want to be a specialist wizard, choose a school in which to specialize. You gain additional spells and spell slots for spells of your school.
If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist, a wizard who believes that the path to true knowledge of magic requires a multidisciplinary understanding of all eight schools working together. Though a universalist lacks the focus of a specialist wizard, they have greater flexibility.
These are the rules for the Class Feature (Arcane School) right there in plain text. As you can see the rules which grant you the ability to choose to become a Universalist is self-enclosed here. Here is the text that is relevant, without this Ability there is no way to become a Specialist or Universalist - period. To even MAKE the choice which allows you to be a Specialist or Universalist you need to have this Class Feature, it's as simple as that.
You're confusing yourself by mistakenly thinking that the text from pg. 209 has any bearing whatsoever outside of the context of how the Arcane School Class Feature works. Without the Class Feature, which is the source of where the Universalist benefits come from, a PC is not a Specialist of any School and they are not a Universalist.
This is RAW. If you want to run it differently in your own games and give every Character with the MCA Dedication Feat for Wizard all of the Universalist benefits as soon as it's taken (Minus the benefit to Arcane Bond which is also inaccessible), more power to you but that is EXACTLY what you position is advocating if you think that the Universalist Prereqs are not tied to the Arcane School Class Feature. This is the Rules forums though, we are here to talk about how things actually work and not how you want them to function.
Let's illustrate it another way, I hope this helps.
Example Class Grants A, B, C, D, E, & F Class Features first level.
"C" allows the Character to choose a subset of options 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 OR not choose at all, in which case they gain X.
To gain "X" you still need to be given access to "C" which is where the option to select "X" is located. "X" is a distinct sub-selection of the options granted by "C" regardless of how it's phrased as a "non-decision," it's still a selection the Character chooses based on the options arrayed in "C."
Example Class has a Multiclass Archetype associated with it. The MCA Dedication does not grant "C" and none of the MCA Feats grant access to "C" and therefore there is no way to gain access to "X" for this character because "C" is never granted to the Character with said MCA Dedication Feat.
This summarizes the Class Feature relationship between Arcane School and Universalist and I really hope it helps people understand how this works.
In the eternal wisdom of Rush
You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
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So yes, there is a distinction between a Universalist and a wizard who hasn't selected a school. The game doesn't allow a wizard to be the latter, and doesn't allow a wizard dedicated character to be the former.
"If you specialize in an arcane school, rather than studying each school equally (as universalists do)": picking a school vs NOT picking a school.
"Instead of specializing narrowly in an arcane school, you can become a universalist wizard—by studying all the schools equally, you devote yourself to understanding the full breadth of the arcane arts.": again, NOT picking a school. so they VERY much can be the later. It's an option of specialist vs generalist. The very definition of generalist is someone that doesn't specialize.
What if I want to play a wizard who doesn't have a school , but who also doesn't believe that the path to true knowledge of magic requires a multidisciplinary understanding of all eight schools working together?
Huh? "by studying all the schools equally, you devote yourself to understanding the full breadth of the arcane arts": it's like saying that you just study general medicine vs pediatric medicine where the general practitioner keeps track of all medical news where the pediatric practitioner keeps up mainly with their specialty.
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I will also say I know the Pathbuilder resource isn't official (not sure what level of affiliation they have with Paizo, if at all) but they do not count choosing not to make a Arcane School choice as selecting Universalist by default nor do they present it as an option from the Arcane School listing.
So in that highly rated and reviewed app doing as some have suggested and trying to become a Universalist by default through not selecting a school does not in fact grant you any ability to access Hand of the Apprentice.
I wouldn't say this is definitive evidence but it is worth considering in my opinion.
I personally favor the reading of the rules that since the Archetype tells you to pick a school and we all know what the "Schools of Magic" are (Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation) the Main Wizard Class option Universalist really shouldn't be an option for someone who just has the Wizard Archetype feat.
I would also say the Wizard Archetype feat text itself is a bit at odds with the Universalist option.
"Wizard
Source Core Rulebook pg. 231
You have dabbled in the arcane arts and, through discipline and academic study, learned how to cast a few spells."
"Universalist
Source Core Rulebook pg. 210
Instead of specializing narrowly in an arcane school, you can become a universalist wizard—by studying all the schools equally, you devote yourself to understanding the full breadth of the arcane arts. For each level of spell you can cast, you can use Drain Bonded item once per day to recall a spell of that level (instead of using it only once per day in total). You gain an extra wizard class feat, and you add one 1st-level spell of your choice to your spellbook."
Some could dismiss it a s flavor text but it doesn't really make a lot of sense of my mind to merely dabble in devoting yourself to the full breadth of the arcane arts.
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So yes, there is a distinction between a Universalist and a wizard who hasn't selected a school. The game doesn't allow a wizard to be the latter, and doesn't allow a wizard dedicated character to be the former."If you specialize in an arcane school, rather than studying each school equally (as universalists do)": picking a school vs NOT picking a school.
"Instead of specializing narrowly in an arcane school, you can become a universalist wizard—by studying all the schools equally, you devote yourself to understanding the full breadth of the arcane arts.": again, NOT picking a school. so they VERY much can be the later. It's an option of specialist vs generalist. The very definition of generalist is someone that doesn't specialize.
What if I want to play a wizard who doesn't have a school , but who also doesn't believe that the path to true knowledge of magic requires a multidisciplinary understanding of all eight schools working together?Huh? "by studying all the schools equally, you devote yourself to understanding the full breadth of the arcane arts": it's like saying that you just study general medicine vs pediatric medicine where the general practitioner keeps track of all medical news where the pediatric practitioner keeps up mainly with their specialty.
A character with a Multiclass dedication is not that class though. If you're an artist who studies medicine as a hobby, which is basically what the MC dedication Feats are, you're not a GP who has devoted himself to learning a great deal about every part of medicine, you're just an artist who knows some stuff about medicine.
There is a vast difference between being a Wizard who devotes himself to studying all of the schools equally, and a Fighter with Wizard Dedication who doesn't study anything at all, beyond the few spells he's learned.
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A character with a Multiclass dedication is not that class though.
They are in the game though. "Archetypes with the multiclass trait represent diversifying your training into another class’s specialties."
If you're an artist who studies medicine as a hobby, which is basically what the MC dedication Feats are, you're not a GP who has devoted himself to learning a great deal about every part of medicine, you're just an artist who knows some stuff about medicine.
Not so. For the feats they take, they count as 100% that class: if that artist took a medicine class feat, they are 100% a medic. You have wizard spell slots that cast wizard spells and you can take wizard feats. If I take Advanced School Spell and take Life Siphon I can use it even though it has "Trigger You expend one of your wizard spell slots to cast a wizard spell of the necromancy school." You have access to a wizards refocus. If you were a multiclass with Component Substitutions, you can use them.
There is a vast difference between being a Wizard who devotes himself to studying all of the schools equally, and a Fighter with Wizard Dedication who doesn't study anything at all, beyond the few spells he's learned.
I don't recall mentioning ANY of this in the post of theservantsllcleanitup's I replied to. Universalist being a school or not is a different but related issue.
I think you are missing the distinction here. If your character does not want to "delve deeply into a single school in an attempt to master its secrets", but also doesn't personally believe "that the path to true knowledge of magic requires a multidisciplinary understanding of all eight schools working together", what do you do? Nothing. You can't play such a wizard, by the rules. Every wizard [i]must/[t] choose one of those paths.
I understand the distinction you are trying to make but I just don't agree it's a distinction here. IMO "delve deeply into a single school in an attempt to master its secrets", but also doesn't personally believe "that the path to true knowledge of magic requires a multidisciplinary understanding of all eight schools working together" is a flowery way to say "you are a generalist": the generalist 100% understands the "multidisciplinary understanding of all eight schools" and that is what the multiclass wizard has. They can pick and fill every slot with with whatever arcane spell no matter the school meaning they have an "understanding of all eight schools" that isn't "specializing narrowly in an arcane school".
IMO, you distinction you are trying to make doesn't exist and doesn't prove what you think it does.
In other words, Universalist is not simply someone who has not elected to specialize
It's LITERALLY what it says it is. "Instead of specializing narrowly in an arcane school, you can become a universalist wizard". Not specializing LITERALLY means "multipurpose", "all-around", "general-purpose", "unrestricted", ect.
it's someone who actively believes that not specializing is the path to enlightenment.
Huh? IMO, you're reading WAY more into it that then is actually in the text.
I understand the argument that graystone and GM of Anything are trying to make. An MC Wizard is not a specialist, and therefore would be a universalist by default.
The difference is whether that MC Wizard qualifies as a Universalist with a Capital U. RAW, I don't see this being the case. I don't see any specific language used in the Archetype that indicates this distinction. I don't see any language in Wizard Arcane School class feature that indicates that it applies to anything but a straight up Wizard, including the "non-choice" choice of Universalist.
There are three distinct ways that every other archetype handles specialization options from their core class.
1. You choose a specialization when you take the feat, and the feat lists what benefits you do or do not gain. Barbarian, Bard, Champion, Cleric, Druid and Sorcerer take this route.
2. You never choose a specialization at all. Alchemist, Fighter, Ranger and Rogue take this route.
3. You don't choose a specialization up front, then have the option to specialize with further feats. Monk takes this route, allowing you to take ki abilities or stances with feats.
The Wizard archetype most closely follows option 3 in my opinion. Then again, Monk is in a league of its own where specialization comes in, there are no "major" specializations that you pick at 1st level that aren't feats, unlike Rogue Rackets or Ranger's Edges.
Wizard puts itself in an odd place as it doesn't follow the standard so to speak for each other casting tradition. You dont' get a choice of school when you take the feat, and you have the option to make such a decision later with a feat. With that in mind, I suppose the only real option any of us have is to examine exactly what the Wizard Dedication provides.
With that in mind, I restate my position. You don't get to pick a school when you take the feat, therefore you are not granted any benefit that would come from that decision. The feat is simply silent on the matter. Up thread I suggested you approach the feat as though you were a new player who was dabbling at multiclassing into Wizard, but had never read the relevant class. If you read just the feat and the relevant passages from Wizard that it leads you to, with no foreknowledge of how Arcane School works, you would have no idea that there was ever the option to be a Universalist.
So why would the Archetype allow you to be something that it doesn't let you know you can be?
Edit: I suppose you can move Fighter into the 3rd column. It also doesn't really specialize until later levels. C'est la vie.
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The whole point of this discussion is whether the wizard multi class dedication qualifies your character as a Universalist despite no text indicating that it does. I'm not really reading into the text nearly as much as you seem to think.
What it DOES say is that Universalist isn't a school but a lack of a school. If something told you to pick a school, you couldn't pick Universalist: it's not one. "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist": did a multiclass wizard pick a school?
Being a Universalist gives mechanical benefits.
Sure, but without the school feature it's access to 2 feats period.
It represents something your character has pursued and achieved, as does specializing in a school.
NO it doesn't: there is where you're reading into it. NOT specializing isn't instead specializing in all the schools at once as you seem to think. It's taking your time with them all vs neglecting the whole to focus on the narrow field. What was "pursued and achieved" was 'basic wizard 101'...
It's not a stretch to imagine that somewhere out there, there is a wizard who didn't specialize, didn't pursue Universalism
I'd agree it's not a stretch because you went way past a stretch IMO. The class says you are one or the other so at present if it's neither, it's not a wizard but some other class.
What I think qualifies as reading too far into the rules is assuming that the MCD bestows a class feature without mentioning it in any way because "you don't have a school, and therefore you HAVE to be a Universalist". I think there is a middle ground, that's all.
No one said you get the feature. At all. Not even a little... No one is claiming you get an extra feat or more drains per day: ie, the feature in question.
"You either specialize in one of the eight schools of magic, gaining deeper understanding of the nuances of those spells above all others, or favor a broader approach that emphasizes the way all magic comes together at the expense of depth." This is under the description of the wizard itself before you even get into features. NONE of the other classes with features that offer selections get mentioned in the description.
The difference is whether that MC Wizard qualifies as a Universalist with a Capital U. RAW, I don't see this being the case.
You can't be granted a null option. That doesn't make sense logically. Maybe it is FAQ worthy, but you don't need to be granted something you already have. With the RAW we have, an MC Wizard is a Universalist.
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The whole point of this discussion is whether the wizard multi class dedication qualifies your character as a Universalist despite no text indicating that it does. I'm not really reading into the text nearly as much as you seem to think.What it DOES say is that Universalist isn't a school but a lack of a school. If something told you to pick a school, you couldn't pick Universalist: it's not one. "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist": did a multiclass wizard pick a school?
It ALSO says that you GAIN the Universalist Benefits from the Arcane School Class Feature itself, it's not granted by any other ability regardless of being defined later in the Wizard entry.
The ability is granted to you by selecting the "All Schools Equally" option that is offered by Arcane School. If you don't have a feat that explicitly states that you gain the actual Arcane School Class Feature, you do NOT get it and are left bereft of the option of choosing Universalist as an option.
It's not something that's just automatically granted to MCA Wizards.
That said we are all talking in circles past each other at this point but I too think it is fair to point at the industry professionals who handle these kinds of discrete readings of RAW such as the Spreadsheet Authors, App and product developers all agree that Universalist is a sub-selection of the Arcane School Class Feature and it does not exist as it's own thing that applies to any MCA dedicated Wizard.
It's super-duper simple: Ability X grants you options, one of which is labeled and described as a non-selection of the other options but it doesn't change the fact that this choice is irrevocably tied to Ability X which grants you the choice in the first place.
Now, beyond all that this helps highlight places where I am CONFIDENT more content will be created down the road in the form of more Wizard Multiclass Feat options, one of which is almost certainly bound to be a Universalist MCA Wizard Feat that allows something comparable to the Arcane School Spell Feat. If you want this for your home games, just homebrew it, it practically designs itself, but for any organized games you're going to have a hard time justifying why your Druid has Universalist benefits.
A FAQ for this would probably be a wise idea given the different perspectives and interpretations of the issue, that much is certain.
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It ALSO says that you GAIN the Universalist Benefits from the Arcane School Class Feature itself, it's not granted by any other ability regardless of being defined later in the Wizard entry.
And? I covered that with "No one is claiming you get an extra feat or more drains per day". No one is talking about that. Throw out Arcane School Class Feature from the debate. How about "You either specialize in one of the eight schools of magic, gaining deeper understanding of the nuances of those spells above all others, or favor a broader approach that emphasizes the way all magic comes together at the expense of depth."
The ability is granted to you by selecting the "All Schools Equally" option that is offered by Arcane School.
"If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist" doesn't SOUND like you're picking that but what happens if you do not pick a school.
I too think it is fair to point at the industry professionals who handle these kinds of discrete readings of RAW such as the Spreadsheet Authors, App and product developers all agree that Universalist is a sub-selection of the Arcane School Class Feature and it does not exist as it's own thing that applies to any MCA dedicated Wizard.
ALL of them? You've contacted them all, done a survey and all 100% of the entire hobbies "industry professionals" agree? Please point me to this evidence... I'd like to look over that spreadsheet and check the test protocols.
It's super-duper simple
I agree: "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist" sounds "super-duper simple" to me.
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It ALSO says that you GAIN the Universalist Benefits from the Arcane School Class Feature itself, it's not granted by any other ability regardless of being defined later in the Wizard entry.And? I covered that with "No one is claiming you get an extra feat or more drains per day". No one is talking about that. Throw out Arcane School Class Feature from the debate. How about "You either specialize in one of the eight schools of magic, gaining deeper understanding of the nuances of those spells above all others, or favor a broader approach that emphasizes the way all magic comes together at the expense of depth."
The ability is granted to you by selecting the "All Schools Equally" option that is offered by Arcane School."If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist" doesn't SOUND like you're picking that but what happens if you do not pick a school.
I too think it is fair to point at the industry professionals who handle these kinds of discrete readings of RAW such as the Spreadsheet Authors, App and product developers all agree that Universalist is a sub-selection of the Arcane School Class Feature and it does not exist as it's own thing that applies to any MCA dedicated Wizard.ALL of them? You've contacted them all, done a survey and all 100% of the entire hobbies "industry professionals" agree? Please point me to this evidence... I'd like to look over that spreadsheet and check the test protocols.
It's super-duper simpleI agree: "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist" sounds "super-duper simple" to me.
All of this is an wonderful FAQ for what happens when you pick a school, or don't, when you make a Wizard at 1st level. What it does not include is anything to do with the Wizard archetype.
You cast spells like a wizard, gaining a spellbook with four
common arcane cantrips of your choice. You gain the Cast a
Spell activity. You can prepare two cantrips each day from
your spellbook. You’re trained in arcane spell attack rolls
and spell DCs. Your key spellcasting ability for wizard
archetype spells is Int, and they are arcane wizard
spells. You become trained in Arcana; if you were
already trained in Arcana, you instead become trained
in a skill of your choice.
Special You can’t select another dedication feat until you
have gained two other feats from the wizard archetype.
Note anything missing here? Choosing a school. Being a Universalist. Any indication that you would gain any benefit thereof, up to and including qualifying for feats.
Earlier GM of Anything said that they agreed that you don't gain anything that a feat doesn't say you gain. Well that's a bold faced lie if they are saying that you count as a Universalist after taking this Dedication. RAW there is nothing, not one scrap of evidence, that you are a Universalist. The only way you can make that claim is if you are reading from the Core Wizard class. Which you should not be, unless the dedication specifically references that section like stating that you cast a spell as a Wizard.
Again, I challenge you to approach the dedication as a new player. Read only the dedication and any section that the dedication leads you to, like preparing spells, casting spells, etc... You would have no clue that Universalist was even a thing.
Again I ask: Why would a dedication give you a benefit that it does not tell you, in clear words, that you gain?
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Note anything missing here? Choosing a school.
"You either specialize in one of the eight schools of magic, gaining deeper understanding of the nuances of those spells above all others, or favor a broader approach that emphasizes the way all magic comes together at the expense of depth.": basic description of what it means to be a wizard. NOT in the school section.
Again, I challenge you to approach the dedication as a new player. Read only the dedication and any section that the dedication leads you to, like preparing spells, casting spells, etc... You would have no clue that Universalist was even a thing.
I'm a new player. I multiclass into wizard so I look at the class [I have to as I can access to wizard feats through multiclass feats]. The FIRST thing I see is "You either specialize in one of the eight schools of magic, gaining deeper understanding of the nuances of those spells above all others, or favor a broader approach that emphasizes the way all magic comes together at the expense of depth." I look into it further and see "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist". Then I think back and the feat didn't ask me to pick a school, so that must mean I'm a universalist as I didn't pick a school. Or are you saying that people that multiclass never look at the class they actually multiclass into?
Again I ask: Why would a dedication give you a benefit that it does not tell you, in clear words, that you gain?
Could be they thought it was obvious, an editing error, or any number of reasons. The only "benefit" is access to 2 feats so it's not hard to imagine it was overlooked: add to that that it sits in a weird 'not a school but put in the school section for reasons' and it doesn't seem odd to me that it sits in a weird place: To be honest, I don't see why they just didn't have the wizard pick a school.
Take their Arcane School Spell: it's not even clear if you count as that school just for the focus spell or count as it for other things. Look at the others
"You have that instinct for all purposes and become bound by its anathema, but you don’t gain any of the other abilities it grants."
"You become a member of that order and are bound by its anathema, allowing you to take the order’s feats."
"Choose a muse as you would if you were a bard. You have that muse for all purposes, allowing you to take that muse’s feats, but you don’t gain any of the other abilities it grants."
I'm not sure pointing at wizard archetype and asking for "clear words" is a point in your favor. For instance look at barbarian and bard with CLEAR rules on what you count as and then look at wizard or sorcerer: can you prove that a sorcerer/wizard can take a feat that requires a school/bloodline that's pointed out in "clear words"?
Note anything missing here? Choosing a school."You either specialize in one of the eight schools of magic, gaining deeper understanding of the nuances of those spells above all others, or favor a broader approach that emphasizes the way all magic comes together at the expense of depth.": basic description of what it means to be a wizard. NOT in the school section.
Yes. Basic description of what it means to be a Wizard. NOT a Multiclassed Wizard with the Archetype.
You have dabbled in the arcane arts and, through discipline
and academic study, learned how to cast a few spells.
No mention of schools in the flavor text here is there? Unless otherwise specified, anything contained in a Class is only speaking about that class. The dedications are generally structured to tell you what you do and do not gain from those classes.
Again, I challenge you to approach the dedication as a new player. Read only the dedication and any section that the dedication leads you to, like preparing spells, casting spells, etc... You would have no clue that Universalist was even a thing.I'm a new player. I multiclass into wizard so I look at the class [I have to as I can access to wizard feats through multiclass feats]. The FIRST thing I see is "You either specialize in one of the eight schools of magic, gaining deeper understanding of the nuances of those spells above all others, or favor a broader approach that emphasizes the way all magic comes together at the expense of depth." I look into it further and see "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist". Then I think back and the feat didn't ask me to pick a school, so that must mean I'm a universalist as I didn't pick a school. Or are you saying that people that multiclass never look at the class they actually multiclass into?
Sure. If you go through and read the class as though you were building a character of that class, you would see that bit. But if instead you did what most of my players do, and only read the sections on spellcasting, you know what the dedication clearly grants you, you won't find any hint that schools are a thing or that they could ever apply to you. Until you take Arcane Spell school and it leads you to the Arcane Schools section.
Again I ask: Why would a dedication give you a benefit that it does not tell you, in clear words, that you gain?Could be they thought it was obvious, an editing error, or any number of reasons. The only "benefit" is access to 2 feats so it's not hard to imagine it was overlooked: add to that that it sits in a weird 'not a school but put in the school section for reasons' and it doesn't seem odd to me that it sits in a weird place: To be honest, I don't see why they just didn't have the wizard pick a school.
Or they don't intend for a MC Wizard to be as "specialized" or "focused" on magic as an all up wizard, and thus they can't ever be a "Universalist. They may be able to stretch their dabbling into a specific school with Arcane Spell School, but that doesn't mean they are spending enough of their time studying to qualify as a Universalist or even an actual member of the Arcane School they choose with Arcane Spell School.
Take their Arcane School Spell: it's not even clear if you count as that school just for the focus spell or count as it for other things. Look at the others
"You have that instinct for all purposes and become bound by its anathema, but you don’t gain any of the other abilities it grants."
"You become a member of that order and are bound by its anathema, allowing you to take the order’s feats."
"Choose a muse as you would if you were a bard. You have that muse for all purposes, allowing you to take that muse’s feats, but you don’t gain any of the other abilities it grants."I'm not sure pointing at wizard archetype and asking for "clear words" is a point in your favor. For instance look at barbarian and bard with CLEAR rules on what you count as and then look at wizard or sorcerer: can you prove that a sorcerer/wizard can take a feat that requires a school/bloodline that's pointed out in "clear words"?
It definitely is. If you only read the dedication feat and don't apply anything it doesn't tell you to apply, you would never qualify as a Universalist. I believe this is the intention.
I agree that there could be an omission here, perhaps Dedication feats went through a revision and Wizard was left out of the "new" wording paradigm used. Maybe all dedication feats were as vague at one point, then someone pointed out that in the case of a Barbarian or sorcerer what you do and don't gain from a bloodline or instinct needs to be clear, but the Wizard didn't get updated wording.
There are tons of different scenarios that could have happened. But what we are left with is the wording that we have. And you of all people should be ashamed that you are reaching this far out of the wording in this particular case.
For all the times you harp on others for posting about "house rules" or "advice" in the Rules forum, you should really take a closer look at what you are spouting here.
Nothing in the Wizard dedication feat indicates that you benefit in any way from any arcane school, or a lack of choosing one. You never get the choice. So as worded right now there is no way to be a Universalist.
The Sorcerer dedication clearly allows you to choose a bloodline. It's the first line. Then at the end they state that you don't gain any other abilities from your choice of bloodline. This being the case, you would count as a Sorcerer of that bloodline for the purposes of feat qualification.
The Wizard dedication doesn't mention schools at all. Arcane School spell doesn't allow you to "choose" a school like a Sorcerer chooses a bloodline. Instead you "select" a school and gain that school's initial power. Are you now a member of that school? Perhaps, the feat doesn't state that you don't gain the other benefits of membership with that school. You can't 1 for 1 compare the two as they use completely different wording imho.
This is problematic as it indicates that you also gain your School Spell slot and an additional spell to slot into it. I don't think this is the intention. But that is it's own separate issue.
Does that make you eligible to take Advanced School Spell at 16th? I would say yes as Arcane School spell doesn't say you don't qualify.
Note anything missing here? Choosing a school."You either specialize in one of the eight schools of magic, gaining deeper understanding of the nuances of those spells above all others, or favor a broader approach that emphasizes the way all magic comes together at the expense of depth.": basic description of what it means to be a wizard. NOT in the school section.
But that is entirely his point: A true Wizard chooses a school as part of being a Wizard. It is basically a class feature.
But the dedication feat does *not* let you chose a school.
It is like you if get a feat that gives you a +1 competence bonus to your shield bonus to AC. Your argument is that your AC goes up, even when not wielding a shield, because 0 +1 = 1. Except, if you don't wield a shield, you do not have a shield bonus to AC of 0, you don't have a shield bonus, period.
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If you only read the dedication feat
It's very hard for me to imagine that someone taking the multiclass feat doesn't look over the class for that multiclass. This is especially true when you see you have access to the classes feats so you HAVE to go to that section to see if there is anything worth taking. Secondly, specific to the wizard, the second feat in the archetype is Arcane School Spell which requires you to look at the schools. I just can't picture someone NOT looking up these type of things.
But the dedication feat does *not* let you chose a school.
And that's MY point. "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist". So I agree: it doesn't let you pick a school. Where we disagree is what that means.
For all the times you harp on others for posting about "house rules" or "advice" in the Rules forum, you should really take a closer look at what you are spouting here.
Really? I've posted quotes to back up my conclusions. You asked a question that involves inferences and assumptions to respond to: you don't get to accuse me of anything for responding to those questions. f you don't like my answers, don't ask those kind of questions.
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If you only read the dedication featIt's very hard for me to imagine that someone taking the multiclass feat doesn't look over the class for that multiclass. This is especially true when you see you have access to the classes feats so you HAVE to go to that section to see if there is anything worth taking. Secondly, specific to the wizard, the second feat in the archetype is Arcane School Spell which requires you to look at the schools. I just can't picture someone NOT looking up these type of things.
But the dedication feat does *not* let you chose a school.And that's MY point. "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist". So I agree: it doesn't let you pick a school. Where we disagree is what that means.
For all the times you harp on others for posting about "house rules" or "advice" in the Rules forum, you should really take a closer look at what you are spouting here.Really? I've posted quotes to back up my conclusions. You asked a question that involves inferences and assumptions to respond to: you don't get to accuse me of anything for responding to those questions. f you don't like my answers, don't ask those kind of questions.
That is my point. You are inferring that you gain something from Wizard Dedication that you don't. You simply do not gain something it doesn't give you. You are reaching, real hard, into the Wizard Class itself when you aren't actually a wizard with the dedication. Arguably until you take Arcane School Spell, you don't even have to open the Wizard class to have the Wizard dedication. You are at best dabbling with Wizard.
A literal reading of the Dedication, with no input from the Wizard class, mentions nothing about schools.
But for the fun of it, let's examine the Wizard side of the argument.
If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist, a
wizard who believes that the path to true knowledge of
magic requires a multidisciplinary understanding of all
eight schools working together. Though a universalist lacks
the focus of a specialist wizard, they have greater flexibility.
Universalist wizards are described on page 209.
And:
Instead of specializing narrowly in an arcane school, you
can become a universalist wizard—by studying all the
schools equally, you devote yourself to understanding
the full breadth of the arcane arts. For each level of spell
you can cast, you can use Drain Bonded item once per
day to recall a spell of that level (instead of using it only
once per day in total). You gain an extra wizard class
feat, and you add one 1st-level spell of your choice to
your spellbook.
What part of any of this feels like it applies to say, a Fighter dabbling in magic for some utility? How could someone dabbling in magic be seeking a, "understanding of the full breadth of the arcane arts"?
Also, we agree that a MC Wizard, if they were Universalists by default would not gain the Drain Bonded item bonus since they do not have Drain Bonded item. But what about the extra Wizard Class feat? Or the extra 1st Level spell added to their spellbook? They wouldn't have the slot to cast such a spell, but they could have it in their spellbook in anticipation of gaining those slots down the line.
The dedication, if you are intended to be a Universalist by default, should include a line stating what benefits you exactly gain from that designation. Since it doesn't, you would be entitled to any of the benefits that could apply to you. A bonus Wizard feat and an extra spell in your spellbook is pretty nice after all.
But the dedication feat does *not* let you chose a school.And that's MY point. "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist". So I agree: it doesn't let you pick a school. Where we disagree is what that means.
Way to ignore my actual point: You do not have a Wizard School of Unversalist, you do not have a Wizard School *at all*, Universalist or otherwise.
I don't think wizard dedication = universalist. Other dedications will specify when you get to pick a "type" from that class. Wizard doesn't. If you think that the wizard dedication makes you a "universalist" would you also argue that means you get drain bonded item for each spell level, a free wizard class feat, and an extra level spell in your book?
It seems like an attempt at wordplay, not an attempt to use RAW.
I have to agree with the others here. The text defining the 'pick a school or be a universalist' choice is part of the Arcane School class feature. So while, by definition, Wizards who aren't specialists are generalists, it's irrelevant to the Dedication because you never gain that class feature and thus are never subject to the rules text defining that choice.
Specifically regarding Hand of the Apprentice, I think it'd be pretty reasonable to let a multiclass wizard grab the spell. Feels more like a quirk of the rules and its odd place as not-quite-a-school-spell that archetype wizards can't pick it up than a meaningful restriction, but that's less RAW and more imo.
Way to ignore my actual point: You do not have a Wizard School of Unversalist, you do not have a Wizard School *at all*, Universalist or otherwise.
But the dedication feat does *not* let you chose a school.And that's MY point. "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist". So I agree: it doesn't let you pick a school. Where we disagree is what that means.
Universalist is not a wizard school, it is a lack of an arcane school. Therefore, if you don't have an arcane school, you are a universalist.
The text defining the 'pick a school or be a universalist' choice is part of the Arcane School class feature.
It's actually not. The quote "Instead of specializing narrowly in an arcane school, you can become a universalist wizard" (pg 209) is in a section separate from the Arcane school class feature.
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The text defining the 'pick a school or be a universalist' choice is part of the Arcane School class feature.It's actually not. The quote "Instead of specializing narrowly in an arcane school, you can become a universalist wizard" (pg 209) is in a section separate from the Arcane school class feature.
In Nethys it is actually in the Arcane School section but regardless of where it is you're looking for it, if you're not getting the ruling based on the benefits granted by the Archetype feat itself then claiming you have that benefit seems wrong to me.
Universalist is not a wizard school, it is a lack of an arcane school. Therefore, if you don't have an arcane school, you are a universalist.Way to ignore my actual point: You do not have a Wizard School of Unversalist, you do not have a Wizard School *at all*, Universalist or otherwise.
But the dedication feat does *not* let you chose a school.And that's MY point. "If you don’t choose a school, you’re a universalist". So I agree: it doesn't let you pick a school. Where we disagree is what that means.
No, 'Universalist' is the school you belong to if you do not chose to specialise in any particular school of magic. But that is about the difference between, say, a general practitioner and a specialist for heart diseases.
Without a medical licence you aren't a doctor, period. Picking up some medical knowledge by reading up on it in books not only does *not* make you a specialist for heart diseases, it also does *not* make you a general practitioner.
In Nethys it is actually in the Arcane School section but regardless of where it is you're looking for it, if you're not getting the ruling based on the benefits granted by the Archetype feat itself then claiming you have that benefit seems wrong to me.
The text defining the 'pick a school or be a universalist' choice is part of the Arcane School class feature.It's actually not. The quote "Instead of specializing narrowly in an arcane school, you can become a universalist wizard" (pg 209) is in a section separate from the Arcane school class feature.
Yes, this is just another way of looking at it. The benefits of having a 'school' of sorts narratively represent the years of training and education the fledgeling Wizard PC is assumed to have had in a, you guess it, 'Wizard School' of sorts. Or guild, or academy, or private tutor, whatever. It is something the PC paid the price of admission for by making Wizard their main class.
Someone taking a mere dedication feat, on the other hand, did *not* pay that price, and therefore is not entitled to getting the same benefits. Because that feat represents someone merely dabbling in that particular class and therefore also does not grant the thing that is meant to represent all those years spent learning magic.
After all, someone dabbling in Fighter also doesn't get a Fighter's Weapon Specialisation for example. Or Legendary in any weapon for that matter.
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This horse is dead and all those involved have completely exhausted their arguments at this point.
I think it's worth appealing to the Paizo staff directly at this point because it doesn't sound like anybody is backing down and this type of ruling universally (Haha) impacts EVERY Multiclass Wizard and as a result, is something I think that the Organized Play team will at least need to rule on if people are truly as confused about what IS and what is NOT granted by the Dedication Feat.
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I find that prospect a bit unlikely though, from what I can tell the staff usually only gets directly involved if there is a lot of reasonable confusion on something they wish they had laid out better in their published materials or if the community as a whole is really misinterpreting something.
This discussion seems to have a consensus across most but there is a very vocal minority that do not support the same ruling. Hopefully it has generated enough attention though for them to consider adding additional ways to access Hand of the Apprentice in the future.
It's actually not. The quote "Instead of specializing narrowly in an arcane school, you can become a universalist wizard" (pg 209) is in a section separate from the Arcane school class feature.
It actually is. The point at which you make that decision is on page 204-205, under the Arcane School class feature. That rules section references page 209 for a description of those effects. Without that feature, you never reference the rest of the rules for that feature in the first place. That text doesn't do anything for you on its own.