I wonder if this combination would work, considering
Spring Attack:
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Redirect Force:
Benefit: If the ninja has a feat that allows her to attempt a combat maneuver without provoking attacks of opportunity, she can choose to provoke them anyway when she performs that maneuver. If she does so and takes damage from the attack of opportunity, the ninja adds the damage as a bonus on her attack roll instead of as a penalty.
Combat maneuver"
Some combat maneuvres (dirty trick, disarm) can be made as an attack action, and can be used during a Spring Attack.
Question 1: Would Spring Attack qualify as a feat that allows the ninja to attempt a combat maneuver without provoking attacks of opportunity?
Question 2: Will this make it possible to use Canny Tumble during Spring Attack?
I am new to this board, please forgive me any mistakes.
@Q1: No, Spring Attack's "without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack" refers only to the movement. Anything else you do that provokes AoOs still does so.
@Q2: I don't see why not. I'd say it's not worth the risk of failing the acrobatics check (and the half speed limitation), but even though it's unnessessary to make the acrobatics check due to Spring Attack, you still can if you choose to.
Hello Derklord, thank you for your quick response.
After I read a lot of discussion threads, i came to the conclusion that it was accepted that "any attacks of opportunity", would include other then from movement.
And after reading a lot of discussion threads about the combination Canny Tumble and Spring Attack i came to the conclusion it can't be combined, because Spring Attack will NOT provoke AoO, and Canny Tumble only works when you use Acro to prevent AoO, Since there wil be no AoO, you can't use Canny Tumble to prevent one.
for the threads clarity:
Canny Tumble: Benefit: When you use Acrobatics to move through an opponent’s threatened area or space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your next melee attack roll against that opponent and that opponent is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, as long as you make that attack before the start of your next turn.
But maybe there has been a FAQ or errata, that clarified that point, of which i have no knowledge. I would love to see these, if they exist.
@1 I agree with you, when you should see it that it would ONLY prevents AoO from movement (en thus not ANY movement, As RAW)
@2 I disagree, because you can't use ACRO to prevent something that will not happen in the first place. But that discussion comes down to the way you look at the first part of the first sentence. If you read it like this:
"When you use Acrobatics to move through an opponent’s threatened area or space (red: you have a choice to do so, and when you do so and the outcome is a succes than thus) without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent.....
it is a different reading than:
When you use Acrobatics to move (through an opponent’s threatened area or space) without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent.
In the first reading you do not have to use Acro to prevent AoO, in the second reading it will only work when you use it to prevent an AoO.
I am curious if there has been any clarification about how these (@1 and @2) are supposed to function, as RAW.
And for the reason i would want a tumbling Spring Attack:
I play a rogue which has a high acrobatics (+20, level 8). I have Daredevil Softpawn Boots, so when i tumble through an enemys space, i would get a +4 to attack (Canny Tumble and Boots), and it will deny Dex to the Ac of the enemy, (so effectively probably a +6 to attack) AND i could make a SNeak Attack (if i would make a normal attack in stead of a combat maneuvre).
These are, to me, a lot of good reasons to want to tumble through an enemys square)
After I read a lot of discussion threads, i came to the conclusion that it was accepted that "any attacks of opportunity", would include other then from movement.
Well, the way it's written it's unclear. What we do know is that the CRB often is overly general with the language. For instance, Shield Master says "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon", but by this FAQ we know that it only applies to the TWF penalties, not any penalty you might have (Power Attack, non-proficiency, etc.). So even though there is nothing explicit in the rules, I'd expect any GM to only apply the Spring Attack clause to AoOs from movement, because I think we all agree that this is the most likely intend.
For reference, the 3.5 Player's Handbook does make it clear that only the movement doesn't provoke. The feat desperately needed a re-write, so I don't think they intentionally change the provoke-part.
You are trained in fast melee attacks and fancy footwork.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you
can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total
distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way
does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you
attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other
creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing
heavy armor.
You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your
attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.
Special: A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter
bonus feats (see page 38).
And after reading a lot of discussion threads about the combination Canny Tumble and Spring Attack i came to the conclusion it can't be combined, because Spring Attack will NOT provoke AoO, and Canny Tumble only works when you use Acro to prevent AoO, Since there wil be no AoO, you can't use Canny Tumble to prevent one.
I was treating "use Acrobatics to move through an opponent’s threatened area or space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent" as a single term, but you're right that it might not be. The wording in Acrobatics is close but not identical.
The question is basicaly whether you need to succeed on the acrobatics check, or if making the check is what triggers Canny Tumble. The wording can be interpreted both ways, but I guess the latter is more likely. I concede the point!
Edit: As you only provoke for leaving a square, not entering one, the acrobatics check only happens after you've made your attack from Spring Attack anyway, so Canny Tumble doesn't help you there unless you move around more than needed, or the enemy has reach.
Have you looked at the Circling Mongoose feat? It has Spring Attack as a tax feat prereq, but it should be interesting for you. You wouldn't get the +2 from the boots as you're not moving through the opponent's space (only their threatened area), but you get flanking instead.
Hello Derklord, thanx for your reply. I agree that the intention with Spring Attack is most likely only the AoO caused by movement.
Consider this situation:
A X1 E X2 X3 X4
Where A is me, and E is for enemy
I agree that the most likely is that making the check wil trigger Canny Tumble.
But if it wouldnt:
The combination Canny Tumble with Spring Attack would still work, imho, cause the tumbling takes place when i tumble through the enemys space,
(at E so to speak), after that i come to X2 (when i succeed the acrobatics check), i could attack the enemy at X2 (with the extra's from Canny Tumble and my Boots), and then move furher to X3 or X4.
But these are just lost hopes :-)
I have read the Circling Mongoose feat, which is really great, i really consider taking that one in my next level.
Thank you kindly for your help