Out of interest why is a Goliath druid living in and keen to liberate Kintargo? May seem flippant but you don’t really want someone saying two and a half books in - “I could just leave town you know “
As to the dinosaur - doesnt it start quite small? I didn’t think any animal companions started as large but I could be wrong
I believe the players guide mentions animals aren’t unusual . Only if it is large size will there be a real issue. And once that happens the small rooms most of this campaign takes place in may be problematic
People have posted about increasing notoriety for obviously noticeable PCs so you could consider that? Hard to stay under wraps if you are a dinosaur or a group of grippli or aasimar for example...
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it's probably not a good character concept for the AP. work with them to adjust it.
there's many 'social' scenarios in the book and having a triceratops walking around isn't going to make sense. you can get away with a fox or a cat or a raven though.
also... bardish superstar also having a pet dinosaur? what sort of party did you allow? did you not send them the player's guide?
it goes through the best familiars / companions for the RP. large dinosaurs are not listed amongst them.
it's probably not a good character concept for the AP. work with them to adjust it.
there's many 'social' scenarios in the book and having a triceratops walking around isn't going to make sense. you can get away with a fox or a cat or a raven though.
also... bardish superstar also having a pet dinosaur? what sort of party did you allow? did you not send them the player's guide?
it goes through the best familiars / companions for the RP. large dinosaurs are not listed amongst them.
Is your bardish superstar comment a joke? Apologies if it is but it doesn’t come across online!
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Out of interest why is a Goliath druid living in and keen to liberate Kintargo? May seem flippant but you don’t really want someone saying two and a half books in - “I could just leave town you know “There is not a problem with motivation – Goliath being just an archetype, he’s just a good druid that found this particular lord disagreeable. I don’t think he will go ‘I abandon this city’. That player is really fine – and going along with the campaign just fine. It is more of a case of an experienced player that enjoys having weird builds than ‘give me my toy or I WILL REBEL’.
Now, I am really OK with this. However, I wonder how I should handle this – as on one hand AP is supposed to be about being low profile, and OTOH everyone (Haace, Sargaeta, etc.) is able to just waltz in Silver Raven’s den anyway. Cheliax is supposed to be prejudiced and hateful of many races and outsiders, yet I would be hard pressed to find many NPC for whom race has been an obstacle. And well... Kintargo has half a Bestiary hidden in it and noone bats an eyelid.
So… I wonder what perfect balance is, so the player would have his fun, yet Kintargo would be oppressive enough. Sure, I may increase Notoriety – thanks for the suggestion! - and warn that it’s either brining animal companion or increase of Notoriety. (I think he would leave his companion in hideout.) However, I wonder what problems should be aside from duh, you may have trouble being sneaky. Guards asking them to put a muzzle on? ‘You cannot pass!’ at bridges at gates? Player-tailored Proclamation forced removal of any reptile from the street?
also... bardish superstar also having a pet dinosaur? what sort of party did you allow? did you not send them the player's guide?I was talking about Shensen and not second PC’s animal companion, you know. I’d rather not deal with ‘Oh, and you told me that dinosaurs are a big no-no for Kintargo’s socialites?’ sulking down the line. :-)
Thanks for the remark...
bear makes sense - street & circus performers in olden days (also not so olden days) frequently had trained bears for their shows.
having a dancing bear makes sense in a lot of ways, given the fact that the impetus for the whole AP is a shuttered opera house and an attack on the artist community ;-)
i guess a dancing dinosaur might make sense. dunno what a druid would be doing with a dancing dinosaur though...
i dunno. i'm a big fan of sticking to the 'conventional' stuff.
No I was wondering if Yakmam has missed that Shensen has a pet dinosaur. I could tell you didn’t
I urge you to watch out for size - the maps are mostly small in this AP. I know because on of my players complains about it quite a lot
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on one hand AP is supposed to be about being low profile
No, it isn't. It's "about" organizing people to build power. The game gives you the tools to do that while keeping a low profile, and a lot of people assume they're meant to be playing the 26th July Movement, however, it is by no means the default assumption. If anything the assumption is that the PCs become popular public figures fairly quickly.
There isn't a right or wrong answer to the OP's question. The AP is written in downright contradictory fashion. There's a Notoriety score for the pc's/Rebellion that has negative (sometimes significant) consequences for going up and yet at many turns the AP assumes anyone who wants to talk to the Silver Ravens knows who they are and just where to find them. This is a deliberate feature of the AP - our friends from Paizo want the AP to be as flexible as possible (usable by the widest groups of players/pc's.) So it's left to the GM to decide how to handle it and which level of plausibility to sustain in the campaign. So some tables will be perfectly fine with both of those features and won't bat an eye at the ease with which quest givers show up at their door. Other groups would get freaked out or annoyed that everyone with a cat needing to be rescued knows exactly who they are and where to find them despite significant efforts to remain hidden/secret.
Quite simply, a pc with a dinosaur companion would be unhidable in a city of <12k people. Let alone a city ruled by Asmodeus worshippers and a whole cadre of Inquisitors and investigators, etc. Unless the pc's eliminate not just every participant in any Silver Raven encounter but every possible witness as well, a dinosaur is going to be the #1 thing everyone remembers about the encounter.
The fact that the most popular rebel in the city pre-Night of Ashes had one doesn't make that better, it makes it worse.
But if you want to turn the realism dial down from 10 so you can turn the fun dial up, that's a fair choice. The people at the table are going to have to agree that sometimes the outcomes of the campaign will not necessarily be the most realistic or plausible.
I'd also argue that an animal companion that has to be constantly hidden or left behind isn't very fun not to mention potentially weakening the associated pc whose class features assume he's getting support from said animal companion. I'd probably ask the player to choose another weird companion who can blend in easier - make it a challenge to the player's creativity. You could also point out without too much spoilery that a major NPC in the campaign already has a dinosaur companion so he wouldn't be very original. (Though this could have the affect of encouraging the player...)
As an aside there is lots of discussion throughout the boards about how to have the NPC “quest givers” (Hetamon, Setrona, the Captain) ID the PCs that is not just walking up to them directly
For example I had Hetamon present as a kind of community leader during the tooth fairy incident. Also I had it implied he knew the revolutionary spirt in them from the very start and helped pull them together for the protest
But the dinosaur helps make the above not an issue - with the lack of direct action being simply because Thrune doesn’t plot direct action for some time
There are of course some events where it will be a real stretch for a dinosaur to be allowed in...
But I don’t think it should be penalised
On regards to Thrune and Friends(tm) not stomping the PC's at low levels, that's baked into the AP. With access to divination and a vast network of allies and informants in a relatively small city Barzy could easily track down the party and Night of Ashes 2.0. But he doesn't, because he doesn't see them as a threat. And by the time he does, they're too popular to martyr quietly (which may be another contradiction if your PC's were super secretive like mine).
Having a dinosaur should definitely stand out (as much as any exotic pet would) but I doubt the guard would treat it any differently than a lion or bear. It's just a big animal, and as long as it behaves it isn't a problem.
That said, I have a gunslinger in my game and I do totally increase noteriety any time he uses his weapon in an encounter that draws attention or gets investigated later. If anything gunshot wounds have become a Silver Raven calling card in my campaign. I'd do the same for dinosaur based carnage.
As an aside, since my PC's were extremely secrecy focused I ignored the whole "X NPC automatically locates your hidden location" and let the PC's be more proactive in finding allies. Two examples:
They found Hetamon Haace covered in blood from his murdered congregation member. Being a tiefling and fearing vigilante justice, he fled and I ran the chase rules. Eventually the party caught him and sorted things out.
Instead of Elia Nones magically zeroing in on the party, I had her asking around for them at the docks and some SR supporters overheard her and helped arrange a meeting on the PC's terms.
Both didn't take narrative control from the players. So that's what I did.
As an aside, since my PC's were extremely secrecy focused I ignored the whole "X NPC automatically locates your hidden location" and let the PC's be more proactive in finding allies. Two examples:
They found Hetamon Haace covered in blood from his murdered congregation member. Being a tiefling and fearing vigilante justice, he fled and I ran the chase rules. Eventually the party caught him and sorted things out.
Instead of Elia Nones magically zeroing in on the party, I had her asking around for them at the docks and some SR supporters overheard her and helped arrange a meeting on the PC's terms.
Both didn't take narrative control from the players. So that's what I did.
A bit off topic but since I did something similar with Nones and had interesting results just last night I thought I would mention it here. I had her searching for the Ravens instead of automatically letting her find them. I thought this gave the players more control about what events/threads they chose in which order.
Since the pc's knew about both Nones and the Lucky Bones, they chose to explore the Lucky Bones first. So they finished the Lucky Bones and then met with Nones and then Captain Sargaeta. Short version: they were 7th level by the time they got around to "rescuing" Marquel. Not much challenge for them: <bing> Urban Ranger is invisible. <bing> Urban Ranger can fly. Urban ranger flies to Marquel's window, gets his attention and delivers message. Marquel indicates he wants to be rescued. Urban Ranger commits that he and his allies will return that night. Says the group will send a message via Silver Raven if plan needs to change. Urban Ranger flies away. While the group discusses what to do, they come up with a plan. Why don't we have the wizard dimension door in and dimension door out then disguise Marquel and simply walk back to the Scourge? So they update Marquel via Silver Raven and it's pretty easy to find a discrete location to dimension door to and from from and bing, bang, boom it's done.
It was all good. I don't mind if players use their abilities smartly to overcome obstacles, etc. Just a cautionary note that if you make the AP more sandboxy, the players may take up the challenges in unexpected order which might lead to them being either under or over leveled for a particular encounter.
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on one hand AP is supposed to be about being low profileNo, it isn't. It's "about" organizing people to build power. The game gives you the tools to do that while keeping a low profile, and a lot of people assume they're meant to be playing the 26th July Movement, however, it is by no means the default assumption. If anything the assumption is that the PCs become popular public figures fairly quickly.
clearly, it's not supposed to be the 26th July movement.
it's supposed to be a successful June Rebellion of 1832.
i.e. Les Miserables
"Do you hear the people sing?"
on one hand AP is supposed to be about being low profileNo, it isn't. It's "about" organizing people to build power. The game gives you the tools to do that while keeping a low profile, and a lot of people assume they're meant to be playing the 26th July Movement, however, it is by no means the default assumption. If anything the assumption is that the PCs become popular public figures fairly quickly.clearly, it's not supposed to be the 26th July movement.
it's supposed to be a successful June Rebellion of 1832.
i.e. Les Miserables
"Do you hear the people sing?"
Would it be pedantic to say that there isn't really a 1:1 conversion from Earth history to Golarion?
Which is not to say that if you're a history buff that you can't make your Golarion like that. I'd love to play at that table, certainly, but I don't think it's reflective of most parties' experience.
Not every encounter has to be difficult. If the group has the proper resources then they may very well find certain foes far easier to face.
Take, for instance, the dwarf in the Saltworks. He's got a high armor class. If you have someone who can target touch AC (like a gunslinger or a caster with touch attacks) he's not a huge threat. But if you have primarily-stealthy types on a 15-point build, then he's going to dominate the fight (especially if he does take out the melee-type early on with a tanglefoot bag).
Or for that matter, Nox. If you have a caster and the right spells you can easily take away Nox's effectiveness and eliminate her threat. But if you have a primarily-melee or stealthy party, you're going to have a bit more trouble.
Now, rescuing Marquel can still be a challenge for 7th level characters if they don't have a primary caster. If they went primarily melee or stealthy types, they might have to sneak into the area and hope the dice aren't cruel to them.
And heaven forbid if their group doesn't believe in stealth but don't have primary casters.
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on one hand AP is supposed to be about being low profileNo, it isn't. It's "about" organizing people to build power. The game gives you the tools to do that while keeping a low profile, and a lot of people assume they're meant to be playing the 26th July Movement, however, it is by no means the default assumption. If anything the assumption is that the PCs become popular public figures fairly quickly.clearly, it's not supposed to be the 26th July movement.
it's supposed to be a successful June Rebellion of 1832.
i.e. Les Miserables
"Do you hear the people sing?"
Would it be pedantic to say that there isn't really a 1:1 conversion from Earth history to Golarion?
Which is not to say that if you're a history buff that you can't make your Golarion like that. I'd love to play at that table, certainly, but I don't think it's reflective of most parties' experience.
oh , not it's clearly not.
but i think with the flamboyant settings and side characters, if there ever were an AP made for a party of Bards & Musical Theater Majors, it would be Hell's Rebels.
on one hand AP is supposed to be about being low profileNo, it isn't. It's "about" organizing people to build power. The game gives you the tools to do that while keeping a low profile, and a lot of people assume they're meant to be playing the 26th July Movement, however, it is by no means the default assumption. If anything the assumption is that the PCs become popular public figures fairly quickly.clearly, it's not supposed to be the 26th July movement.
it's supposed to be a successful June Rebellion of 1832.
i.e. Les Miserables
"Do you hear the people sing?"
Would it be pedantic to say that there isn't really a 1:1 conversion from Earth history to Golarion?
Which is not to say that if you're a history buff that you can't make your Golarion like that. I'd love to play at that table, certainly, but I don't think it's reflective of most parties' experience.
oh , not it's clearly not.
but i think with the flamboyant settings and side characters, if there ever were an AP made for a party of Bards & Musical Theater Majors, it would be Hell's Rebels.
Very much agreed.
I'd love to see a bunch of music and theater majors either real play stream or podcast Hell's Rebels.
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on one hand AP is supposed to be about being low profileNo, it isn't. It's "about" organizing people to build power. The game gives you the tools to do that while keeping a low profile, and a lot of people assume they're meant to be playing the 26th July Movement, however, it is by no means the default assumption. If anything the assumption is that the PCs become popular public figures fairly quickly.clearly, it's not supposed to be the 26th July movement.
it's supposed to be a successful June Rebellion of 1832.
i.e. Les Miserables
"Do you hear the people sing?"
Would it be pedantic to say that there isn't really a 1:1 conversion from Earth history to Golarion?
Which is not to say that if you're a history buff that you can't make your Golarion like that. I'd love to play at that table, certainly, but I don't think it's reflective of most parties' experience.
oh , not it's clearly not.
but i think with the flamboyant settings and side characters, if there ever were an AP made for a party of Bards & Musical Theater Majors, it would be Hell's Rebels.
Very much agreed.
I'd love to see a bunch of music and theater majors either real play stream or podcast Hell's Rebels.
not to belabor the point, but the montage musical number of 'One Day More' is spot on to a tee to SONG OF SILVER and the attack on the Cathedral / Ringing of the Bells.
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not to belabor the point, but the montage musical number of 'One Day More' is spot on to a tee to SONG OF SILVER and the attack on the Cathedral / Ringing of the Bells.on one hand AP is supposed to be about being low profileNo, it isn't. It's "about" organizing people to build power. The game gives you the tools to do that while keeping a low profile, and a lot of people assume they're meant to be playing the 26th July Movement, however, it is by no means the default assumption. If anything the assumption is that the PCs become popular public figures fairly quickly.clearly, it's not supposed to be the 26th July movement.
it's supposed to be a successful June Rebellion of 1832.
i.e. Les Miserables
"Do you hear the people sing?"
Would it be pedantic to say that there isn't really a 1:1 conversion from Earth history to Golarion?
Which is not to say that if you're a history buff that you can't make your Golarion like that. I'd love to play at that table, certainly, but I don't think it's reflective of most parties' experience.
oh , not it's clearly not.
but i think with the flamboyant settings and side characters, if there ever were an AP made for a party of Bards & Musical Theater Majors, it would be Hell's Rebels.
Very much agreed.
I'd love to see a bunch of music and theater majors either real play stream or podcast Hell's Rebels.
No it isn't. The Song of Silver has been described as "haunting," while One Day More is more rousing. It can be inferred that the Song of Silver is in minor mode - One Day More is decidedly major. One Day More is an ensemble number. The Song of Silver is a solo aria.
No it isn't. The Song of Silver has been described as "haunting," while One Day More is more rousing. It can be inferred that the Song of Silver is in minor mode - One Day More is decidedly major. One Day More is an ensemble number. The Song of Silver is a solo aria.
Though, if you want it to be in your campaign, that's totally cool too. I'm not actually sure about my campaign actually, it may depend on whether my bard rejoins the campaign...
PS: while JJ was heavily involved in the AP and personally I tend to take his opinions as canon, technically if it isn't in the book then a forum post is just a suggestion. Albeit a suggestion from a talking dinosaur, who hopefully won't eat me.