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Players are traveling down the road and goblins are hiding ready to ambush them. They PCs have made it clear that they are suspicious, alert and keeping a watchful eye for danger.
When they enter the general area where the goblins are hiding, the GM rolls Perception Checks in secret challenged by the goblins' Stealth DC +2 for cover.
Let's say one of the PCs succeeds and spots the Goblins. Combat begins and the GM calls for Initiative.
Do the PCs roll Perception for their Initiative, or does the GM use the Perception Checks rolled to spot the goblins as their initiative scores?
Do the goblins still roll their Stealth for Initiative? Or do they lose that option when they are spotted?
Does it make any difference that only 1 of the players spotted the goblins? In other systems the rest of the party would still be surprised, but here I'm not 100% sure how things should unfold.
Thanks.
Do the PCs roll Perception for their Initiative, or does the GM use the Perception Checks rolled to spot the goblins as their initiative scores?
Do the goblins still roll their Stealth for Initiative? Or do they lose that option when they are spotted?
Does it make any difference that only 1 of the players spotted the goblins? In other systems the rest of the party would still be surprised, but here I'm not 100% sure how things should unfold.
I would also like to know the answer to the first one, but in the latter case they most certainly use their Stealth for Initiative since they were using the "Avoid Notice" exploration tactic.
As for the last point, Surprise rounds no longer technically exist, as it is a special thing like Rogues Surprise Attack.
However, I would love someone with a little more knowledge on the subject to weigh in on the above example. It's something I've kinda had to play by ear in the sessions I've run because I truly don't know what's meant to be the played RAW.
If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results).
Based on this, the goblins should have rolled against the PC's Perception DCs to determine whether they are noticed. Then, if they are noticed, the party rolls initiative, but the goblins do not reroll. If they aren't noticed, the goblins keep the high roll they got and the PCs roll initiative, and presumably the goblins start in a more advantageous position. The passage suggests the roll to sneak up on the party is used as their initiative either way.
This doesn't take into account the party actively trying to spot the goblins, but none of the rules support that as far as I can tell. The Search exploration activity only talks about searching an area carefully for traps or hidden objects, and doesn't seem to be what we're looking for. Maybe the Scout activity could be used to add a +1 to the party's Perception DC for the goblins to roll against. Though that isn't written into Scout, I think that activity makes the most sense for the situation.
Edit: So in the case of the goblins sneaking up and succeeding, what actually should happen is that everyone rolls initiative, but the party doesn't notice them yet so shouldn't take any combat actions (they don't "hear the fight music"). However, to avoid the out-of-character knowledge that initiative was rolled, you can effectively give the goblins a free turn where they act undetected, and then roll initiative once they take an action that reveals themselves.
On the note of "Scout tactic" I find that particularly weird when parties try to actually scout.
Should I be telling them no don't scout? If the scout themselves gets caught, do they just roll initiative?
What if they're trying to scout while not being seen? Do they get to avoid notice?
I guess the best way to handle it would be Avoid Notice, see enemies, return, then Scout ahead?
But then they have prior knowledge that there are infact Goblins ahead, but no real bonuses to initiative (outside a +1?)
Maybe I just don't understand the rules, I do like the "activity" aspect of Exploration mode in that it's defined, but it does seem a bit hard to compensate for normal PC tactics within them (at least I haven't quite got that part down).
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On the note of "Scout tactic" I find that particularly weird when parties try to actually scout.
Should I be telling them no don't scout? If the scout themselves gets caught, do they just roll initiative?
What if they're trying to scout while not being seen? Do they get to avoid notice?
I guess the best way to handle it would be Avoid Notice, see enemies, return, then Scout ahead?
But then they have prior knowledge that there are infact Goblins ahead, but no real bonuses to initiative (outside a +1?)
Maybe I just don't understand the rules, I do like the "activity" aspect of Exploration mode in that it's defined, but it does seem a bit hard to compensate for normal PC tactics within them (at least I haven't quite got that part down).
I agree. Thankfully my players are okay with the abstract handwaving of just giving an initiative bonus normally. However, if someone really wants to scout ahead in the normal sense of the word, I would do as you suggest and have them Avoid Notice or Seek without the rest of the party, and if they get in trouble they do combat all alone as well. Splitting the party to scout is a much worse idea this edition though, since at-level enemies will be likely to spot you.
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I in my opinion it would be either "scout" or "search" in exploration mode.
"scout" in my mind is moving through an area on guard. I would give this most parties unless they are totally ignoring everything. If they are even a little wary someone is scouting...hence the +1 circumstance bonus to their initiative rolls. Still moving a normal speeds.
In this case goblin's roll stealth and party rolls perception or maybe stealth if they were "avoiding notice" with +1
"search" is when they are positive danger, they slow down and they are actively searching it out.
In this case as I the GM would roll secret perception checks against the goblins stealth dc since the pcs are activity looking. If they fail it works like above, if succeed goblins roll perception and the players roll perception unless they were a actively trying to avoid notice then they roll stealth.
Just my two cents...I hope it makes sense. I always struggle with the idea of the "active" party rolls against the dc. Some if the party is not slowing down and actively "seeking" they do get to roll. but i can see "scout" and "search" being debated i guess
So a scout then in the traditional sense who’s trying to “scout ahead and report back to the party” for say a party rogue would then be this:
PC scouring uses Avoid Notice to move ahead.
If enemy is hiding, those enemies roll against that PC perception DC, if they succeed they do not notice the enemy.
If the enemy is not hiding, as long as the PC beats the perception DC they are unnoticed.
Initiative begins and the actions slow down, where each move opens the possibility for detection (RAW that is) until the PC leaves the area where they could realistically become noticed.
PC is allowed to do Seek actions and Hide actions during this initiative stealth op, where if they are discovered the goblins could theoretically start taking actions against the PC, but until then likely spend actions doing whatever they were doing before.
PC leaves safely and informs party of what’s up ahead. Presumably GM could grant benefits here or maybe the knowledge itself is valuable enough (number of enemies, what was over heard/seen, buff time, etc.)
Doesn’t seem as bad as I thought now.
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I in my opinion it would be either "scout" or "search" in exploration mode.Per the rules, there is no special activity to look for foes, it happens automatically. Once you enter the area, Stealth DCs are rolled and then Initiative if a Perception DC is higher than any one of the Stealth checks.
"scout" in my mind is moving through an area on guard. I would give this most parties unless they are totally ignoring everything. If they are even a little wary someone is scouting...hence the +1 circumstance bonus to their initiative rolls. Still moving a normal speeds.Per the rules, it's half movement speed and is something that has to be explicitly chosen. The point is that the PC is devoting all their energy to being alert and focused on only that.
"search" is when they are positive danger, they slow down and they are actively searching it out."Search" is for objects and Hazards. "Seek" is for foes. In that case, the PCs have to be fairly specific and then they roll Perception checks vs Stealth DCs.
In this case as I the GM would roll secret perception checks against the goblins stealth dc since the pcs are activity looking.If they fail it works like above, if succeed goblins roll perception and the players roll perception unless they were a actively trying to avoid notice then they roll stealth.This one is a bit more tricky. There's a questions of whether the goblins should use their Stealth checks because Init will be rolled after the first goblin is detected, all the other goblins are still hidden, so using the existing Stealth rolls would also seem appropriate.
Some if the party is not slowing down and actively "seeking" they do get to roll. but i can see "scout" and "search" being debated i guessTechnically I don't think so. If you're not moving at the required speed, then you're technically not engaged in the activity. Nor do the rules simply allow the activity with a...
Agreed "seek" is for foes and "search" does not specifically state foes it was my thoughts on it...
I did miss that scout was half speed also so you are correct there.
I believe I remember a discussion on the youTube channel on this subject specifically by Mark S but I cannot find it.
I also agree it is will be GM's thoughts on the specific case in point
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So a scout then in the traditional sense who’s trying to “scout ahead and report back to the party” for say a party rogue would then be this:
PC scouring uses Avoid Notice to move ahead.
If enemy is hiding, those enemies roll against that PC perception DC, if they succeed they do not notice the enemy.
If the enemy is not hiding, as long as the PC beats the perception DC they are unnoticed.
Initiative begins and the actions slow down, where each move opens the possibility for detection (RAW that is) until the PC leaves the area where they could realistically become noticed.
PC is allowed to do Seek actions and Hide actions during this initiative stealth op, where if they are discovered the goblins could theoretically start taking actions against the PC, but until then likely spend actions doing whatever they were doing before.
Doesn’t seem as bad as I thought now.
As a general rule of thumb, I wouldn't actually call for initiative until combat is going to begin."Avoid Notice" will generally suffice for the purposes of seeing some enemies up ahead and reporting back. When you're unnoticed no one is looking for you, so calling for a check for each move seems excessive. This assumes that the rogue just sneaks up close enough to see that there are enemies, though. If the rogue tries to do anything but go back the way they came to report in, you might start calling for checks. As an example, if they wanted to sneak closer to be able to eavesdrop on the conversation I'd probably require another check, and if they started trying to plop some poison in the stew pot of the enemies... Well, that might be a few checks.
PC leaves safely and informs party of what’s up ahead. Presumably GM could grant benefits here or maybe the knowledge itself is valuable enough (number of enemies, what was over heard/seen, buff time, etc.)
I probably wouldn't grant more than the +1 Scouting circumstance bonus, but there's a lot of inherent advantage, yes. Weapons in hand, shields raised, fighters and monks dropping into stances, Rangers Hunting Prep, chugging elixirs... Plus stuff like snagging favorable terrain to get cover for AC and initiative bonuses.
Thanks for all the responses, everyone. This has been very helpful.
Just to make sure I'm wrapping my head around this correctly, here are a couple more example/questions:
1) Goblins win Stealth vs. the players' Perception DCs. For initiative, one of the players Rolls Perception higher than the goblins' Stealth Checks. That PC acts first. Can he attack the Goblins because he won initiative, which was his Perception being higher than their Stealth? Or Does he get to act first, but cannot do anything in relation to the Goblins because they beat his Perception DC and therefore are still Unnoticed and Undetected by him? If that's the case, I imagine he couldn't even take the Seek Action to find the Goblins as they are still Unnoticed.
2) Goblins win Stealth vs. the players' Perception DCs. They players then roll initiative. One of them is able to roll Survival instead of Perception and beats all of the goblins' Stealth Checks. That player gets to act first. Unlike in the example above, succeeding on the Survival Check means the player saw tracks that alert them there are Goblins in the area. That makes the Goblins Undetected but NOT Unnoticed, and this player would be allowed to take the Seek Action on their turn to try and spot the goblins before the goblins get to act. Is that all accurate?
Thanks for all your help!
So in the first scenario I think the goblins are hidden but not unnoticed (so they know the square but can’t directly see them, have concealment)
They can act first and attack the square or roll a seek to improve their visibility I think
The other players treat the goblins as unnoticed unless player 1 points out the square the goblins are in, in which case they become hidden to them as well.
I have literally no idea in the second scenario, but I might treat it the same. RAW I’m curious on both. That’s how I’d run it at the table with what we have so far
For the first case, I would put the characters on the map and tell whoever won initiative, "You think you just heard something, but you aren't sure." They can Seek if they want to find the goblins, or prebuff for the fight (I wouldn't call this OOC, as we're saying that their character heard something/feels like something is wrong). Only when they successfully seek or the goblins attack (or the goblins fail a Sneak check) do you put the goblins on the map. Note that I'd do it this way because the goblins intend to initiate combat. If, for example, the goblins wanted to sneak past the PCs, they wouldn't roll initiative and combat wouldn't begin (same as a PC sneaking past a guard).
The second example would be the same as the first. The goblins would all be unnoticed still, even if the PCs are aware that "something" is out there, and would only change to undetected if the PCs had some way of knowing how many goblins there were without knowing their location (maybe they could tell the number from the tracks with a good roll). But they still need to Seek to actually find the goblins.
This is my interpretation, but I could be wrong. Especially about the one winning initiative knowing "something is up".
Yes so it’s unclear to me if they go from unnoticed to undetected or from unnoticed to hidden
Unnoticed isn’t a step of stealth, since you can be both unnoticed and undetected.
So does it maybe work this way?:
Goblins roll Stealth to avoid notice, they beat the Perception DC on all of the PCs, but in initiative one of the PCs rolls higher than their stealth roll for initiative so that person treats them all as undetected but they know someone is probably nearby and they aren’t unnoticed
If the goblins fail the Stealth check against one persons DC and that person also beats them on initiative, they treat the goblins as hidden (knows the square).
Basically it takes a failed check from the goblins and a successful check to drop them to hidden, a mix result results in undetected and if both fail they are unnoticed.
That sounds reasonable at least but maybe that’s wrong
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They really need to make all of this more clear in the GameMastery Guide.
I agree that maybe some examples of moving from Exploration to Encounter, and the detection states of the various parties depending on how they were acting, would be very useful to know the "default process" which can be extrapolated to other more peculiar situations.
Don't think it needs to be in GMG though, even just an informal rundown from Mark on his show would be enough if someone can capture it for the rest of us.
If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results).Based on this, the goblins should have rolled against the PC's Perception DCs to determine whether they are noticed. Then, if they are noticed, the party rolls initiative, but the goblins do not reroll. If they aren't noticed, the goblins keep the high roll they got and the PCs roll initiative, and presumably the goblins start in a more advantageous position. The passage suggests the roll to sneak up on the party is used as their initiative either way.
Just for clarification... is "the start of an encounter" determined by when initiative is rolled? As in, the transition from Exploration Mode to Encounter Mode? If so, then it sounds like the goblins using Avoid Notice would roll Stealth again and use that total both as initiative and again compared to the players' Perception DCs to determine if the players notice them after initiative has been rolled.
If that's correct, then it would be goblins roll Stealth vs. Perception DCs when the players enter their general area, they win those checks and wait for the players to walk closer, and then spring their trap. This would be "the start of the encounter" and the transition from Exploration Mode to Encounter Mode.
The goblins would then roll Stealth again and those totals would be both ranked with the players' Perception Rolls to determine the initiative order and would also be compared again to the players' Perception DCs to determine if the goblins are still Undetected after initiative (at the start of the encounter).
You don't have to "roll stealth again" unless you've already forgotten the exact rolls they made. Remember that you only make an active roll on your turn. Let's assume it's the goblins' turn...
Situation 1) The goblins would "roll stealth again" if they are using a Hide action (getting the bonus for cover or greater cover) while they wait for the PCs to get closer.
Situation 2) The goblins would "roll stealth again" if they are using the Sneak action to move at half speed (getting the bonus for cover or greater cover if they remain under cover the whole time) to get closer to the PCs or into a more advantageous position.
(edit) If they use their Sneak action to move away and still manage to avoid detection, then they will have successfully avoided the encounter entirely.
Situation 3) The goblins wouldn't "roll stealth again" if they attack or move out into the open, since they would now be observed.
If, on the other hand, it was a PC's turn and the goblins were still undetected or unnoticed, that PC could move around, use the Seek action or whatever he wants, based on a vague feeling of unease. If he uses the Seek action, he gets a new perception roll against the goblin's Stealth DC - but only on his turn, during his actions, and it's a secret roll, so he has no idea how "perceptive" he was.
IMHO, this whole scenario isn't that hard to adjudicate, as long as the DM remembers not to give either side extra "free" rolls. Both sides get one roll based on their exploration mode activity, and additional rolls are only gained by spending actions on your turn.
You could also start Encounter mode before the players enter the area to keep track of the round by round actions.
This all makes sense, and is simple to follow. But I just want to make sure I understand the rules by RAW.
Avoid Notice says "You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed," which would mean one Stealth check when "traveling", or in this case when the PCs enter observation range of the goblins. And then the text for Avoid Notice goes on to say, "If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you."
And the entry for initiative states, "Rolling initiative marks the start of an encounter."
So it seems strictly by RAW, the "start of an encounter" is when initiative is rolled. Therefore, it would be one Stealth check for the Goblins to see if the PCs notice them when they enter the general area. And then another Stealth Check is rolled for initiative when the GM calls for initiative to be rolled. Which could be with the PCs being at the edge of observation range if one of the Goblins failed their initial Stealth check or, if they all succeeded, it could be much closer depending on wherever the goblins decide to spring their trap.