Ancestral Paragon feat selection

[Supes]

Would a human who selected natural ambition as a 1st level ancestry feat be able to use ancestral paragon general feat at 3rd level to select natural ambition? With the overall result being the character has 3 1st level class feats? It doesn’t seem like they would but thought I would ask since It’s a little complicated.

[Laran]

My understanding is that a feat can only be taken once unless it has specific text which allows it to be taken multiple times (there are a number of such feats explicitly allowing them to be taken multiple times but Natural Ambition is not one of them). Thus, you could not take Natural Ambition twice

[belbearvan]

Are you really taking Natural Ambition a 2nd time? I read it as you are taking Natural Ambition once and Ancestral Paragon once. As long as the final 1st class feat selection is not the same, the two are quite different.
For example
Natural Ambition / Sudden Charge and Ancestral Paragon / Natural Ambition / Point-Blank-Shot would be fine. They provide totally separate benefits.
Natural Ambition / Point-Blank-Shot and Ancestral Paragon / Natural Ambition / Point-Blank-Shot (attempting to get +4 damage)would be illegal. They provide the exact same benefit.

[Laran]

No, a feat cannot be taken multiple times if it does not have text allowing it to be taken multiple times.

You look at each feat in the chain not the end feat

Natural Ambition > Sudden Charge

You have taken Natural Ambition and Sudden Charge (source of feat is irrelevant, it is only relevant that you took them somehow). Since they do not have the multiple tag, you cannot take them again.

Thus

Ancestral Paragon > Natural Ambition > Point Blank shot

would not be legal since you would be taking the Natural Ambition feat twice

[Kalderaan]

I don't see why you can't do this. Where in the CRB does it state you can't?

[thenobledrake]

The core book states that you can't do this by not saying "you can take the same feat multiple times"

The rules aren't a list of things you can't do: they are a list of things which you can do, so the fact that some feats have a section that says "Special you can take this feat more than once." is illustrative of the fact that you generally can't take a feat repeatedly.

[Laran]

Well, you got me there. There is NO explicit statement that most feats cannot be taken multiple times. What we have are special rules under many feats which explicitly state that they can be taken multiple times (e.g. Additional Lore, Armor Proficiency, Terrain Expertise, and so forth).

There has been a discussion on the boards about this very point that the CRB does not explicitly prohibit most feats from being taking multiple times but it was pointed out that the existence of this special rule on so many feats is pretty darn strong evidence for the multiple prohibition

[Mark Seifter]

The statblock definition on page 18, Reading Rules, explains the Special entries, pointing out that the most usual situation where we need a special entry is that it "appears in feats you can select more than once, explaining what happens when you do"

[Quandary]

Yeah it's strange for rules to not state general rule against repeating Feats unless explicitly allowed, I don't think the logic justifying lack of such a rule is very solid... The rules state when you can take a Feat, and these are all Feats, so lack of "no repeats" rule means they are just as legit choice as any other Feat.

I did come across related issue with Familiar abilities, I wonder if those are repeatable by default or not...
Some actually have phrasing "every time you select this ability" implicitly acknowledging it can be taken multiple times, but not phrased as affirmative allowance or variance from a restrictive norm... So I think they ALL can be taken multiple times even if lacking such wording.

Technically these are not Feats and don't have to follow same rules as Feats, but if Feats follow certain restriction and Familiar Abilities don't it seems like no-repeat rule for Feats should be explicitly stated, otherwise an "assumed rule" would not have clear grounds to apply to Feats but not all Familiar Abilities and similar "choices".

[Mark Seifter]

"If you have a repertoire, instead designate a cantrip to add to your repertoire every time you select this ability; you can retrain it but can’t otherwise change it." for Cantrip Connection means that on each day that you select that ability you always get the same one. So like you don't pick detect magic on one day and light the next, even though you selected the ability again on the second day. It doesn't mean you can keep taking it multiple times.

[Quandary]

OK... I think it would read more clearly as discrete sentences, less dependent on parsing "it", semicolon, etc
e.g. "You can prepare an additional cantrip, or add one to your repertoire if you have one.
The choice of repertoire spell can't be changed when later selecting this ability, although it can be retrained." (even ~10 characters shorter I think)

Anyhow, so the main point is there is presumed restriction against all repeat ability choices, not only Feats.

[theservantsllcleanitup]

Quandary, you were talking about taking cantrip connection multiple times last week lol. Hopefully now that mark himself has kaiboshed it you'll believe it

[Draco18s]

Mark Seifter wrote:

"If you have a repertoire, instead designate a cantrip to add to your repertoire every time you select this ability; you can retrain it but can’t otherwise change it." for Cantrip Connection means that on each day that you select that ability you always get the same one. So like you don't pick detect magic on one day and light the next, even though you selected the ability again on the second day. It doesn't mean you can keep taking it multiple times.

Hey Mark, can we get some errata so "do x y every time" doesn't read as "every time: do x y" instead of "x; every time do y"?

Because seriously:
No one should parse "designate a cantrip to add to your repertoire every time you select this ability" as anything other than "every time you select this ability: designate a cantrip to add to your repertoire."

Suggested:
"If you have a repertoire, instead designate a cantrip. Every time you select this ability you add it to your repertoire for the day."