Tripping with a Whip

[Atalius]

I am creating a Bard character. I have a question regarding the Whip. Since it is a Finesse weapon I believe you can Trip using your Dex mod instead of STR for the attack roll correct? Or would it be STR check since that's what Athletics is?

[Zwordsman]

You can use Dex if you wish. While Trip is Athletics. it is also labeled with the ATtack Trait. So it is an attack roll. be aware that you take MAP (multi attack pen)

attack
An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty.

finesse
You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage.

[lordcirth]

Zwordsman wrote:

You can use Dex if you wish. While Trip is Athletics. it is also labeled with the ATtack Trait. So it is an attack roll. be aware that you take MAP (multi attack pen)

attack
An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty.

finesse
You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage.

I believe the Trip is an Athletics check with the attack trait, rather than an attack roll. And therefore you'd have to use strength to trip. But I'm not sure.

[Atalius]

Does the Fighter suffer a MAP on his AOO?

[lordcirth]

Atalius wrote:

Does the Fighter suffer a MAP on his AOO?

No.

[Zwordsman]

lordcirth wrote:

I believe the Trip is an Athletics check with the attack trait, rather than an attack roll. And therefore you'd have to use strength to trip. But I'm not sure.

attack trait

An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty.

From the attack roll section
When you use a Strike action or any other attack action, you attempt a check called an attack roll.

Attack trait means that it involves an attack. That would make it an attack action. If you roll any kind of attack action, you roll an attack roll check.
If it involves an attack and takes the MAP. Then its an attack roll right?
(I'm not being sarcastic or anything. Explaining my line of thinking in case I have holes in my internal logic)

[lordcirth]

Zwordsman wrote:

lordcirth wrote:

I believe the Trip is an Athletics check with the attack trait, rather than an attack roll. And therefore you'd have to use strength to trip. But I'm not sure.

attack trait

An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty.

From the attack roll section
When you use a Strike action or any other attack action, you attempt a check called an attack roll.

Attack trait means that it involves an attack. That would make it an attack action. If you roll any kind of attack action, you roll an attack roll check.
If it involves an attack and takes the MAP. Then its an attack roll right?
(I'm not being sarcastic or anything. Explaining my line of thinking in case I have holes in my internal logic)

I'm not sure. I think this is yet another thing we need an FAQ on.

[Atalius]

Zwordsman wrote:

You can use Dex if you wish. While Trip is Athletics. it is also labeled with the ATtack Trait. So it is an attack roll. be aware that you take MAP (multi attack pen)

attack
An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty.

finesse
You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage.

So basically I can put my Dex mod in place of Str mod for Athletics when Tripping correct? And Tripping doesn't deal damage right?

[Zwordsman]

ASSUMING I'm right.

Yeah, dex not str (when using the whip. DUE to the whip finesse), and no damage (as per normal tripping).

[rayous brightblade]

I know in the playtest one of the developers confirmed thats how it worked and the wording hasn't changed.

[painted_green]

The attack trait does not imply that you roll an attack roll. It just means that the corresponding roll is affected by the multiple attack penalty. A Trip maneuver always uses Athletics, as stated in the chapter on skills (if there were other options, it would appear somewhere else in the book, most likely in the list of basic actions in the rules chapter). All that the trip trait on the whip does is allow you to use the reach of the whip for your maneuver, as well as let you drop the weapon on a critical failure and add the item bonus of the whip to your check, if any (so if it's a +2 whip, you get +2 to your trip check). It does not change the fact that Trip uses an Athletics check.

[Atalius]

Ah damn thanks Painted Green for the clarity. Welp that sucks.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Yeah, was going to say. There are plenty of spells that don't involve attack rolls that have the attack trait.

It is there for other reasons. Although again, we really need a FAQ to make it clear that the athletics checks count as attack rolls and not just skill checks with the attack trait that increase the MAP.

As written the rules are a bit ambiguous (although I am 99% certain that anything that uses a d20 roll and has the attack trait is considered an attack roll)

[Zwordsman]

Finnesse trait spepcifies you use Dex for attack rolls usin "this " melee weapon. Trip trait on a weapon specifies you're using the weapon to trip. Also mentions using the item bonus to attack rolls on the athletics roll.
Attack Rolls are determined by the ATtack Trait. Attack trait does not mean it has an attack roll-it may not have any roll.
but if it has a roll, and the trait, its an attack roll by nature.

Thats how this system determine what is or is not an attack (the trait). Escape for intance has the Attack Trait as well. STrike is an Attack roll. but not all Attack rolls are strikes.

Additionally yeah, there was a few clarifications during the playtest that it works. Though playtest has no baring on the final version I suppose.

Presumably Ranged Trip on an Aklys will use Dex though. but also does not directly call it out. But it specifies using hte item bonus for attack rolls on the athletics roll. (which would be a ranged attack roll presumably which would use dex but again doesn't directly state)

Would be nice if there was something actually calling something out. Because all of this is tangental transitive property going on. Though if the trait makes anything an attack. Than any rolls involved would be n attack roll.
Because Attack Rolls within this sytem are not defined by any other measure I can find.
Does anyone find a direct calll out to what attack roll is? Other than the trait?

Edit: as the attack roll (added below) states "attack action" which as near as I can tell is only determined by the trait itself.

and just for reference:

Finesse
Source Core Rulebook pg. 282
You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage.

Trip
Source Core Rulebook pg. 283
You can use this weapon to Trip with the Athletics skill even if you don’t have a free hand. This uses the weapon’s reach (if different from your own) and adds the weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to the Athletics check. If you critically fail a check to Trip using the weapon, you can drop the weapon to take the effects of a failure instead of a critical failure.

Attack
Source Core Rulebook pg. 629
An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty.

Strike Single Action
Attack
Source Core Rulebook pg. 471
You attack with a weapon you’re wielding or with an unarmed attack, targeting one creature within your reach (for a melee attack) or within range (for a ranged attack). Roll the attack roll for the weapon or unarmed attack you are using, and compare the result to the target creature’s AC to determine the effect. See Attack Rolls on page 446 and Damage on page 450 for details on calculating your attack and damage rolls.

Escape Single Action
Attack
Source Core Rulebook pg. 470
You attempt to escape from being grabbed, immobilized, or restrained. Choose one creature, object, spell effect, hazard, or other impediment imposing any of those conditions on you. Attempt a check using your unarmed attack modifier against the DC of the effect. This is typically the Athletics DC of a creature grabbing you, the Thievery DC of a creature who tied you up, the spell DC for a spell effect, or the listed Escape DC of an object, hazard, or other impediment. You can attempt an Acrobatics or Athletics check instead of using your attack modifier if you choose (but this action still has the attack trait).

Ranged Trip
Source Bestiary pg. 85
This weapon can be used to Trip with the Athletics skill at a distance up to the weapon’s first range increment. The skill check takes a –2 circumstance penalty. You can add the weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls as a bonus to the check. As with using a melee weapon to trip, a ranged trip doesn’t deal any damage when used to Trip. This trait usually only appears on a thrown weapon.

Edit:
Forgot to link the actual thing too
attack rolls 446 https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=321

When you use a Strike action or any other attack action, you attempt a check called an attack roll. Attack rolls take a variety of forms and are often highly variable based on the weapon you are using for the attack, but there are three main types: melee attack rolls, ranged attack rolls, and spell attack rolls. Spell attack rolls work a little bit differently, so they are explained separately on the next page

There's more to it but its very long.

[pauljathome]

I think that we're at the point we need an official answer. Both points of view seem perfectly reasonable to me. And unfortunately enough has changed that the developers comment on the playtest has little to no weight.

So, FAQ the original post

Edit : hmm. No FAQ button. That seems a mistake

[Zwordsman]

Hmm yup no FAQ. Weird.

Well I imagine they don't want to start FAQ listings too much while they're trying to catch up and do things. Lot of "fresh release" work going ono I imagine.

Well for now talk to DM.
PFS...uh.. who knows!

[Xenocrat]

I think the FAQ button is probably not going to appear until after they release the first FAQ of things they already know about. They may also give new guidance on how to do FAQs in the future.

Or maybe they'll never do FAQs in PF2 after the first release and adopt the de facto Starfinder policy without the false hope.

[Atalius]

Any update on this?

[Gortle]

Atalius wrote:

I am creating a Bard character. I have a question regarding the Whip. Since it is a Finesse weapon I believe you can Trip using your Dex mod instead of STR for the attack roll correct? Or would it be STR check since that's what Athletics is?

Did we ever get anywhere with a ruling on this? I'd like to use a whip to trip as well.....

[beowulf99]

I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to use your Dex rather than your Str with trip, even without using a Whip to do so.

CRB PG. 233 "Skills: Key Ability" wrote:

If the GM deems it appropriate for a

certain situation, however, they might have you use a different ability modifier for
a skill check or when determining your skill DC.

This tells me that, at your GM's discretion, you could use any ability mod for just about any skill check within reason. Athletics is one of the best examples of a skill that could use either str or dex for many of it's actions.

I could see a Dex based Grappler working pretty well. Ray Mysterio vs. a Str based grappler's Stone Cold Steve Austin.

As to using a trip weapon like a Whip, I would generally agree that if you are able to finesse the weapon in it's normal use, it would only makes sense that this would apply to all uses of that weapon.

[Henro]

So, about the whip thing (I'm going to need to quote a lot of rules, since this will be the consequence of several traits and rules interacting):

First, attack rolls:

CRB page 446, "Attack Rolls" wrote:

When you use a Strike action or any other attack action, you attempt a check called an attack roll.

Since trip has the attack trait, the athletics check is an attack roll.

Second, the trip weapon trait:

CRB, trip trait wrote:

You can use this weapon to Trip with the Athletics skill even if you don’t have a free hand. This uses the weapon’s reach (if different from your own) and adds the weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to the Athletics check. If you critically fail a check to Trip using the weapon, you can drop the weapon to take the effects of a failure instead of a critical failure.

Importantly, this means you are tripping with the weapon itself. This is important because:

Finally, the finesse trait:

CRB, finesse trait wrote:

You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage.

Since the trip attempt is an attack roll made using the whip, finesse tripping should be possible.

[Gortle]

beowulf99 wrote:

I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to use your Dex rather than your Str with trip, even without using a Whip to do so.

CRB PG. 233 "Skills: Key Ability" wrote:

If the GM deems it appropriate for a

certain situation, however, they might have you use a different ability modifier for
a skill check or when determining your skill DC.

This tells me that, at your GM's discretion, you could use any ability mod for just about any skill check within reason. Athletics is one of the best examples of a skill that could use either str or dex for many of it's actions.

I could see a Dex based Grappler working pretty well. Ray Mysterio vs. a Str based grappler's Stone Cold Steve Austin.

As to using a trip weapon like a Whip, I would generally agree that if you are able to finesse the weapon in it's normal use, it would only makes sense that this would apply to all uses of that weapon.

Thanks. Given the finesse weapon I do think you are reasonable here using Dex with athletics checks made with that weapon. Seems pretty good grounds for the GM to agree.

[Gortle]

Henro wrote:

...Athletics check...

...attack roll...

I see the argument and it is good. Its just not air tight, as you are equating an attack roll to a skill check that has the attack trait. It is possible to argue that these are not the same.

The fact that there is explicit advice for GMs to consider other ability scores with skill checks, seems better to me.

[Henro]

Gortle wrote:

Henro wrote:

...Athletics check...

...attack roll...

I see the argument and it is good. Its just not air tight, as you are equating an attack roll to a skill check that has the attack trait. It is possible to argue that these are not the same.

My argument covers this: the first rule I quoted specifies that all checks attempted as a result of attack actions are attack rolls.

If this weren't the case, trip attempts would not take penalties from MAP.

[Gortle]

Henro wrote:

Gortle wrote:

Henro wrote:

...Athletics check...

...attack roll...

I see the argument and it is good. Its just not air tight, as you are equating an attack roll to a skill check that has the attack trait. It is possible to argue that these are not the same.

My argument covers this: the first rule I quoted specifies that all checks attempted as a result of attack actions are attack rolls.

If this weren't the case, trip attempts would not take penalties from MAP.

Ok. I agree with your logic. This is resolved

[Sammy T]

One of the devs, Stephen Radney McFarland, said during the playtest on the Facebook forums that you could use your DEX to trip in place of STR if using a finesse weapon.

[The Raven Black]

The most recent errata clarified that it is STR for Atletics checks, even if they have the Attack tag (and thus follow the MAP rules). And even with Finesse weapons.

[Gortle]

The Raven Black wrote:

The most recent errata clarified that it is STR for Atletics checks, even if they have the Attack tag (and thus follow the MAP rules). And even with Finesse weapons.

No. That is not what was said in the errata.

What the errata clarified was that Athletics checks with the attack trait, are special attacks and are not attack rolls.

This undoes only one of the two arguments in this thread.

The second CRB PG. 233 "Skills: Key Ability" The GM can require or allow the use of different ability for skills as he sees fit. Is still valid.

So while STR may now be the default, I really do think that most GMs will still require DEX for tripping with Finesse weapons. With good justification.

[Cordell Kintner]

The way you would Trip with a whip is to have the whip wrap around the targets feet, and then yank them out from under the target. This would require strength to pull off, not finesse. There are some cases where finesse would be likely, like putting your foot in front of a moving target so their foot stops while their body continues forward, but a Whip would not use Dex to trip someone in my opinion.

[Midnightoker]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

The way you would Trip with a whip is to have the whip wrap around the targets feet, and then yank them out from under the target. This would require strength to pull off, not finesse.

You could just as easily argue that spinning with your weight during the trip motion acrobatically creates the force that allows DEX to hit in the same way attempting a strike with it can be used finesse.

Finesse means perfect body control, not utter lack of power.

[TwilightKnight]

Here's the thing, its your game, do it your way. In my campaigns I allow Acrobatics to be used for finesse weapons with the trip or disarm traits.

As Gortle said, the core rules allow for the GM to use different ability scores when applicable, ie Dex for Athletics. So, this could work even in org play, though expect table variation.

[Squiggit]

Why necro a year old thread though for this discussion? There's plenty of recent ones where this has been talked to death.

[Midnightoker]

Squiggit wrote:

Why necro a year old thread though for this discussion? There's plenty of recent ones where this has been talked to death.

*steps onto Soapbox*

"Hear ye, hear ye, the tales and woes of a once-proud user of the Spiked Chain. `Tis but a shame we should find ourselves in times such as these, for once we bore the pride of the Tome of Thryse and Haff.

Please I ask but a mere trifle, toss a few from your house into mine hat, for the road is troubled ahead and what once was an easy trip has become quite arduous."

[Cordell Kintner]

Anyway here's what the FAQ actually says:

FAQ wrote:

Page 446: Attack Rolls. There was some confusion as to whether skill checks with the attack trait (such as Grapple or Trip) are also attack rolls at the same time. They are not. To make this clear, add this sentence to the beginning of the definition of attack roll "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."

Finesse Trait wrote:

You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage.

Trip is not an attack roll, you can not finesse with it. End of story.

[Gortle]

Squiggit wrote:

Why necro a year old thread though for this discussion? There's plenty of recent ones where this has been talked to death.

Because he is going through an making old threads have the right answer at the bottom of them. Which is a good thing.

However the answer is not so clear cut.

[Gortle]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

Anyway here's what the FAQ actually says:

FAQ wrote:

Page 446: Attack Rolls. There was some confusion as to whether skill checks with the attack trait (such as Grapple or Trip) are also attack rolls at the same time. They are not. To make this clear, add this sentence to the beginning of the definition of attack roll "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."

Finesse Trait wrote:

You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage.

Trip is not an attack roll, you can not finesse with it.

True

Cordell Kintner wrote:

End of story.

False.

See previous.

[TwilightKnight]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

Trip is not an attack roll, you can not finesse with it. End of story.

You can keep saying that and my players will just keep on doing it

The First Rule, CRB p7 wrote:

The first rule of Pathfinder is that this game is yours. Use it to tell the stories you want to tell, be the character you want to be, and share exciting adventures with friends. If any other rule gets in the way of your fun, as long as your group agrees, you can alter or ignore it to fit your story. The true goal of Pathfinder is for everyone to enjoy themselves.

Mic drop

[Cordell Kintner]

Yes, GMs can change the rules, we all get that, but this forum is about how the rules are written in the book. The rules are clear that you do not get to use the Finesse trait on Athletics checks to Trip if you are using a Finesse Trip weapon. You are only muddying the waters when you try to point out that GMs might allow it, which is something we all understand.

You normally can't. If your GM allows it, then cool, have fun.

[TwilightKnight]

Well then I guess the “sometimes the GM will substitute different ability score modifiers than the standard” can just go in the trash, because if you don’t allow it in the clear case of Dex to Athletics for a finessible weapon, then I cannot imagine any case that would pass your muster.

Seems like this is just another example of some people’s obsession with RAW and ignoring the equally valid and fundamental rules written into the game that the designers not only expect you vary the rules, they encourage it.

[Squiggit]

No one's disputed that GMs and home tables have a lot of discretion, they always have and always will.

But that doesn't suddenly invalidate discussing what the baseline assumptions of the game are.

[Gortle]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

Yes, GMs can change the rules, we all get that, but this forum is about how the rules are written in the book. The rules are clear that you do not get to use the Finesse trait on Athletics checks to Trip if you are using a Finesse Trip weapon. You are only muddying the waters when you try to point out that GMs might allow it, which is something we all understand.

You normally can't. If your GM allows it, then cool, have fun.

This is not the First Rule the group can change anything they want. It could be but is not.

This is a specific rule, ( CRB PG. 233 "Skills: Key Ability") that the GMs are supposed to be interpreting the appropriate ability score to roll a particular skill against based on the particular situation.

[TwilightKnight]

Squiggit wrote:

But that doesn't suddenly invalidate discussing what the baseline assumptions of the game are.

Perhaps, but that’s a far cry from the “End of Story” from upthread. That’s the part I think we had an issue with. There is plenty within the rules to support an argument for GM interpretation on this matter. Definitive statements like that are counter-productive.

[Plane]

Wow, three threads to choose from to chime in on this...

I don't like how Paizo issued this errata. It feels clunky and contrived. Why make this clarification that Athletic attack maneuvers aren't "Attack Rolls?" If it's just to shut down Finesse, why not just specify that? This mincing of words now clashes with MAP or Multi "ATTACK" Penalty which does apply to Athletic attacks.

I know you can say, Ah but Attack Roll vs. Attack, but this is a level of word-mincing that feels contrived and unnecessary especially when we consider P2 is supposed to simplify not complexify mechanics.

Boiling down my thoughts, I would allow a player to make the case for a Finesse weapon with an Athletics Attack like Rapier's Disarm to allow them to use Dex for a Disarm attempt. That seems to me like the point of choosing the Finesse weapon. I get that they want to be strict about requiring Strength for Athletics, but I'll favor my players in this situation. If they picked one of these weapons specifically for its maneuver and built their character around using it with Dex, go for it. It's already got poor damage as a counter. This isn't going to imbalance it.

I would not allow players wielding a Finesse weapon to use Dex for an Athletics maneuver with their free hand, meaning doing a maneuver the weapon itself does not grant. In this case, it's not the weapon doing the maneuver, it's you, so that's on your Strength.

I know folks like to land on RAW, so I'll admit I am clearly in opposition to the clarification and talking house rules here.

[The Raven Black]

I felt it was important to mention the errata in threads that mentioned the dev's input from playtest, so that new readers would not start with an incorrect understanding.

I thank you for correcting my take on the errata if I missed something.