Build concerns


Advice


Had my first character death my last time playing. I've been working on a warpriest build and wanted opinions on whether or not it would work in game as well as I'm hoping. I'm also not 100percent sure of the legality of the spells if I'm honest. I'm wanting to get as close as I can to the controller tanky type. That's why I got the self buffs. And the compel hostility. I also want to be able to clean house while I'm in front drawing attention to myself.

Strength 18
Dexterity 14
Constitution 12
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 15
Charisma 7

AC 17

HP 13

Initiative 8

Greatsword
Scalemail

Armor Proficiency, Heavy
Armor Proficiency, Light
Armor Proficiency, Medium
Improved Initiative
Shield Proficiency
Toughness
Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Weapon Proficiency, Martial(all)
Weapon Proficiency, Simple

Fire blessing
War blessing

Aura
Blessings
Bonus Languages
Fire Strike
Focus Weapon
Sacred Weapon
War Mind

Background trait Courageous or Reactionary

Spells:
Compel hostility
Doom
Stone shield
Hedging weapons
Stunning barrier


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Level 1 Human?

I'd suggest is swapping the Greatsword for a reach weappn if you want to control the battlefield (and eventually get Combat Reflexes, bit it doesn't have to be now).

I'd also recommend swapping your DEX & CON scores if you want to be a tanky type. Even with Toughness 12 CON on a d8 hit dice character isn't suoer tanky.


Yes level one human sorry. I don't know if I want the reach just for the fact that I'm not sure if I understand the mechanics of it all that well. Switch con and dex will make me get hit more though. I can't afford better than scale mail right now.


Well the stats I'd probably start with (assuming PFS style, finishing at level 11) would be: 17, 14, 14, 10, 15, 7.

You don't really need 18 STR at level 1, so you can drop it a little and keep DEX and CON.

The mechanics for reach weapons are that you can't attack the square adjacent to you, but you can attack one square further out. The advantage of this comes from Attacks of Opportunity (AoOs). Note: This works differently for Large creatures, they can attack anyone within 10 feet, they don't have a zone adjacent that they can't attack into)

If someone leaves a square that you threaten (a square that you can attack into) you get a free attack against them (at your full attack bonus).

With a greatsword this only works if someone tries to walk past you, or if someone starts next to you and moves away. With a reach weapon this means anyone approaching you would leave your threatened square while moving to attack you - giving you one free attack before they get to attack you.

It also means that enemies trying to move past you to attack your allies has to move much further to avoid provoking an AoO from you. They often must choose between provoking an attack from you (free attack, yay for you) or spending their entire turn to go the long way around (enemy wasted their turn, yay for you).

The advantage here is the "controlling" aspect. With a greatsword you control a circle 3 squares (15 feet) wide, and threaten 8 squares (while occupying 1 square), essentially controlling a 3x3 square. With a reach weapon you control a circle 5 squares (25 feet) wide and threaten 16 squares (while occupying 1 square and cutting off 8 squares), essentially controlling a 5x5 square.

TLDR: That paragraph got too busy =P Essentially, with a reach weapon you almost tripple the section of the map that you "control".

There are some who believe reach is the only way to play (and I mostly agree with them), but you don't have to go this way. I only recommended it because you mentioned being a "controller tanky type".


Would you recommend ditching toughness or improved initiative for combat reflexes? And how do you feel about protection and luck as blessings?


Wait wait wait. My deity that I changed to to use the glaive let's me use dexterity as my to hit. And makes the glaive interchangeable from a two handed reach to a one handed close range melee. It costs a feat but I can have bladed brush and combat reflexes. And keep my other stats the same but sink into dex and give up strength almost entirely. So if I did that build how should I stat myself out.
I was flirting around with this:

Strength 10
Dexterity 18
Constitution 15
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 15
Charisma 7


Up to you really, Toughness, Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes are all good feats. Remember that everyone gets 1 AoO per turn, so you don't need Combat Reflexes straight away.

I'm not hugely familiar with Warpriests, but let's take a look at the blessings:
Luck looks good (really good).
Protection is ok. The first level ability stacks with almost everything (which is great), but is only a +1, and it scales very slowly. The 10th level ability is not something you'll always use, but when you need it you'll be thankful you have it - it's a good ability.

Luck is good, protection is ok at early levels and gokd from level 10.

For spells:
Compel Hostility looks fine.
Doom is fine, but can be achieved with an intimidate check (you have a low Charisma, so this is fine).
Stone Shield only lasts one round (not great) and might be Oread only? Might have to check with someone more knowledgable than me.
Hedging Weapons and Stunning Barrier both give a Deflection bonus to AC (so won't stack), but they both have offensive apllications, so they're different enough to have both if you like them. The deflection and resistance bonuses from Stunning Barrier will become meaningless very quickly, but stunned is one of the best conditions.

Remember that Warpriests don't have to choose to learn spells, or buy scrolls for a spellbook. Warpriests, Paladins and Clerics automatically know every spell on their spell list as soon as they reach a level they can cast it. At level 1 you know every 1st level cleric spell and Orison. At 4th level you also learn every 2nd level cleric spell. At 7th level you learn every 3rd level cleric spell etc etc. You have to prepare your spells at the beginning of each day, but you can change them out the next day if you don't like them.

My advice is to try the spells out and see what you like and what you don't. You'll quickly fond some are totally useless and some are amazing. Some will be great at low levels but will become useless at higher levels. Since you can change them every day, you'll end up with a good list of spells that are your "go-to" spells, and another list of spells you use in certain circumstances.


So if I did that build how should I stat myself out.
I was flirting around with this:

Strength 10
Dexterity 18
Constitution 15
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 15
Charisma 7

Silver Crusade

I would suggest picking up Combat Reflexes before Improved Initiative. Combat Reflexes allows you to make AoOs when you're flat-footed (i.e. lost Initiative).


If you're going with DEX, your first level feats will be Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Glaive), Bladed brush. You'll want Slashing Grace as your 3rd level feat.

I'd probably keep STR at 13 so you can take Power Attack (take it at level 5/6, you don't need it before then).

Also PCScipio is right, Combat Reflexes is probably better, that might be your bonus 3rd level feat.

For stats I'd probably go 13, 17, 14, 12 15, 7 (I like skill points).


Bladed brush is effectively an upgrade version of that:

Benefit(s): You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).

As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.


Yup Bladed Brush lets you add your DEX to attack rolls with a Glaive (with Weapon Finesse), but it doesn't do anything for your damage rolls. If you went 18 DEX and 10 STR you'd be dealing 1d10+0 damage.

Slashing Grace allows you to add your DEX to damage rolls, but not attack rolls. If you combine both these feats you'll be dealing 1d10+4* damage per hit.

If you lower your DEX slightly and keep your STR at 13, then up your DEX at level 4, then by level 6 with Power Attack you'll be dealing 1d10+8 damage per hit (with a -2 to your attack rolls).

*(I'm not sure how Bladed brush interacts with the rule about 1.5x damage from STR/Power Attack. If it works in your favour then those numbers would be 1d10+6, and 1d10+12 respectively.)

Silver Crusade

@Dodgerkeen: Here's a link to help understand how reach weapons and AoOs work. Highly recommend you watch that entertaining video. The way you've changed that up has more than doubled your Warpriest's damage output over the greatsword.

Silver Crusade

MrCharisma wrote:
*(I'm not sure how Bladed brush interacts with the rule about 1.5x damage from STR/Power Attack. If it works in your favour then those numbers would be 1d10+6, and 1d10+12 respectively.)

I presume that you'd have to be wielding the Glaive one-handed to benefit from Slashing Grace. So I would imagine that you wouldn't get 1.5 x dex damage (not that I'm an expert on Bladed Brush).


I don't know if slashing grace and bladed brush stack, but if they do the character generator I'm using doesn't do the math on it's own to attach the dex to the glaives damage. That's assuming power attack stacks too? I'd assume it would considering it mentioned attack based feats working off dex.

I need to redo my spells though. All of those were level one spells.


They stack. You might have to do the maths yourself.

Power Attack stacks with everything (except Piranha Strike - it's the only thing I know of that doesn't).


PCScipio wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
*(I'm not sure how Bladed brush interacts with the rule about 1.5x damage from STR/Power Attack. If it works in your favour then those numbers would be 1d10+6, and 1d10+12 respectively.)
I presume that you'd have to be wielding the Glaive one-handed to benefit from Slashing Grace. So I would imagine that you wouldn't get 1.5 x dex damage (not that I'm an expert on Bladed Brush).

Sounds reasonable. That was my initial thought as well. I'd be reasonably sure this has been argued a lot though, it seems like that kind of thing.


Bladed brush says When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).


Right, but what does that do for a Warpriest?


If you're going with a greatsword build (as opposed to, say, the polearm suggestion above), the consider a half-orc follower of Gorum with Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored. You'll then be able to pick up Gorum's Divine Fighting Technique by cashing out a minor Blessing rather than having to use a feat slot.


Slim Jim wrote:
If you're going with a greatsword build (as opposed to, say, the polearm suggestion above), the consider a half-orc follower of Gorum with Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored. You'll then be able to pick up Gorum's Divine Fighting Technique by cashing out a minor Blessing rather than having to use a feat slot.

Oh I like that, less of a controller, more of a damage dealer (still a tank).

Need less DEX, so you can focus on STR.

Fate's Favoured, Half Orc with Sacred Tattoo, use Divind Favour in every fight.

What domains would be good for that? (Chaos, Destruction, Glory, Strength, War)


MrCharisma wrote:
Right, but what does that do for a Warpriest?

It means that I would be able to benefit from slashing grace. They would chain together. Slashing grace makes you damage for the glaive use dex. That's for the weapon not an individual attack right? So then wouldn't all attacks using the glaive then use dex and not strength?


Dodgerskeen wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Right, but what does that do for a Warpriest?
It means that I would be able to benefit from slashing grace. They would chain together. Slashing grace makes you damage for the glaive use dex. That's for the weapon not an individual attack right? So then wouldn't all attacks using the glaive then use dex and not strength?

Yup, looks good (sorry I thought you were trying to say something else).

So Weapon Finesse + Bladed Brush = DEX to hit.

Weapon Focus + Slashing Grace = DEX to damage.

Power Attack = more damage.


So should I wait until level 6 to get power attack? And what should I do about armor. Those dex maxes are detrimental to this build but I want my defense a little higher. I was also considering going half elf but their stupid skill feat ruins the build a little bit.


Bladed brush isn't a legal feat. From path of the righteous. My dm won't let me use it. Thanks for the help anyway guys. Back to the drawing board I guess.


No worries.

If you want defenses at low level, you can absolutely start with Scale Male, a Heavy wooden Shield and a 1-handed weapon. You can always switch weapons later when you upgrade your armour.

As I said my starting stats (assuming you're finishing at level 11 like PFS) would be 17, 14, 14, 10, 15, 7. This gives you a high offensive stat (18 STR at level 4) and keepse your defences in tact.

Re: Power Attack, I find it doesn't make a whole lot of difference before +4 BAB. This might be just me, but I'd aim to get it at level 5 or 6 (probabky 5, since 6 lets you take other more impressive feats).


I'm just using the stat block you mentioned. Same weapon. Combat reflexes and improved initiative as perks. +4 1D10+4 20x3 and 17 ac isn't horrible.


Yup, at level 4 you increase your STR by 1 (and we'll assume you have a MW weapon), so you get +9 1d10+6, you should have better armour for ~20AC.

By level 6 you shouod also have Power Attack, so you're at +8 1d10+12. If you take Fate's favoured and use Divine Favour you get to +11 1d10+15 most fights (get some pearls of power).
You've freed up some feats so if you need more defence you can take Shield Focus and shield Brace, so you should have ~23AC with no magic items (get a Darkwood Heavy Shield for 0ACP). All this and you should be able to make 3 AoOs per round (you probably won't get more than 1 or 2 very often), and you can make AoOs while flat-footed.


What armor can I get that is that high that doesn't outright kill my dex modifier.


You don't really need to worry much about Dex as a Warpriest I'd argue. You get heavy armor proficiency so your best bet generally is to just load up on full plate once you get the chance. Numerically it's the best armor anyway (total +10 to your AC with a 12 Dex vs +9 for any other choices). The only real reason to keep your Dex at 14 would be if you plan on quaffing potions of Enlarge Person. You'll be at -1 AC because you're a size class bigger, and since your Dex also drops by 2 you'll be at a net -2 with a 12 Dex but only a -1 with 14 Dex.

The reason you generally can ignore Dex is that your Reflex save is always going to be your worst, so it's not really worth sinking points into it to try to improve it. Furthermore, Reflex saves are usually just to avoid damage whereas Will and Fortitude are much more serious. ON TOP OF THAT, you can use Fervor to heal yourself as a swift action, making the damage you take by failing a Reflex save much less grievous.

That said, I usually recommend Half-Orc for Warpriests: they can still take the Human favored class bonus for +1/6 of a combat feat every level; and Sacred Tattoo synergizes very well with the Fate's Favored trait that is basically mandatory for Warpriests, giving you a +2 luck bonus to each of your saves (and makes Reflex suck a lot less).

Actually Half-Orc Warpriest archers can be deadly because they can use Orc Hornbows (2d6 ranged weapon) without sinking a feat into them. Since they do 7 average damage per shot instead of the 4.5 of a Longbow, that's more than the extra damage of Deadly Aim without having to take the attack penalty. If you then go for a Dex build you'll also then have a decent Reflex save.


Well DEX in this case is goving you more AoOs, and i like 14 because id you do enlarge then you still get a benefit from Combat Reflexes. It also helps at low levels before you get full plate (but yes I'd go for full plate).

I see the synergy of Half Orc (Sacred Tattoo for the win), but Warpriests have 2 good saves (the good ones) and a reason to put points into CON and WIS, meaning you Reflex save is the only save that won't already be stellar. Not saying Half Orc is bad, but if that's the only reason you're taking it it's not such a big deal.

Re: Orc Hornbow, Humans can take it with their bonus feat, or Half-Elves could take it with the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait (I may be biased, I tend to favour Half Elves). The damage is good, but not good enough to ignore Deadly Aim. The real draw (hah, pun) is that since you're rolling 2 dice you're less likely to be screwed by a bad damage roll at a critical moment.


MrC, I wouldn't make a Gorum half-orc warpriest a dex build. Make him strength, stomp around in full-plate, and save a ton of feats you can't afford.


Sorry I was a bit rambly there.

Half orc is strong, but I wouldn't change my character concept just for that.

And yes I agree STr is superior to DEX. I like to have enough DEX to be enlarged with Combat Reflexes though, it's a huge boost to your damage output and/or your ability to control the battlefield.

Also regarding feats, a Warpriest with the human favoured class bonus gets the same number of feats as a fighter (well, 1 less). If anyone can afford feats ...

(PS. I've got a raging fever at the moment, so if I say anything too weird just let me know and I check it again in a few days when I'm feeling better.)


MrCharisma wrote:
And yes I agree STr is superior to DEX.
In many ways, it's not (especially in point-buy, where focusing on both results in being MAD).
Quote:
I like to have enough DEX to be enlarged with Combat Reflexes though
You only need a 14 to always be eligible for at least two AoOs while enlarged, and a 14>12 "fills" plate armor perfectly, I might add.
Quote:
, it's a huge boost to your damage output and/or your ability to control the battlefield.
The main reason my half-orc Gorum warpriest suggestion would be strength-based is because he'd be using a greatsword, which he cannot use Weapon Finesse with.
Quote:
Also regarding feats, a Warpriest with the human favoured class bonus...

...is losing six hitpoints for every feat he gains (and losing many of them long before he gains the feat). --Those carefully-selected feats had better be operational 100% of the time in combat. I.e., you're always Power Attacking and always achieving a Cleave and always achieving at least two AoOs per round with Combat Reflexes, etc, etc, and that applies to every single feat in your entire build (or otherwise the least-used feat is worth less than the cushion of six more hitpoints you'd be enjoying 100% of the time. (About the only build I can see for which this is not the case would be some sort of dwarf Dreadnought Barbarian/Warpriest multiclass with Raging Vitality who eventually rocks a CON of 26 while ornery.)

I.e., if I'm a 20th-level core warpriest who goes human FCB all the way, I'd already have eighteen feats (not counting the free Weapon Focus), then be trading 18hp for three more. Well, in *any* build of 21 feats, at least three of them are going to be trash (i.e., worthless tax-feats for other feats that often aren't that great themselves, and stuff so situational that you can't remember when you last used it). Of course you'll probably be taking Toughness and either Dodge or Shield Focus (two feats you might not normally consider in a warpriest) because you're worried about your low hp ...in which case you're effectively gaining only ONE feat for all eighteen of those hitpoints sacrificed, or none if taking all three.

~ ~ ~ ~

Be wary of Paizo "alternatives", for the writers are lawful-evil devils ever desirous of leading you into the temptation of seemingly greater power at the price of an earlier death. (How they hunger for your mortal soul, and the sooner you fork it over, the better.)

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