Un_Monk Building Up Koan ki power and x2 Wisdom

[Halcyon_Janissary]

After reviewing the Un Monk Ki powers for my monk / pala, I discovered a bit of a hitch in the Building Up Koan power.

The power allows the monk to force themselves to make a will save. If successful they add their Wisdom Bonus as an Insight bonus to attack, ac, saves, and skill checks.

The problem is; the monk already adds wisdom to AC. And Will Saves (like everyone else). And there are the Wisdom based skills like perception and sense motive. Now, it's got big risks and only lasts a round, but that's not the biggest concern.

So, is this an exception to the double ability stacking rules, or is this ability much worse than it would have you expect?

[Derklord]

Halcyon_Janissary wrote:

So, is this an exception to the double ability stacking rules, or is this ability much worse than it would have you expect?

The AC bonuses do stack, as Building Up Koan's bonus is an insight bonus, while the normal one is untyped.

It's still an atrocious ability because of the chance to waste your turn...

[Halcyon_Janissary]

Derklord wrote:

Halcyon_Janissary wrote:

So, is this an exception to the double ability stacking rules, or is this ability much worse than it would have you expect?

The AC bonuses do stack, as Building Up Koan's bonus is an insight bonus, while the normal one is untyped.

It's still an atrocious ability because of the chance to waste your turn...

So since it's an insight bonus equal to your Wisdom, rather than an untyped bonus equal to Wisdom, it'll stack with whatever isn't also an insight bonus?

As for its effectiveness, my character has a +7 Wisdom, a will save of 24 and a monk level of 11; getting +7 to virtually everything for a 10% confusion chance for 1 ki (Ring of Ki Mastery) feels worth it in the right circumstances.

[Derklord]

The only reason two (untyped) wisdom boni to AC wouldn't stack is because this FAQ ruled that ability score boni always treat the ability score as the source, and thus the "Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source." rule kicks in.

How do you have a will save of +24 at 11th level? Or is that some high level multiclass character?

[Halcyon_Janissary]

Derklord wrote:

How do you have a will save of +24 at 11th level? Or is that some high level multiclass character?

Cool, thanks.

High level multi-class, Tortured Crusader Paladin.

[Derklord]

Ah, ok, that completely changes things. On a straight unMonk, the DC is just way too high to be worth the risk*, but a multiclass stagnates the DC while advansing both the will save (possibly with good progression), and the wisdom bonus.

*) The bad will save progression really hurts a lot.

[Halcyon_Janissary]

Derklord wrote:

Ah, ok, that completely changes things. On a straight unMonk, the DC is just way too high to be worth the risk*, but a multiclass stagnates the DC while advansing both the will save (possibly with good progression), and the wisdom bonus.

*) The bad will save progression really hurts a lot.

Yup, by circumventing these costs and having an already pumped wisdom it makes the ability really tempting. +7 to everything but damage for 1 swift action, 1 ki and confusion only on a critical failure? The bonus size + needing to come up with a new Koan every use makes this power go from bad to practically a no brainer.