Any way to cast / LOH with hands unquestionably full?


Advice


I've been tinkering around with the idea of an Oath of the People's Council Paladin with the Flagbearer feat (and, eventually, a Banner of the Scarlet Rose). Unfortunately handedness is a bit of an issue; due to the flag being a... flag, I can't do the normal buffoonery sword n' board paladins use of holding her sword in her shield hand and then moving it back to her "wielding" hand.

I thought there'd be some options related to using my sword as a divine focus and being able to perform somatic components that way, and while I did find one obscure 3rd party option for it there don't seem to be any Paizo options and it still doesn't solve the problem of Lay On Hands being unusable. Other than that one wondrous item that lets you drop and pick up weapons as a move action, are there any other potential options I've missed? Paizo is preferred but I'd like to be made aware of 3rd party options of they do exist.

Silver Crusade

Most flagbearer PCs I've GMd for carry a longspear and put the flag on that. It's both a good flagpole and an excellent weapon. You'll have to give up your shield. Note that a polearm provides quite a lot of defense, so trading out your shield for a reach weapon may actually upgrade your defense. Also, there are no problems at all with casting while carrying a two handed weapon. Other polearms work, too.

Here's a historical image from the Bayeuax Tapestry showing a flagbearer with the flag on a longspear.

Examples of primary battlefield weapons: Warbows, polearms, shield & 1-handed weapon, rifles

Examples of sidearms, which are secondary weapons: thrown weapons, most swords, buckler & 1-handed weapon, handguns

Thus, Longspear is to Sword as Rifle is to Pistol


My understanding of Flagbearer is that (unlike the cavalier's banner, which explicitly states you can be loose with how it's wielded) it needs a hand of its own and therefore cannot share with a weapon. Even if that works for the feat, it definitely does not work with the Banner of the Scarlet Rose.

Besides, the concept for this character is a Paladin of Iomedae so. I'd like to use a longsword if at all possible.


Does Banner of the Scarlet Rose work with Shield Brace? Anyway, any consecrated Weapon can be used as a divine focus/holy symbol.


What the banner works with is probably worthy of its own Rules Questions thread. Looking at it more closely, I think that, given that Shield Wall is given as an example of a feat you can use with the banner, the banner must be considered a shield for interaction purposes, as Shield Wall does nothing if you aren't actually carrying a shield and are simply given a shield bonus.

Of course now that I'm thinking about it more on my own I'm not actually sure if you're not allowed to attach the banner to a weapon... The wondrous item is the flag itself and doesn't include the pole in its description. Flavor text isn't rules text but it might be worth considering when the RAI is as vague as it is here.


Take a level in monk and poke them with your feet?


Since the banner provides a +2 shield bonus, can it be enchanted with shield bonus abilities, or even bonus points. Having it be a more effective shield might take care of the free hand issue if you use it as your actual shield. is that +2 shield bonus being a +2 base with no magical bonus, or +0 base with a +2 magical bonus.

Reading this I worry that I am losing my already limited communication skills.

Silver Crusade

This precise topic has come up in these forums many times. The RAW is slightly fuzzy. Shield & short spear would be an option, too, although casting then becomes problematic. If your GM even thinks to question your putting your flag on a pointy pole (unlikely) perhaps just point your GM to the bayeaux tapestry flagbearer, circa 1070 AD.

The RAW is not super-clear. There are multiple long threads arguing this precise topic with mind-numbing thoroughness. The conclusion was, "possible table variance but most GMs seem to think it's fine to put a flag on a pole, so long as everyone agrees it only gives a bonus if it's held in at least one hand."

Perhaps carry Iomedae's traditional longsword as a secondary weapon, since you intend to face grave danger? I imagine the Goddess of Tactics would approve of carrying weapons suitable for different tactical situations. Here's a google search of images associated with the word 'flagbearer'.

There's surely some 'workaround' to allow your PC to be a flagbearer with a shield. Many GM's ignore fussy details like needing a free hand to cast. The generally accepted solution seems to be a flag on a long pointy pole.


I think what the OP wanted was to get a Reliquary longsword to use as a holy symbol. For an extra 250gp a magic weapon, shield or armor can be treated as a holy symbol.

For some reason this information is super hard to find unless you know it exists.


I actually am aware of the reliquary weapon. The problem is that it doesn't actually DO anything... There's no tangible benefit to making your holy symbol something that takes up your hand when it works just as well for it to be a necklace or a tattoo. What I wanted was a way to make the hand that carries your holy symbol count as available for somatic components (IE, raise your sword in the air and call for the blessings of Iomedae) but bizarrely this doesn't seem to exist.


With a conductive longsword (or shield) you should be able to use LoH with your hands full. Sure the target will take a hit; if the sword's the conductive one you might want to make it merciful as well.

A clawhand shield lets you use your shield hand for somatic components. There's a feat, shielded mage IIRC which does the same. It should be possible to argue that this applies to paladins LoH as well as to spells.

With a dip you can literally juggle weapons (juggler bard). Throw your sword up in the air and catch it. Quick draw/quick stow is a more boring method of doing something similar, though it'd require you to use a standard action to LoH since your move and swift actions will be taken.

Silver Crusade

There are several magical items that allow you to have an extra equivalent limb you can use to hold objects. For example, the Monkey Belt: activate it as a swift action at the beginning of the fight, and every time you want to use LoH, just pass your flag to the tail as a free action, activate LoH and retrieve the flag as a free action. The greater version also gives you a bonus to Strength. Another example are Arms of the Marilith, which can be used exactly in the same way as the Monkey Belt.

A completely different strategy would be to entirely change your anatomy to accomodate extra arms. The Greater Hat of Disguise can be used to polymorph yourself into a Kasatha at will. As a result, you would grow an extra pair of arms you can use to wield stuff and activate LoH. Furthermore, it would give you an extra +2 Str size bonus.

On the cheap side, just tie your weapon with a weapon cord. Drop it as a free action, do the touching, retrieve it as a move action.

That being said, why not just attaching the flag to a longspear? There is already a precedent of a banner (of the Ancient Kings) that addresses a pole or a longspear as interchangeable.


Could you maybe use a Weapon Cord to tie the flag to one wrist, then if you need a free hand, drop the flag (free action)? It'll dangle, you can LoH or cast or whatever, then recover it a bit faster than normal (a move action). That allows drop-5'step-cast/LoH-recover_flag as a full round sequence.


... two levels of alchemist lets you grow an extra arm, but that doesn't really feel like The Look, somehow.


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I believe Paizo intended for the Flagbearer feat to work as the way avr described it. The magic item Banner of the Ancient Kings has this description:

"If the banner’s carrier possesses the Flagbearer feat, the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat. A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level for the purposes of determining the bonuses granted by his inspire courage bardic performance ability."

The flag item description mentions how it can be attached to poles or spears. The Flagbearer feat isn't clear, but it fails to mention these options.

It would make total sense for a paladin to have a long spear with a banner attached. It would be a free action to release one hand cast LoH and then another free action to grip the spear again.


Is this a home game? If so, ask your DM about the possibility of a Sashimono. Note that this is not a official piece of PF equipment.


The Banner of the Scarlet Rose qualifies for Shield Focus and Shielded Mage. That is the best option in my opinion.

Shielded Mage:
Prerequisite(s): Shield Focus, base attack bonus +3 or fighter level 1st.

Benefit(s): You reduce the arcane spell failure of any shield you use by 15% (to a minimum of 0%). Using a shield does not prevent you from completing somatic spell components with the hand wielding the shield.

Then you just stretch out your index finger, and touch the target of your Lay on Hands. Ding. Never loosing the grip on the banner.

If Shielded Mage allows you to do all that fancy Dr. Strange hand kung-fu with a shield, you can certainly LoH holding a towel.

Another, inarguable route is Shield Focus, Unhindering Shield, Dodge, and the Dueling Cape Deed feat.

Even if you don't have Panache to make use of the entangle feature, the Dueling Cape Deed allows you to wrap the banner around your arm and count as a buckler. And Unhindering Shield makes the hand carrying a buckler count as free for all intents and purposes.


pad300 wrote:
Is this a home game? If so, ask your DM about the possibility of a Sashimono. Note that this is not a official piece of PF equipment.

I always put my flags on a frame attached to my armor (to be reasonable, this should be at least medium armor). At least one wondrous item implies the existence of the mundane base object.

Many samurai and "hussar" cavalry minis have back-frame sashimono, or "wings", included in the piece.


Lykus57 wrote:
I believe Paizo intended for the Flagbearer feat to work as the way avr described it.

Not me. I never mentioned it, but I do agree.


What about using a Monkey Belt? The prehensile tail wouldn't be able to make the LoH for you, but it could help hold the Flag so you could have a free hand?

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