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Uh,
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major CurseThe curse is supposed to increase as you spend points. That's the opposite.
Standard focus pool is you wake up with, say, 2 points. If you spend 2 in one combat, you go down to 0, and Refocusing brings you back up to 1.
Under your system, all of that is so far distorted that it's a focus pool in name only, and is realistically a completely different system.
No it works like all the other focus pools, save in how you gain them, by casting Oracle Spells.
Casting Focus Spells reduces your Focus Point total... which is how it works for every other Focus user.
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I think folks are confused because the 'rules' for this idea are spread out and non technically written, as well as interspersed with discussion of similar mechanics.
Perhaps if you collate the disparate elements into a rough rules text (I say rough cause I dont think anyone wants to bog things down with discussion on grammar etc) it'll be easier to critique.
*nods*
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Are you talking about how it is currently or what I've been suggesting, because these last comments have been about how it currently functions and could function better with just a change of wording rather than a mechanical overhaul.the former (and later???, there's too many versions floating around for me to know what you mean by "what i've been suggesting"), and the way your proposing is making me track more things that are ultimately superfluous. I don't need a seperate tracker for focus and curse.
AS WELL, limiting to no focus pool means that the oracle can be a self contained beast in relation to focus casting. because items that work generically with a focus pool can silently super buff the oracle. (and thus they'd have to nerf all the free oracle curse abilities that give them an effective massive focus pool for free and free refocusing feats.)
(so we are? I guess?)
You wouldn't need a separate tracker for my suggestion, Curse goes on a sliding scale with your Focus Pool, it's not two separate pools.
And Rysky gave the chart:
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major Curse
I wonder whether Rysky's chart means number of focus points below the maximum level, rather than number of focus points in the focus pool.
We have to measure starting from the bottom, the empty pool, because if we measured from a full pool, then a multiclass feat that increases the pool size would increase the curse.
Let me give an example of measuring from the bottom of the pool. For an alway-on minor curse and a focus pool of size 1, we could phrase it as, "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
At 11th level, the focus pool grows to size 2 and the rule changes to: "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a major curse. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
At 17th level, the focus pool grows to size 3 and the rule changes to: "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a major curse and an extreme curse. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point, you suffer a major curse. If your focus pool has exactly two focus points, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
For a curse that is not always on, we would need another sentence about, "If you have not yet cast a revelation spell since your daily preparations, your curse is inactive."
On the other hand, a chart that says, "If your focus pool is empty, your curse is inactive. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point you suffer a minor curse. If your focus pool has exactly two focus points you suffer a moderate curse. If your focus pool has three or more focus points you suffer a major curse," would be a lot clearer, but it reverses the paradigm. An oracle would wake up with maximum curse, and the curse would lessen in severity as he or she casts revelation spells. That is an interesting variation for the always-on curse, because mornings will be painful. (Like my morning in real life is painful right now. I will get my daily pain blocks functioning soon.)
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I would just say revelation spells increase curse, refocus decreases curse, you otherwise have a normal focus pool. You may cast a revelation spell with zero focus, but it makes you unconscious after.
So you can get extra juice from being a gnome but it wont reduce your curse when you do. But it would let you get another spell off before being stuck at the overcast unconscious bit.
this system would let you potentially grasp high level curses though...
you have to start writing pretty big and precise exceptions to make it clear what happens when you cast revelations that increment the curse but not the focus pool. like why does casting at 0 focus pool make you go unconscious, when you could potentially from oracle abilities as written have no curse effect yet.
Also, with the revelation feats, would these change to 1. not allow you to cast for free only supplying the revelation, 2. allow you to use a focus point without incrementing your curse, or 3. not increment your curse or use a focus point?
I think the inability to use stuff outside of class feats to change what happens to the oracle's focus pool and focus spells is intentional as well.
I feel most people who want this change, haven't taken a dive into the feat selection in detail to see how the class all comes together. well, most just seem to want to use focus pool stuff with the oracle i guess...
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What is more likely than writers making mistakes is players and GMs having misunderstandings.
NEW PLAYER: (reading a rulebook) What is a focus spell?
GM: It is a spell cast with focus points from a focus pool instead of using prepared spells or a spell slot. All focus spells cost exactly one focus point regardless of spell level, and all focus pools start with one focus point that refreshes every morning. Some feats increase the size of the focus pool to two or three points, but it doesn't go more than three. A focus point can also be restored by performing a ten-minute Refocus activity that involves service to the god or principle that provides the power.
That's a pretty poor start to the explanation of Focus Spells. Try starting with what they actually are, rather than explaining the quite separate idea of a Focus Pool.
Focus spells are a special type of spell attained directly from a branch of study, from a deity, or from another specific source. You can learn focus spells only through special class features or feats, rather than choosing them from a spell list... you can’t prepare a focus spell in a spell slot or use your spell slots to cast focus spells;
Are you talking about how it is currently or what I've been suggesting, because these last comments have been about how it currently functions and could function better with just a change of wording rather than a mechanical overhaul.the former (and later???, there's too many versions floating around for me to know what you mean by "what i've been suggesting"), and the way your proposing is making me track more things that are ultimately superfluous. I don't need a seperate tracker for focus and curse.
AS WELL, limiting to no focus pool means that the oracle can be a self contained beast in relation to focus casting. because items that work generically with a focus pool can silently super buff the oracle. (and thus they'd have to nerf all the free oracle curse abilities that give them an effective massive focus pool for free and free refocusing feats.)
(so we are? I guess?)
You wouldn't need a separate tracker for my suggestion, Curse goes on a sliding scale with your Focus Pool, it's not two separate pools.
And Rysky gave the chart:
1 Focus Point = Minor Curse
2 Focus Point = Moderate Curse
3 Focus Point = Major CurseI wonder whether Rysky's chart means number of focus points below the maximum level, rather than number of focus points in the focus pool.
We have to measure starting from the bottom, the empty pool, because if we measured from a full pool, then a multiclass feat that increases the pool size would increase the curse.
Let me give an example of measuring from the bottom of the pool. For an alway-on minor curse and a focus pool of size 1, we could phrase it as, "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
At 11th level, the focus pool grows to size 2 and the rule changes to: "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a major curse. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point, you suffer a moderate curse....
Then we have the thing where you have to give the Oracle "Refocus always refills your focus pool to its maximum value".
The point is, in the end you're basically bolting on a bunch of things to fit the mechanic, and it's insanely counterintuitive to fix a hypothetical future problem. And it interacts horribly with any thing that says "gain a focus point" like Gnome's Energized Font.
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That that all of these attempted fixes have to have so many exceptions and layered rules built into them to work and still have tons of potential room for abuses and errors to show up down the line I think really shows just how elegant and effective the playtest version is.
That said, I agree with the suggestion that dropping the phrase 'Revelation Spell' might help. Saying that Revelations are a special type of focus spell and Oracles can treat other focus spells as Revelation Spells is a potential stumbling block that doesn't actually have any mechanical effect at all.
What is more likely than writers making mistakes is players and GMs having misunderstandings.
NEW PLAYER: (reading a rulebook) What is a focus spell?
GM: It is a spell cast with focus points from a focus pool instead of using prepared spells or a spell slot. All focus spells cost exactly one focus point regardless of spell level, and all focus pools start with one focus point that refreshes every morning. Some feats increase the size of the focus pool to two or three points, but it doesn't go more than three. A focus point can also be restored by performing a ten-minute Refocus activity that involves service to the god or principle that provides the power.That's a pretty poor start to the explanation of Focus Spells. Try starting with what they actually are, rather than explaining the quite separate idea of a Focus Pool.
Focus spells are a special type of spell attained directly from a branch of study, from a deity, or from another specific source. You can learn focus spells only through special class features or feats, rather than choosing them from a spell list... you can’t prepare a focus spell in a spell slot or use your spell slots to cast focus spells;
Anyone who thinks I wrote a poor explanation for focus spells can use me as an example of how players and GMs misunderstand and misrepresent focus spells. Think of the confusion that curse-based focus spells will cause our feeble brains.
I spent a few years writing user documentation for data analysis software as part of my mathematical duties, so I developed a strong emphasis on operational details in my explanations. Did RexAliquid expect me to copy the full four-sentence paragraph that introduced the Focus Spells section on page 300 of the PF2 Core Rulebook? He didn't. He stopped before the third sentence that was about focus points: "Furthermore, you cast focus spells using a special pool of Focus Points—you can’t prepare a focus spell in a spell slot or use your spell slots to cast focus spells; similarly, you can’t spend your Focus Points to cast spells that aren’t focus spells."
How about we compromise on the shorter explanation from Glossary and Index?
focus spell A type of spell, specific to a class, that can be cast using Focus Points and is automatically heightened to half your level rounded up. Focus spells always have a descriptive term such as “domain spell” or “ki spell.” 300, 302, 386–407
By the way, the next entry in that index is "focused," a magic item trait that gives an extra focus point. It provides a Paizo-created example for Rysky's inquiry about magic items that interact with focus spells.
focused (trait) An item with this trait can give you an additional Focus Point. This focus point is separate from your focus pool and doesn’t count toward the cap on your focus pool. You can gain this benefit only if you have a focus pool, and there might be restrictions on how the point can be used. You can’t gain more than 1 Focus Point per day from focused items. 535
CASSOCK OF DEVOTION Item 11
Divination, Divine, Focused, InvestedPrice 1,150 gp
Usage worn garment; Bulk L
Each cassock of devotion depicts scenes related to the domains of a certain deity. It serves as a religious symbol of that deity, and it doesn’t need to be wielded to provide that benefit. You gain a +2 item bonus to Religion checks and a +1 item bonus to the divine skill of the deity to whom the cassock is dedicated (as listed on pages 437–440).
Activate [free-action] envision; Frequency once per day; ]b]Effect[/b] You gain 1 Focus Point, which you can spend only to cast a cleric domain spell for a domain belonging to the deity the cassock is dedicated to. If you don’t spend this Focus Point by the end of this turn, it is lost.
Craft Requirements You are a cleric who worships the deity tied to the cassock.
An oracle multiclassed to cleric would gain cleric domain spells in addition to oracle domain spells, but due to the oracle rules would not gain a focus pool. As currently written, though the cassock's focus point never touches the cleric's focus pool, the focused trait still has the restriction, "You can gain this benefit only if you have a focus pool." Thus, oracles have a definite denial of focus-related magic items.
That said, I agree with the suggestion that dropping the phrase 'Revelation Spell' might help. Saying that Revelations are a special type of focus spell and Oracles can treat other focus spells as Revelation Spells is a potential stumbling block that doesn't actually have any mechanical effect at all.
all focus spells use this working though.
clerics cast domain spells, champions cast devotion spells, monks cast ki spells, bards cast compositions... i could go on but i think i've made my case.
the wording DOES NOT say pretend other focus spells are revelations, it says other focus spells use curse mechanics for you and don't need focus points.
An oracle multiclassed to cleric would gain cleric domain spells in addition to oracle domain spells, but due to the oracle rules would not gain a focus pool. As currently written, though the cassock's focus point never touches the cleric's focus pool, the focused trait still has the restriction, "You can gain this benefit only if you have a focus pool." Thus, oracles have a definite denial of focus-related magic items.
oracles already can cast 1-2 spells per day for free(no curse advancement) so they shouldn't also then be able to get crazy items that do what you're saying.
also the rest of it, i'd say is a problem with focus spells in general, but i don't think that means we should severely limit how focus spells work.
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Then we have the thing where you have to give the Oracle "Refocus always refills your focus pool to its maximum value".Why?
The point is, in the end you're basically bolting on a bunch of things to fit the mechanic, and it's insanely counterintuitive to fix a hypothetical future problem. And it interacts horribly with any thing that says "gain a focus point" like Gnome's Energized Font.
Again, how?
Instead of the complicated Not-Focus mechanic it just uses the actual Focus mechanics, where when you cast Focus Spells your Focus Pool goes down. There's no bolting "a bunch" or anything, it plays like all the other Focus mechanics.
That that all of these attempted fixes have to have so many exceptions and layered rules built into them to work and still have tons of potential room for abuses and errors to show up down the line I think really shows just how elegant and effective the playtest version is.
1) it isn't in the slightest.
2) what are these exceptions and layered rules? What room for abuse and errors? Please point them out.
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An oracle multiclassed to cleric would gain cleric domain spells in addition to oracle domain spells, but due to the oracle rules would not gain a focus pool. As currently written, though the cassock's focus point never touches the cleric's focus pool, the focused trait still has the restriction, "You can gain this benefit only if you have a focus pool." Thus, oracles have a definite denial of focus-related magic items.oracles already can cast 1-2 spells per day for free(no curse advancement) so they shouldn't also then be able to get crazy items that do what you're saying.
also the rest of it, i'd say is a problem with focus spells in general, but i don't think that means we should severely limit how focus spells work.
And clerics can cast more spells for free and they get to use the Cassock of Devotion. It is on page 607 of the PF2 Core Rulebook, so I do not understand why Bandw2 calls it crazy. A similar focused magic item, Druid's Vestments, is on page 610. Those are the only focused magic items in the Core Rulebook.
Then we have the thing where you have to give the Oracle "Refocus always refills your focus pool to its maximum value".Why?
Because then you're going from major curse to permanent moderate curse. Alternately, you're going from extreme curse to major curse.
That turns it into something insanely punishing.
The point is, in the end you're basically bolting on a bunch of things to fit the mechanic, and it's insanely counterintuitive to fix a hypothetical future problem. And it interacts horribly with any thing that says "gain a focus point" like Gnome's Energized Font.Again, how?
Instead of the complicated Not-Focus mechanic it just uses the actual Focus mechanics, where when you cast Focus Spells your Focus Pool goes down. There's no bolting "a bunch" or anything, it plays like all the other Focus mechanics.
Okay, I use it to gain a Focus point. My curse now goes down. I guarantee that anything that gives a Focus point is now so much better because you can use it to control your curse.
What if you gain a bigger pool through not-oracle, say multiclassing? Then that throws all the numbers off in a different way, letting you free-cast spells without taking curse penalties.
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Really excellent discussion going on in here. Wish I could contribute in a more mechanical way.
All I can say is that to me, the concept of the curse being solely tied to using focus/revelation spells is very de-flavoring to the class. It's completely removed from regular spellcasting, which will be 95% of their actions in an encounter if I had to estimate. Lightest curse always on is an interesting way.
What if it were treated more like a spellcasting version of rage? That's a similar method of adding in both positive and negative changes to your character that barbarians always find useful. What if it were more like a single action to engage, which applies a defensive debuff specific to your curse but also improves your spellcasting modifier or something? Obviously, in this case they wouldn't be allowed the standard progression casters always get of achieving legendary. But being up to master, getting +1 per curse level for a maximum of +3 or +4, which would make them the most accurate spellcasters but at complex disadvantages?
I dunno. I love the idea of a razor-edge caster like the oracle hints at being. The current setup is way too convenient for players to just ignore when they feel like being safe, in which case they're just a sorcerer.
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… where are you getting the permanent moderate/major curse from? If they don't want to be what Curse level they have they cast a Focus Spell to reduce their Focus Pool/Curse Level.Then we have the thing where you have to give the Oracle "Refocus always refills your focus pool to its maximum value".Why?Because then you're going from major curse to permanent moderate curse. Alternately, you're going from extreme curse to major curse.
That turns it into something insanely punishing.
No? Using Focus Spells lowers your Curse because your Curse is tied to your Focus Pool.Okay, I use it to gain a Focus point. My curse now goes down. I guarantee that anything that gives a Focus point is now so much better because you can use it to control your curse.The point is, in the end you're basically bolting on a bunch of things to fit the mechanic, and it's insanely counterintuitive to fix a hypothetical future problem. And it interacts horribly with any thing that says "gain a focus point" like Gnome's Energized Font.Again, how?
Instead of the complicated Not-Focus mechanic it just uses the actual Focus mechanics, where when you cast Focus Spells your Focus Pool goes down. There's no bolting "a bunch" or anything, it plays like all the other Focus mechanics.
What if you gain a bigger pool through not-oracle, say multiclassing? Then that throws all the numbers off in a different way, letting you free-cast spells without taking curse penalties.
You can't, 3 Focus is the max anyone can get. And also casting Focus Spells uses Focus Points so I don't really know what you're arguing with here?
… where are you getting the permanent moderate/major curse from? If they don't want to be what Curse level they have they cast a Focus Spell to reduce their Focus Pool/Curse Level.Then we have the thing where you have to give the Oracle "Refocus always refills your focus pool to its maximum value".Why?Because then you're going from major curse to permanent moderate curse. Alternately, you're going from extreme curse to major curse.
That turns it into something insanely punishing.
No? Using Focus Spells lowers your Curse because your Curse is tied to your Focus Pool.Okay, I use it to gain a Focus point. My curse now goes down. I guarantee that anything that gives a Focus point is now so much better because you can use it to control your curse.The point is, in the end you're basically bolting on a bunch of things to fit the mechanic, and it's insanely counterintuitive to fix a hypothetical future problem. And it interacts horribly with any thing that says "gain a focus point" like Gnome's Energized Font.Again, how?
Instead of the complicated Not-Focus mechanic it just uses the actual Focus mechanics, where when you cast Focus Spells your Focus Pool goes down. There's no bolting "a bunch" or anything, it plays like all the other Focus mechanics.
What if you gain a bigger pool through not-oracle, say multiclassing? Then that throws all the numbers off in a different way, letting you free-cast spells without taking curse penalties.You can't, 3 Focus is the max anyone can get. And also casting Focus Spells uses Focus Points so I don't really know what you're arguing with here?
Did you read Mathmuse's description?
For an alway-on minor curse and a focus pool of size 1, we could phrase it as, "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
At 11th level, the focus pool grows to size 2 and the rule changes to: "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a major curse. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
At 17th level, the focus pool grows to size 3 and the rule changes to: "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a major curse and an extreme curse. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point, you suffer a major curse. If your focus pool has exactly two focus points, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
For a curse that is not always on, we would need another sentence about, "If you have not yet cast a revelation spell since your daily preparations, your curse is inactive."
If you multiclass to get another point in between 1 and 11, or between 11 and 17, the pool system breaks completely.
If you inverted it so that your curse is stronger the higher your pool is (the way you seem to want it), then you get a different problem, in that you get heavily punished until you cast revelation spells. Limiting in a different way, because you basically have to cast revelation spells as one of your first actions if you can, because that curse is punishing. Or you ignore your curse and keep your pool constantly low, which seems a dumb way to interact with the system.
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That that all of these attempted fixes have to have so many exceptions and layered rules built into them to work and still have tons of potential room for abuses and errors to show up down the line I think really shows just how elegant and effective the playtest version is.
For a simple suggestion:
1. Revelation spells are unaltered focus spells. Oracles start with a focus pool of size 1. They have an always-on minor curse, and access to the moderate curse.
2. The oracle is not granted the Refocus ability, though he or she could gain it through multiclassing.
3. The oracle gains the Draw Upon Mystery action and the Calm Curse action.
DRAW UPON MYSTERY [one-action]
Oracle
Requirements You have a focus pool.
Restore 1 Focus Point to your focus pool, unless your focus pool is already at maximum capacity. Your curse intensifies to the next stage: from minor to moderate, moderate to major, or major to extreme. If you do not have access to that next stage of curse, then at the end of your turn you fall unconscious and can’t be awoken by any means for 8 hours, after which you awaken naturally and can make your daily preparations normally.
CALM CURSE
Concentrate, Exploration
Requirements You have an oracular curse at a stage above minor.
You spend 10 minutes philosophically resolving the mystic conflict in your curse. Your curse diminishes to the previous stage: from moderate to minor, major to moderate, or extreme to major.
4. At 11th level, the Major Curse class feature grants access to the major curse.
5. At 17th level, the Extreme Curse class feature grants access to the extreme curse, which is the major curse plus a doomed condition.
6. Advanced Revelation (feat 6) increases the size of the focus pool by one, rather than saying, "Once per day, you can cast a revelation spell without increasing the severity of your curse."
7. Greater Revelation (feat 10) increases the size of the focus pool by one, rather than saying, "You can cast a revelation spell without increasing the severity of your curse once per day; if you have the Advanced Mystery feat, you can cast a revelation spell without increasing the severity of your curse a total of twice per day instead of once per day."
This is harsher than the curse-based revelation spells in the playtest, because it has an always-on minor curse and it requires an extra action to restore a focus point. It can also function as a regular focus pool by using Draw Upon Mystery only immediately before using Calm Curse, so the higher-stage curses had better have a good reason to keep them around, just like the PF1 curses have--the PF1 curses do not increase their disabling features with level; instead, they gain beneficial features.
And clerics can cast more spells for free and they get to use the Cassock of Devotion. It is on page 607 of the PF2 Core Rulebook, so I do not understand why Bandw2 calls it crazy. A similar focused magic item, Druid's Vestments, is on page 610. Those are the only focused magic items in the Core Rulebook.An oracle multiclassed to cleric would gain cleric domain spells in addition to oracle domain spells, but due to the oracle rules would not gain a focus pool. As currently written, though the cassock's focus point never touches the cleric's focus pool, the focused trait still has the restriction, "You can gain this benefit only if you have a focus pool." Thus, oracles have a definite denial of focus-related magic items.oracles already can cast 1-2 spells per day for free(no curse advancement) so they shouldn't also then be able to get crazy items that do what you're saying.
also the rest of it, i'd say is a problem with focus spells in general, but i don't think that means we should severely limit how focus spells work.
?
i'm saying it'd be crazy if they could also get items like that.
if they could, they'd have to remove their ability to get it "for free".
at level 20, a oracle gets 2 free casts per day, one for each revelation feat
You learn an advanced revelation spell associated with your mystery. In addition, you learn to forestall the effects of your curse somewhat. Once per day, you can cast a revelation spell without increasing the severity of your curse.
as well you get a "focus pool" of 4 with the ability to overclock and go unconscious as a 5th floating point.
a cleric gets 4, so i don't think they get more focus spells...
DRAW UPON MYSTERY [one-action]
Oracle
Requirements You have a focus pool.
Restore 1 Focus Point to your focus pool, unless your focus pool is already at maximum capacity. Your curse intensifies to the next stage: from minor to moderate, moderate to major, or major to extreme. If you do not have access to that next stage of curse, then at the end of your turn you fall unconscious and can’t be awoken by any means for 8 hours, after which you awaken naturally and can make your daily preparations normally.
just going to point out, that this could end in 1. you going unconscious with a focus point because someone didn't plan out their turn correctly, or as a reaction they gain a condition that removes an action.
2. you can no longer fall unconscious after you get to extreme curse, as the verbiage only allows you to move up to a specific curse tiers.
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You can't, 3 Focus is the max anyone can get. And also casting Focus Spells uses Focus Points so I don't really know what you're arguing with here?Did you read Mathmuse's description?
If you multiclass to get another point in between 1 and 11, or between 11 and 17, the pool system breaks completely.For an alway-on minor curse and a focus pool of size 1, we could phrase it as, "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
At 11th level, the focus pool grows to size 2 and the rule changes to: "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a major curse. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
At 17th level, the focus pool grows to size 3 and the rule changes to: "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a major curse and an extreme curse. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point, you suffer a major curse. If your focus pool has exactly two focus points, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
For a curse that is not always on, we would need another sentence about, "If you have not yet cast a revelation spell since your daily preparations, your curse is inactive.",
Nope, 3 focus is the max anyone can get. See page 300 in the PF2 Core Rulebook:
Some abilities allow you to increase the Focus Points in your pool beyond 1. Typically, these are feats that give you a new focus spell and increase the number of points in your pool by 1. Your focus pool can’t have a capacity beyond 3 Focus Points, even if feats that increase your pool would cause it to exceed this number.
DRAW UPON MYSTERY [one-action]
Oracle
Requirements You have a focus pool.
Restore 1 Focus Point to your focus pool, unless your focus pool is already at maximum capacity. Your curse intensifies to the next stage: from minor to moderate, moderate to major, or major to extreme. If you do not have access to that next stage of curse, then at the end of your turn you fall unconscious and can’t be awoken by any means for 8 hours, after which you awaken naturally and can make your daily preparations normally.just going to point out, that this could end in 1. you going unconscious with a focus point because someone didn't plan out their turn correctly, or as a reaction they gain a condition that removes an action.
2. you can no longer fall unconscious after you get to extreme curse, as the verbiage only allows you to move up to a specific curse tiers.
For #1, that is either a foolish mistake by the oracle or a clever tactic by an opponent. I am okay with that.
For #2, I could revert to the wording on the playtest oracle, that assumes at first only minor and moderate curses are avaiable. Then Major Curse and Extreme Curse change the wording retroactively. I don't care for that writing style.
How about:
DRAW UPON MYSTERY [one-action]
Oracle
Requirements You have a focus pool.
Restore 1 Focus Point to your focus pool, unless your focus pool is already at maximum capacity. Your curse intensifies to the next stage: from minor to moderate, moderate to major, or major to extreme. If this would advance your curse to a stage that you cannot access or that does not exist, then instead the end of your turn you fall unconscious and can’t be awoken by any means for 8 hours, after which you awaken naturally and can make your daily preparations normally.
You can't, 3 Focus is the max anyone can get. And also casting Focus Spells uses Focus Points so I don't really know what you're arguing with here?Did you read Mathmuse's description?
If you multiclass to get another point in between 1 and 11, or between 11 and 17, the pool system breaks completely.For an alway-on minor curse and a focus pool of size 1, we could phrase it as, "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
At 11th level, the focus pool grows to size 2 and the rule changes to: "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a major curse. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
At 17th level, the focus pool grows to size 3 and the rule changes to: "If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a major curse and an extreme curse. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point, you suffer a major curse. If your focus pool has exactly two focus points, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
For a curse that is not always on, we would need another sentence about, "If you have not yet cast a revelation spell since your daily preparations, your curse is inactive.",
Nope, 3 focus is the max anyone can get. See page 300 in the PF2 Core Rulebook:
Some abilities allow you to increase the Focus Points in your pool beyond 1. Typically, these are feats that give you a new focus spell and increase the number of points in your pool by 1. Your focus pool can’t have a capacity beyond 3 Focus Points, even if feats that increase your pool would cause it to exceed this number.
Ok, so let's be explicit on how it causes a problem.
Let's say you multiclass for 2 focus before level 11. What happens?"If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
So you get a free casting for each focus point you have before that. Completely unintended interaction.
That focus point is relevant up until level 17.
"If your focus pool is empty, you suffer a major curse. If your focus pool has exactly one focus point, you suffer a moderate curse. Otherwise, you suffer a minor curse."
So you're at 3 focus during this. That means you keep your nice safe extra casting up until level 17.
And then if you add ways to regain Focus into the equation, then it throws it off even more. Any way to regain Focus now becomes a way to reduce your curse.
DRAW UPON MYSTERY [one-action]
Oracle
Requirements You have a focus pool.
Restore 1 Focus Point to your focus pool, unless your focus pool is already at maximum capacity. Your curse intensifies to the next stage: from minor to moderate, moderate to major, or major to extreme. If you do not have access to that next stage of curse, then at the end of your turn you fall unconscious and can’t be awoken by any means for 8 hours, after which you awaken naturally and can make your daily preparations normally.just going to point out, that this could end in 1. you going unconscious with a focus point because someone didn't plan out their turn correctly, or as a reaction they gain a condition that removes an action.
2. you can no longer fall unconscious after you get to extreme curse, as the verbiage only allows you to move up to a specific curse tiers.
For #1, that is either a foolish mistake by the oracle or a clever tactic by an opponent. I am okay with that.
For #2, I could revert to the wording on the playtest oracle, that assumes at first only minor and moderate curses are avaiable. Then Major Curse and Extreme Curse change the wording retroactively. I don't care for that writing style.
How about:
DRAW UPON MYSTERY [one-action]
Oracle
Requirements You have a focus pool.
Restore 1 Focus Point to your focus pool, unless your focus pool is already at maximum capacity. Your curse intensifies to the next stage: from minor to moderate, moderate to major, or major to extreme. If this would advance your curse to a stage that you cannot access or that does not exist, then instead the end of your turn you fall unconscious and can’t be awoken by any means for 8 hours, after which you awaken naturally and can make your daily preparations normally.
#1 I also potentially see something happening, where they use the ability and then somehow pop a trap. really i'm with Rysky, in that they probably shouldn't become unconscious, but maybe gain slowed 1 or something until they sleep, and maybe locking out all focus spells.
#2 that's much better.
unrelated to above. I still prefer curse as is. it just seems so much funner to interact with than having a focus pool and potentially getting your curse if you really need to start digging deep into focus spells in a battle.
to be fair i was never a fan of the oracle in pf1 but i'm a fan of this.
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Wait do we think the oracle is too strong? Wanting always on curses limiting their nova potential etc.
I also want to point out that just because YOU find little relief from a full night's rest doesn't mean all such ailments should work like that. I as a counterpoint find the morning after a proper rest to be a temporary reprieve.
I'm pretty sure it's more the fact that the curse just doesn't exist unless you use a revelation spell. This feels wonky to the concept.
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Dood, not cool.Why he based part of his arguement for an always on curse on his own difficulties stating that a reprieve from that due to rest is silly because it doesn't work for him.
It isn't silly because while common it isn't a universal truth, with for some people the opposite being true. I'm not dismissing their experience, I'm saying it isnt a strong basis for an arguement in thus case.
I could also state the case that the oracle curse is unlike any actual human ailment or disability. Nobody is receiving some great power in exchange for their problems.
This is a perfectly legitimate topic to debate. I mentioned my own handicap in order to give my baseline.
If an oracle wakes up without a curse in the morning, then he has a strong motive for delaying the first use of a revelation spell that day. He can get along with the oracle abilities that are not revelation spells, such as the mystery benefit, the granted cantrip, and the spontaneous spell slots per day. That is a lot of magic. It would be much like a wizard relying on cantrip spells until the party encounters a hard challenge.
And thus, all the flavor of the curse will be delayed. For a major part of each day, an oracle will feel more like a divine sorcerer than someone under the burden of divine conflict.
Let me get a little more specific. The battle oracle's first revelation spell is call to arms. It is cast as a reaction when rolling for initiative and gives a +2 status bonus to initiative to the entire party and a few temporary Hit Points. But if the oracle has an inactive curse, it also activates the minor curse: "a –2 status penalty to AC and saving throws, but each time you make a Strike, you can suspend these penalties until the start of your next turn." The party gains a minor benefit for that battle, but the cost to the oracle is that his or her AC is bad for the rest of the day. My daughter's oracle in my Rise of the Runelord's campaign preferred to cast a buff spell as her first action in combat, so the Strike-based suspension of the penalty wouldn't apply that first turn for an oracle played that way.
The first revelation spell of the day has a benefit for one encounter and a cost that lasts all day. That feels unbalanced.
Finally, my third reason against a good night's sleep turning off the curse is that that 8 hours sleep is an overly powerful refreshing activity. It recharges all spells, it heals wounds, it prevents and relieves fatigue, it restores all focus points for character's with a focus pool. The oracular curse rules on page 15 say, "While your curse is active, you can’t mitigate, reduce, or remove its effects by any other means; for example, while you are slowed 1 from your extreme curse, you couldn’t benefit from an effect that normally cancels or counteracts the slowed condition," but ordinary sleep can mitigate the curse completely. Sleep is more powerful than any spell. That dissonance bothers me. Sleep is a mundane activity that real people do every day, so I think it odd that it is the one activity that can completely relieve a transcendent affliction.
And yes, that dissonance especially bothers me because in most people sleep relives fatigue, but my Chronic Fatigue Syndrome makes my fatigue immune to sleep (I am doing well this morning, no pain). I know that sleep is not as powerful as Pathfinder makes it in-game. The power of sleep in Dungeons & Dragons is a convention for gaming purposes. It resets Vancian casting right before the spellcaster begins his or her dungeon adventure so that the limit of spellcasting is uses per day.
The curse is the side effect of drawing on this unrestrained/unknown/bigger than a mortal was meant to deal with power source. It manifesting only after you've tapped into it makes perfect sense.
Yet it manifests only for the rest of the day. This transcendent affliction is tightly bound by the setting and rising sun. Why a day rather than a week or an hour? The curse duration for a PF1 oracle is the rest of his or her life.
Now I would be happy with some incredibly minor factor at play when you wake up but I'd like that to be a) not a nerf to the Oracle and b) subject to player description (we all have different ways of coping)
Below minor curse we could have an alway-on cosmetic curse that looks cool but has no mechanical effect, such as battle scars on a battle oracle, flaming eyes on a flames oracle, and a halo on a life oracle. That would answer my first argument about the curse having no flavor at the beginning of the day.
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I think that if Revelation Spells and curse level were completely independent of focus points and focus spells, that would be pretty cool.
Revelaiton spells increase curse and focus spells use up focus, and recovering is a different activity for each.
It would mean Multiclassing oracle would be able to cast "more" spells in total: up to 3 focus spells and then 3 revelation spells if they spend a lot of feats. Then you could actually make revelation spells more powerful since they have a greater "cost" than regular focus spells.
Yes, you are now tracking 2 resources, but at least they're pretty distinct. Think it would be worth complicating this class at least that much...
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That that all of these attempted fixes have to have so many exceptions and layered rules built into them to work and still have tons of potential room for abuses and errors to show up down the line I think really shows just how elegant and effective the playtest version is.
That said, I agree with the suggestion that dropping the phrase 'Revelation Spell' might help. Saying that Revelations are a special type of focus spell and Oracles can treat other focus spells as Revelation Spells is a potential stumbling block that doesn't actually have any mechanical effect at all.
I've been skimming this thread and this point stuck out to me. I absolutely agree, the Oracle's design is quite elegant and it's one of the things I'm most excited about in the play test.
While I liked the 1e Oracle, it did very much feel like a divine sorcerer with some other abilities simply tacked on. The curse was an interesting bit of fluff, but was ultimately something that you only ever wanted to overcome. It didn't really impact how the class played, beyond getting in the way. Even though, fluff-wise, it was meant to be the price you paid for channeling raw divine power, it didn't really feel like a price.
The 2e Oracle captures the feel of "paying" for your power much better. Many depictions of "Oracle" characters in both popular fiction and mythology make clear that channeling divine power extracts a terrible price, and so firmly establishing that as a theme in the class is a decision that makes the class that much more culturally resonant. It also helps to firmly set the Oracle apart from the divine Sorcerer, whose power comes effortlessly because they are part-divine, unlike the fully mortal Oracle.
Now, these sorts of mechanics are definitely hard to balance, since you have to tune both the power and its cost, but I hope that the solution to the playtest problems are careful tuning, and not scrapping the Oracle's new conceptual theme entirely. It's elegant, culturally resonant, and mechanically unique, and if it can be pulled off well, it will probably make the Oracle my new favorite class.
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It also completely invalidates all the P1 Oracles unfortunately.
Does it, necessarily? I think tying curses to mysteries allows for much more interesting curses, since they don't have to be balanced to avoid potentially undesired mystery/curse interactions. But there's still room for "universal" curses that might be less radical but can be selected by any mystery. There's no reason we can't have our cake and eat it to, at least in this instance.
It also completely invalidates all the P1 Oracles unfortunately.
such is the price of progress
(don't take this that seriously.)
but really, a lot of the class changes invalidate a ton of pre existing people of that class.
lots of people lost 1/2 casting, etc. unfortunately a lot of concepts simply don't fit as well with all the newly written stuff but we can't get too upset over it.
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It also completely invalidates all the P1 Oracles unfortunately.Does it, necessarily? I think tying curses to mysteries allows for much more interesting curses, since they don't have to be balanced to avoid potentially undesired mystery/curse interactions. But there's still room for "universal" curses that might be less radical but can be selected by any mystery. There's no reason we can't have our cake and eat it to, at least in this instance.
I was speaking on Oracles seeking out and getting their powers from a congregation of deities rather than being cursed with it, which is what every Oracle in P1 was like.
For Mystery/Curses locked together I'm not entirely opposed but I'd rather the Mysteries have a specific suite of Curses to pick from.
As it is now I can't play my P1 Life Oracle in P2, because they were cursed with the power and had the Blackened Arms Curse (a broken conduit to the Positive Energy Plane is what I was going with).
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It also completely invalidates all the P1 Oracles unfortunately.such is the price of progress
(don't take this that seriously.)
but really, a lot of the class changes invalidate a ton of pre existing people of that class.
lots of people lost 1/2 casting, etc. unfortunately a lot of concepts simply don't fit as well with all the newly written stuff but we can't get too upset over it.
I don't know any Rangers that had spells integral to their character concept (shut up Instant Enemy), and Paladin still gets spells and supernatural abilities.
Also Rangers might get Focus spells later.
Either way, that's completely different than the Oracle changing in flavor and concept.
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The fluff of drawing power from multiple deities can be fixed pretty easily, I think it has gone a little too specific, over-correcting from the incredibly vague power sources of the original. The mysteries presented all suggest a number of non-deific potential power sources, so it's a little strange that the class text itself operates on the assumption your power definitely comes from deities.
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I ran two oracles in P1e. One was a Haunted oracle who was afraid she was going insane as weird things were happening all around her in her everyday life. The other was a Tongues oracle who was the result of a semi-botched reincarnate that carried the spirit of a warrior princess back from the Boneyard with her which took over whenever she was in danger.
Frankly, it's hard to see either of those characters in the P2e class. It's not just that there isn't a Haunted or a Tongues curse -- I'm very confident there will be more options in the final rules than in the Playtest, just like there were in the CRB -- but that the curse mechanic has changed so much, from a permanent condition to an escalating and de-escalating one. In both cases, my P1e PCs were driven to adventure by their curses; in P2e, they won't even encounter their curses until they take up the adventuring life.
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in P2e, they won't even encounter their curses until they take up the adventuring life.
*nods* The best way to avoid the curse it to NOT adventure: A nice peaceful life without encounters that'd require focus spells means never needing to activate the curse. It's like the chance to overuse a wand: if you avoid life and death situations, there's never a reason to do it.
Myself, I loved my Samsaran Oracle with Shattered Psyche that resulted from multiple reincarnate memories and personalities being active at once. I really can't see her as not having the other voices in her head until she cast some focus spells.
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in P2e, they won't even encounter their curses until they take up the adventuring life.*nods* The best way to avoid the curse it to NOT adventure: I nice peaceful life without encounters that'd require focus spells means never needing to activate the curse. It's like the chance to overuse a wand: is you avoid life and death situations, there's never a reason to do it.
Myself, I loved my Samsaran Oracle with Shattered Psyche that resulted from multiple reincarnate memories and personalities being active at once. I really can't see her as not having the other voices in her head until she cast some focus spells.
The Golarion setting has a few NPCs who are retired adventurers. It meant that sometimes an innkeeper could stop a party of 1st-level murderhobo adventurers singlehanded. PF2 Oracle will be a good class for such retired adventurers.
However, I will miss the opposite side, where the involuntary mystery and curse explain why an NPC started adventuring. I guess I will have to replace such oracles with sorcerers.
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Yeah, thematically, it'd be much better if the Curse was always on, and then you maybe got enhanced bonuses to it from spending Focus rather than level if there is still a need to tie it to Focus somehow.
I wouldn't be opposed to a more minor version of the curse being always on, but the curse progressing based on how much you exert yourself is a mechanic I would hate to abandon.
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If the curse goes back to starting at the worst level and slowly getting easier as you level, I can guarantee that I'll never play it, and neither will my wife (who loves spontaneous casters, and divine casters).
It's why neither of us ever played Oracles in PF1.