If you have mountain stance, assuming you're not actively swimming or something, you're out of mountain stance basically until it's your turn on the first round of combat. Usually you're not going to die before you can act. On your turn, spend your first action to enter mountain stance.OP clearly states he was one-shotted.
To be fair, that was the barbarian. I haven't played a monk yet. I was looking at possible builds and didn't see anything like Wis to AC, so I was asking how this gets done. Not max/min, but reasonable.
If I feel the urge to go low/no Dex and instead invest those ability boosts in mental scores for skills or roleplay or Will saves, things evidently go South. Okay. Lesson learned. I got the answer I needed.
The answer to being survivable (aside from a couple out-of-the-box ideas I wouldn't've thought of such as hit & run) is do (at least a couple of) the things I mentioned in my first post. Don't dump Dex. Don't ignore shields even though they don't feel monkey. Don't discount the two stances that assist AC. Those are all totally legit answers.
The thread has been useful to me, despite that I'm probably going cleric for my next victim^H^H^H^H^H^Hcharacter.
Thanks to everyone.
It might be easier to just think of the monk as a dex class. It's not that strength builds are not unfeasible- high strength and dex works well with dragon, ironblood, and weapon styles; high strength and low dex currently needs mountain style. It's that you don't really lose all that much by going with dex over strength.
If you maximize dex and leave strength at 12 or 14, you're hitting 18 strength at level 15 or 10 anyway. If you start with 16, you can hit 20 at 15, but leaving it at 18 works fine. The difference between a "max strength" and "max dex" monk doesn't work out to be more than a few points of damage.
But "hit and run" is a first-order optimal playstyle for most monks, IMO- since you have a built in 3 action routine of "advance, flurry, retreat." which gets you 2 attacks and keeps you out of most danger. A 20th level dex monk who worked their way up to 18 str is hitting for 4d8+4+3, a 20th level str monk with Ironblood, Mountain, or an Animal Style or a Bo-Staff is hitting for 4d8+7+3. Dragon monks can get more, but there are other tradeoffs (forceful and sweep is better than backswing, agile is great for monks, etc.)
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If I feel the urge to go low/no Dex and instead invest those ability boosts in mental scores for skills or roleplay or Will saves, things evidently go South. Okay. Lesson learned. I got the answer I needed.
Yeah, you don't get to act like having to have some common sense when building the character means you're limited when it comes to roleplaying. Unless you can somehow explain the difference in approach you would take when roleplaying a character with 12 in a mental stat compared to a 14.
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Yeah, you don't get to act like having to have some common sense when building the character means you're limited when it comes to roleplaying. Unless you can somehow explain the difference in approach you would take when roleplaying a character with 12 in a mental stat compared to a 14.If I feel the urge to go low/no Dex and instead invest those ability boosts in mental scores for skills or roleplay or Will saves, things evidently go South. Okay. Lesson learned. I got the answer I needed.
If that stat is INT, the 14 character can afford to be trained in 1 more skill which may be important to the RP.
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Ugh I hate click bait titles.
Ugh I hate click bait titles.
You hate them SO much you try to click them to death and end up in the thread? ;)
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Ugh I hate click bait titles.You hate them SO much you try to click them to death and end up in the thread? ;)
Well clearly I was baited effectively.
:P:P:P:P:P
Ugh I hate click bait titles.You hate them SO much you try to click them to death and end up in the thread? ;)Well clearly I was baited effectively.
:P:P:P:P:P
Watch out for candy and unmarked panel vans... :P
Watch out for candy and unmarked panel vans... :PUgh I hate click bait titles.You hate them SO much you try to click them to death and end up in the thread? ;)Well clearly I was baited effectively.
:P:P:P:P:P
OOOOh candy? where? In a van you say! Well pitter patter!
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This isn't a "PF2 sucks" thread. I'm genuinely asking how it's viable to build a character that isn't armored, isn't high Dex, and isn't shielded?
I don’t think it is. But it also wasn’t in PF1e or D&D 4e or D&D 3e so it shouldn’t really come as a surprise.
I asked for a specific thing (which due to Wis to AC was possible in PF1)
No it wasn’t. Dex 14 was the lowest you dared go in PF1e. There was an optimal stat array for PF1e and I’m certain it involved Dex 14 (100% guaranteed it was AT LEAST Dex 12). Dex 10 or Dex 8 wasn’t really viable because monks were so badly off as to be unplayable without high optimisation (Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat and later supplements helped reduce the amount of optimisation that was mandatory).
This isn't a "PF2 sucks" thread. I'm genuinely asking how it's viable to build a character that isn't armored, isn't high Dex, and isn't shielded?I don’t think it is. But it also wasn’t in PF1e or D&D 4e or D&D 3e so it shouldn’t really come as a surprise.
Mountain Stance is probably one of the best tools for enabling this kind of character I can think of. Sure, you're vulnerable before your turn in initiative, but there are ways around this.
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Mountain Stance is probably one of the best tools for enabling this kind of character I can think of. Sure, you're vulnerable before your turn in initiative, but there are ways around this.This isn't a "PF2 sucks" thread. I'm genuinely asking how it's viable to build a character that isn't armored, isn't high Dex, and isn't shielded?I don’t think it is. But it also wasn’t in PF1e or D&D 4e or D&D 3e so it shouldn’t really come as a surprise.
Yeah but the OP clearly stated he wanted to role play an idiot who chose not to train in the fighting style that plays into his strengths. So....
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Anguish,
I heard mention of someone saying they did what you said - low DX, no Mountain, no shield - and they compensated with Hit and Run tactics.
Probably a little rough at the low levels, but eventually, this monk was able to move into position, Flurry, and move out of position, using high movement, skirmish, reach, and avoidance abilities.
There is probably a party composition piece there (teamwork), but, I heard it was at least possible...
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Anguish,
I heard mention of someone saying they did what you said - low DX, no Mountain, no shield - and they compensated with Hit and Run tactics.Probably a little rough at the low levels, but eventually, this monk was able to move into position, Flurry, and move out of position, using high movement, skirmish, reach, and avoidance abilities.
There is probably a party composition piece there (teamwork), but, I heard it was at least possible...
That was one of the devs, actually. He made this character for the sole purpose of proving it could be done, back before Mountain Stance was solidified as the go-to option for dex dump Monks. Can't say anything for sure but from the context of who else was in that group and the fact that the campaign was there as a stress test for the system I think we can assume they weren't playing softball with this Monk.
Ugh I hate click bait titles.
Seriously, this attitude is starting to get really insulting.
I've repeatedly explained myself and made it clear that I was asking a legitimate question. If you can't handle that, the problem is with you. I'm not known for trolling. I'll debate a thing if it's intellectually interesting, but I don't waste my time or yours with clickbait. If your confidence in PF2 can't handle someone asking a question, the problem is with you, not me.
I asked for a specific thing (which due to Wis to AC was possible in PF1)No it wasn’t. Dex 14 was the lowest you dared go in PF1e. There was an optimal stat array for PF1e and I’m certain it involved Dex 14 (100% guaranteed it was AT LEAST Dex 12). Dex 10 or Dex 8 wasn’t really viable because monks were so badly off as to be unplayable without high optimisation (Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat and later supplements helped reduce the amount of optimisation that was mandatory).
In PF1, frankly if you wanted to walk around as a monk with AC 10 you could, as long as you compensated in other ways. It's not specifically what I was talking about, but if you made a point of having a really high Con, or using tactics like reach weapons, tripping, and grappling AC wasn't nearly as critical as it appears to be in PF2, purely because of the +/- 10 crit mechanic. That's not criticism of that mechanic. It's just that where you used to be able to design a character that could simply survive being hit frequently, you can't afford to do that now. I'm sure there are other quirky builds that PF2 opens up, so again, not critical. Just learning.
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Ugh I hate click bait titles.Seriously, this attitude is starting to get really insulting.
I've repeatedly explained myself and made it clear that I was asking a legitimate question. If you can't handle that, the problem is with you. I'm not known for trolling. I'll debate a thing if it's intellectually interesting, but I don't waste my time or yours with clickbait. If your confidence in PF2 can't handle someone asking a question, the problem is with you, not me.
How do I make a viable monk is a legitimate question. How is a monk viable lends one to think that they are not.
Fair enough. Keep the numbers where they're supposed to be Or Else. Got it.
If you don't have the physical attributes for the job you will not be able to do the job well.
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Ugh I hate click bait titles.Seriously, this attitude is starting to get really insulting.
I've repeatedly explained myself and made it clear that I was asking a legitimate question. If you can't handle that, the problem is with you. I'm not known for trolling. I'll debate a thing if it's intellectually interesting, but I don't waste my time or yours with clickbait. If your confidence in PF2 can't handle someone asking a question, the problem is with you, not me.
Are you too limited to be able to understand that your question in the OP had nothing to do with whether the monk qua monk is viable, and therefore is either the result of clickbait or a frightening cluelessness?
People accusing you of clickbait are taking the most charitable interpretation.
In PF1, frankly if you wanted to walk around as a monk with AC 10 you could, as long as you compensated in other ways. It's not specifically what I was talking about, but if you made a point of having a really high Con, or using tactics like reach weapons, tripping, and grappling AC wasn't nearly as critical as it appears to be in PF2, purely because of the +/- 10 crit mechanic. That's not criticism of that mechanic. It's just that where you used to be able to design a character that could simply survive being hit frequently, you can't afford to do that now. I'm sure there are other quirky builds that PF2 opens up, so again, not critical. Just learning.I asked for a specific thing (which due to Wis to AC was possible in PF1)No it wasn’t. Dex 14 was the lowest you dared go in PF1e. There was an optimal stat array for PF1e and I’m certain it involved Dex 14 (100% guaranteed it was AT LEAST Dex 12). Dex 10 or Dex 8 wasn’t really viable because monks were so badly off as to be unplayable without high optimisation (Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat and later supplements helped reduce the amount of optimisation that was mandatory).
Avoiding getting hit in PF2 does not require big numbers at AC, but it does mean having to play tactically. You will either need to really focus on mobility or make sure your party is ready to handle the challenges of protecting the most delicate of glass cannons you could have possibly built, which is still possible, with a champion buddy or strong battlefield control casting, but it is not a great solo tactic.
The monk losing wisdom as a key attribute is a big change and not one I especially love, but it is easy to have it be a second or third attribute and not have it hurt you that much. A pure Wisdom, Int, Cha monk is not an especially viable build in PF2 because the Monk is a martial artist class in this edition of the game. The purely meditative monk is probably more of a cleric or paladin of Irori with an MC into Monk, and we probably haven't gotten the archetype to really make that as feasible as it should be, yet.
I'm asking specifically with regards to armor class, figuring I'm missing something.
I've had one actual tabletop session with PF2, and played a 1st-level barbarian. She got mutilated with repeated crits because - among other things - her AC wasn't at its expected value. I was gently told I was Doing It Wrong. Her AC was 14 because: I didn't realize I could use Medium armor without speed penalty and I didn't have a high Dex, preferring to spread into Con for survivability and Cha for social skills. I reiterate, she was one-shotted due to a crit because the DM rolled a 15.
So how the heck does a monk survive? I see Expert in no armor, so +4. Same as the barbarian. If I don't put a bunch in Dex, and I don't happen to be in Mountain stance, how does such a character not also get completely owned?
Or is everyone forced to use shields for a precious character-saving +2?
This isn't a "PF2 sucks" thread. I'm genuinely asking how it's viable to build a character that isn't armored, isn't high Dex, and isn't shielded?
I haven't read the thread (I'm not much into theorycrafting) so there's a good chance people have made the following point better than me.
In my mind, the "monks need dex" is a feature of PF2 - I always thought it was odd that the way to be a good monk in PF1 was to have a big strength. My image of monks is that they're dextrous, not strong.
As such, "How do you build a monk without dex" sounds a little (to me) like "How do you build a wizard with a middling int". (Not exactly the same, given wizards are single-stat things and monks need a few stats, but similar).
I'm kind of saying "low dex monks is doing it wrong", but to some extent I don't see that as an issue in a class based game and if anything PF2 seems to have amped up the meaning of class over PF1, so I suspect minor elements like this is where that is going to show up. (I'm trying to build a dual wielding fighter at the moment and I do sometimes feel like I'm really "supposed" to be a rogue or a ranger. I think there's likely to be similar feelings as one tries to step to far outside expected class norms.)
Organized Play Developer
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That was one of the devs, actually. He made this character for the sole purpose of proving it could be done, back before Mountain Stance was solidified as the go-to option for dex dump Monks. Can't say anything for sure but from the context of who else was in that group and the fact that the campaign was there as a stress test for the system I think we can assume they weren't playing softball with this Monk.Anguish,
I heard mention of someone saying they did what you said - low DX, no Mountain, no shield - and they compensated with Hit and Run tactics.Probably a little rough at the low levels, but eventually, this monk was able to move into position, Flurry, and move out of position, using high movement, skirmish, reach, and avoidance abilities.
There is probably a party composition piece there (teamwork), but, I heard it was at least possible...
Yuppers, that was mah boy Kobra. Reposting for ease of reference-
My playtest monk, Kobra, had intentionally abysmal AC. Like, "level 12 and he's still got a 12 DEX and even the minions are critting" low AC. To keep him alive in fights, I made sure I always knew what the terrain around me looked like, and I took skill feats like Combat Climber, Powerful Leap, Quick Climb, Quick Jump, and Rapid Mantel to be able to take full advantage of the terrain and my mobility.In a boss fight for Shattered Star, we fought a primarily melee boss who could really devastate me with its attacks, so I'd flurry, Leap and Climb, Flying Kick back into the fray, and basically just keep darting in and out of combat leveling heavy strikes while our fighter tanked and made it impossible for the enemies to pin me down. Because I'd pretty much ignored DEX, my STR and WIS were pumped up pretty high so my attacks and ki powers were both pretty potent and I could lay out some devastating double-crit flurries, and because my movement speed was twice a normal character's, if anything did try to chase me down it was almost always a really bad trade for it since it might get in one hit before I obliterated it. Coordinating with my teammates for optimal positioning and tactics made Kobra a really infuriating enemy to have to deal with, since he could attack with relative impunity but was extremely difficult to pin down.
For ranged opponents I'd typically flip the script and just get right up in their face with flurries and grapples.
To be fair, it wouldn't be terribly reasonable to expect Kobra to be the baseline for Strength-dominant monks (which is why stuff like Mountain Stance got added), because it would have only taken one or two bad decisions for Kobra to get wrecked, but I played him at just about every level from 1st through 12th and Mark definitely wasn't softballing the encounters. The roughest time I had with that build was actually playing him in the first part of Doomsday Dawn;
Room A7 had all of the goblins with shortbows and other ranged attack forms and would be scary now with the various boosts that monks got. To survive that area I was basically grappling goblins and pulling them into nooks and crevices around the room to give myself as much cover as possible, just moving from one goblin shield and sheltering cranny to another.
Speaking of grappling and pulling, where are the actual rules for dragging a grappled target? It's not under Grapple, or Grabbed, or Restrained, and Grapple says that you lose your grip if you move away. I've looked all over the place for it.
grappling goblins and pulling them into nooks and crevices around the room
I know several monsters get moving grabbed enemies as a special ability (both elephants and rocs for example), so I think it isn't an option in general.
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Speaking of grappling and pulling, where are the actual rules for dragging a grappled target? It's not under Grapple, or Grabbed, or Restrained, and Grapple says that you lose your grip if you move away. I've looked all over the place for it.
grappling goblins and pulling them into nooks and crevices around the room
I believe that mechanically what I was actually doing was spending an action to Shove and then a second action to Grapple or something along those lines, but it's been over a year now since that encounter so I'm not actually 100% sure (outside of some grab and throw flavored class feats I don't think there's an actual Drag action). I'll ask Mark or Logan about it when one of them gets into the office.
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HERE is a Monk I've built for a new campaign; at least on paper he's fairly tanky (18AC, 20 with a shield raised, and Shield Block reaction) and hits like a truck (1d10+4 Dragon Tail attacks at +7 / +2 for a Flurry of Blows, with an extra +1 to attack +1d6 damage as a Focus ability.)
I imagine Tiger Stance will be the better stance power overall, but he seems fairly viable
Without armor, a character will have to put stats into DEX or rely on magical items to boost AC- especially if they are melee- in order to survive.
Can't expect to be in people's faces dealing damage without the ability to dodge or take damage yourself.