I have a few weeks to make a new character and the original idea I've come up with is a full-caster who either thinks too much of themselves or is actually as powerful as they claim to be. Possibly both alternatingly. I can't think of any special build for this myself and am currently planning on using a universalist Wizard to fill the part. Before I start filling out the sheet though I would appreciate anyone's suggestions in the matter. I am not saying I am set on a wizard. Any class, archetype, multiclass, and prestige class suggestions are welcome.
The simplified version of the characters motivation would be that they are reaching for the title of "greatest mage" whether it is in his own worldview, or in the eyes of the public. Depends on where the campaign goes. It could occur as actually great magical feats, great combat prowess or as tricks and illusions that give the impression of greatness. If this seems vague please ask for more details. Unfortunately I am not a wordsmith and don't know what more to add to convey what I mean at this time.
I am not expecting anyone to reply with a full build with detailed steps for every level. You can do so if you so wish but if you have even one suggestion whether it be where to allocate my skill ranks, how to set my ability scores, which class to use, which feat to take, which spell to pick; any suggestion is welcome.
GM only allows rules found in official Paizo books.
As far as classes go, Wizard definitely is the most obvious pick. It has the best spell list in the game, which puts it a notch ahead of most of the competition. Sorcerers and Arcanists share the same spell list, but are always one level behind so Wizard does fit best.
If you want to play a universalist wizard, make sure to use the Exploiter Archetype. Specialization is vastly preferable for a wizard, since the penalty for prepping opposition spells is so minor you can just eat the penalty and still come out ahead of a universalist. There are eight schools of magic but you only get 5-6 spell slots per level so it's not like it's even possible to prepare spells from every school of magic anyways. The Exploiter is really the only archetype that does the universalist well.
Aside from that, just pump your intelligence score as high as it can go and try to pick a well-varied lineup of spells at each level. Wizards are very easy to build, and the real difficulty is in prepping the right spell loadout for the following day. One good way to alleviate this is to leave slots open and just prep them on demand; there's even an arcane discovery wizards can take to speed up the preparation process.
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The obvious problem with trying to be the 'greatest' wizard is that a wizard one level higher is probably greater still. And there's always someone higher level. Which means IMO you need a certain amount of untruthfulness to make it not laughable.
Illusionists are better at deceiving than universalists, and leadership (or the instructor archetype) can provide people who back up your claims. You'll probably want to be good at the bluff skill and might want the clever wordplay trait for it.
Dasrak wrote: As far as classes go, Wizard definitely is the most obvious pick. It has the best spell list in the game, which puts it a notch ahead of most of the competition. Sorcerers and Arcanists share the same spell list, but are always one level behind so Wizard does fit best.
If you want to play a universalist wizard, make sure to use the Exploiter Archetype. Specialization is vastly preferable for a wizard, since the penalty for prepping opposition spells is so minor you can just eat the penalty and still come out ahead of a universalist. There are eight schools of magic but you only get 5-6 spell slots per level so it's not like it's even possible to prepare spells from every school of magic anyways. The Exploiter is really the only archetype that does the universalist well.
Aside from that, just pump your intelligence score as high as it can go and try to pick a well-varied lineup of spells at each level. Wizards are very easy to build, and the real difficulty is in prepping the right spell loadout for the following day. One good way to alleviate this is to leave slots open and just prep them on demand; there's even an arcane discovery wizards can take to speed up the preparation process.
Thanks for the feedback. I checked out the exploiter and it seemed good too but I think I will be choosing a school for my wizard after all. Don't know which one yet but I think as I flesh out this guys personality and background it'll be easier to choose.
The arcane discovery might be a big help since my character most likely wouldn't want to rely on pearls of power. At least publicly.
avr wrote: The obvious problem with trying to be the 'greatest' wizard is that a wizard one level higher is probably greater still. And there's always someone higher level. Which means IMO you need a certain amount of untruthfulness to make it not laughable.
Illusionists are better at deceiving than universalists, and leadership (or the instructor archetype) can provide people who back up your claims. You'll probably want to be good at the bluff skill and might want the clever wordplay trait for it.
Bluff will definitely be an essential choice if I end up going for the deceiver route. I'll probably avoid any kind of leadership role when it relates to NPC's though. Who needs sentient humanoids when I got god knows how many kinds of magical, ethreal, spongy, invisible, etc. servants I can conjure or give birth to from my brain on a whim.
Thanks for your feedback.
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Ah, to be 'the greatest'. There are 3 main paths to choose from to be the greatest. And one concept you need to adopt for the last 2.
The simplest path is to specialize. Be the greatest transmuter. Be the greatest ice wizard. Be the greatest summoner. This means focusing feats and allowing yourself to trade away versatility for specialization. Sorcerers tend to be very good specialists. Lots of feats dumped into a single school are expected, and even specializing in a single spell is a very good path to go with for this sort of limited greatness.
The second method is to try to be the man with all of the solutions. Universalist is very strong for this since you have no school weakness. Being equally good at all schools is a strength. Arcane Bond is kind of a default for this sort of build so you can pull any spell from your books at any time. This also means doing anything you can to acquire more spells for your books. Expect to spend money for spells. Expect to spend favors for spells. Expect to hoodwink the party into doing quests to obtain more spells.
The third method to become the greatest wizard is to become a crafting wizard. Spend your feats in crafting methods. Make magic items that impress the other players when you use them. Offer to make items that the others want. Spread your name as an Enchanter that can work miracles. Eventually you'll go entire combats relying on items, saving your spells for big threats. Avoid consumable items, you're looking to save your gold for big ticket items that will become a part of your legend.
And a concept that many players have a problem with is finesse. When a combat starts you shouldn't figure out what spell to cast first. You should gauge how your companions feel about the fight. If they are confident you should do something small to contribute, but conserve your strength. At low levels this means casting cantrips, using school abilities, and even using a crossbow. At higher levels that might mean using some random wand, or a 1st level spell. Of course if the party asks you to use spells like Haste its in your best interest to cooperate, but if you aren't asked to hold on to your best spells until the party seems nervous. When everybody is thinking 'this is going to be difficult' is when you can suddenly become the greatest.
Part of having finesse is letting other players be great at what they do, and stealing the spotlight only when things look bleak. Or when the party hits an obstacle that their skills won't get past. Always let others try before you use magic. If you can do it with skills instead of magic, do it. Magic should be a last resort, even for a wizard, unless it is from an unlimited source. Unlimited sources of magic should be used instead of mundane methods to emphasize that you are a magic user.
Meirril wrote: Ah, to be 'the greatest'. There are 3 main paths to choose from to be the greatest. And one concept you need to adopt for the last 2.
The simplest path is to specialize. Be the greatest transmuter. Be the greatest ice wizard. Be the greatest summoner. This means focusing feats and allowing yourself to trade away versatility for specialization. Sorcerers tend to be very good specialists. Lots of feats dumped into a single school are expected, and even specializing in a single spell is a very good path to go with for this sort of limited greatness.
The second method is to try to be the man with all of the solutions. Universalist is very strong for this since you have no school weakness. Being equally good at all schools is a strength. Arcane Bond is kind of a default for this sort of build so you can pull any spell from your books at any time. This also means doing anything you can to acquire more spells for your books. Expect to spend money for spells. Expect to spend favors for spells. Expect to hoodwink the party into doing quests to obtain more spells.
The third method to become the greatest wizard is to become a crafting wizard. Spend your feats in crafting methods. Make magic items that impress the other players when you use them. Offer to make items that the others want. Spread your name as an Enchanter that can work miracles. Eventually you'll go entire combats relying on items, saving your spells for big threats. Avoid consumable items, you're looking to save your gold for big ticket items that will become a part of your legend.
And a concept that many players have a problem with is finesse. When a combat starts you shouldn't figure out what spell to cast first. You should gauge how your companions feel about the fight. If they are confident you should do something small to contribute, but conserve your strength. At low levels this means casting cantrips, using school abilities, and even using a crossbow. At higher levels that might mean using some random wand, or a 1st level spell. Of...
Your reply really gave me a lot to think about.
With your first two options of specialization and universality I am leaning towards the latter, but I am now also considering specialising in some single branch of magic, spell type or spell. Naturally I wouldn't go too far as to limit myself as a kineticist or a shifter would but the idea does intrigue me. Perhaps another caster in a different game.
Your third suggestion is also wonderful and I emphasize that all of this is helpful but I would probably go for this route if my character wasn't so likely to be more self serving than serving. Of course they won't be some narcissistic dung ball who back stabs party members for a foot massage but in this case the feats of greatness I am craving would be more "active."
Your last comment on how to handle challenges in regards to your party members was invaluable. I have heard a few handful of times, every day since the inception of Pathfinder, that full-casters are OP from my friends. What you said is sort of obvious but at the same time I had to observe those words to truly grasp this concept. I'll definitely take this advice to heart and try to implement it as best I can.
Thank you for your feedback.
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The arcanist with the occultist archetype is my choice, if you want to be a summoning type with great versatility. Your summoning access is basically as early as the wizard while being better in speed and duration. And you have access to a lot of other good exploits.
I had a similar idea for a mage and found that fluff wise the arcanist made the most sense. The wizard gets their magic through academic study and the sorcerer through the raw talent of their bloodline; the arcanist combines both thus giving them the superior understanding of the inner workings of the magical arts. Wizards, for all their knowledge just don't have that intuitive firsthand experience of magic coursing through their veins; no matter how much talent a sorcerer might have, ultimately they lack the intellectual and academic rigour to fully comprehend the arcane power they wield. No matter what power a wizard or sorcerer might achieve they'll never truly know magic, not in the way that an arcanist does.
You could try a spell sage. They are an archtype that can cast spells from other classes spell lists. To do so they must use 2 spell slots and spend 1 extra round per spell level casting the spell. The spell may be any spell on the Bard, Cleric, and Druid spell list. For a few times per day, they are effectively spontaneous spell casters with a very large list of spells known.
http://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Wizard%20Spell%20Sage
Decimus Drake wrote: I had a similar idea for a mage and found that fluff wise the arcanist made the most sense. The wizard gets their magic through academic study and the sorcerer through the raw talent of their bloodline; the arcanist combines both thus giving them the superior understanding of the inner workings of the magical arts. Wizards, for all their knowledge just don't have that intuitive firsthand experience of magic coursing through their veins; no matter how much talent a sorcerer might have, ultimately they lack the intellectual and academic rigour to fully comprehend the arcane power they wield. No matter what power a wizard or sorcerer might achieve they'll never truly know magic, not in the way that an arcanist does. I agree in terms of lore your statement makes perefect sense but when it comes to the metagame I don't know if it applies. I will be sure to read more into the Arcanist before I fill my sheet though.
Thank you for your feedback.
OmniMage wrote: You could try a spell sage. They are an archtype that can cast spells from other classes spell lists. To do so they must use 2 spell slots and spend 1 extra round per spell level casting the spell. The spell may be any spell on the Bard, Cleric, and Druid spell list. For a few times per day, they are effectively spontaneous spell casters with a very large list of spells known.
http://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Wizard%20Spell%20Sage
Having taken a quick peek at your link a spell sage seems a very apt choice for a utility caster. Honestly I don't really feel this archetype would fit what I'm going for but that might change depending. Like I said in my original post I don't know how exactly to put into words what I'm going for since you can be a "great mage" in many ways and from many perspectives.
Still I appreciate your feedback. Thank you.
Melkiador wrote: The arcanist with the occultist archetype is my choice, if you want to be a summoning type with great versatility. Your summoning access is basically as early as the wizard while being better in speed and duration. And you have access to a lot of other good exploits. This is a great archetype that I will definitely be using at some point even if not this time. I have been looking for a way to create a "master summoner" in the past and completely missed the Arcanist Occultist then. Will certainly take it into consideration when I write the character down.
Thank you for your feedback.
Onionbolt, a fairly common meaning of 'Thank you for your feedback.' is 'I have heard and dismissed what you have to say. Please shut up now.' That's not what you mean here is it?
avr wrote: Onionbolt, a fairly common meaning of 'Thank you for your feedback.' is 'I have heard and dismissed what you have to say. Please shut up now.' That's not what you mean here is it? Not at all. I don't know why you would assume that at all and disagree that it is a "common meaning" for it.
Sarcasm or the like is hard to convey and interpret in text so I assume people mean what they say and expect them to understand the same from what I say.
EDIT: Then again humour is among those things that are hard to interpret and after rereading how I responded to your first message I can see how you might have viewed it as dismissive. I assure you my intention was to be humourous but not at your expense.
Personally I wouldn't try to go for "The Greatest" in purely meta/mechanical terms unless your GM has agreed to feature no arcane spell casters that are more powerful than you. Otherwise what you're trying to do is pretty much impossible.
I suggest a divination specialist wizard. You can always act in surprise rounds and add half your level to initiative, which is incredibly useful.
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Decimus Drake wrote: Personally I wouldn't try to go for "The Greatest" in purely meta/mechanical terms unless your GM has agreed to feature no arcane spell casters that are more powerful than you. Otherwise what you're trying to do is pretty much impossible. I strongly disagree. Being 'The Greatest' is about attitude rather than power. The character strives to be acknowledged as the greatest. Pride can be a strong character trait.
Being 'the greatest' isn't about game mechanics so much as a role playing goal, which I think is more important for an enjoyable game than the efficient use (or abuse) of a game mechanic.
Even if the BBG is a higher level caster, that doesn't mean the player can't approach that being thinking "You are more experienced than I, but I am superior to you. I will defeat you and prove that I am greater than you." After all, every BBG the party faces is more powerful than each individual in the party. That shouldn't stop the party from thinking they will win, or that they shouldn't fight against them. That is one of the core tenets of Pathfinder.
Meirril wrote: Decimus Drake wrote: Personally I wouldn't try to go for "The Greatest" in purely meta/mechanical terms unless your GM has agreed to feature no arcane spell casters that are more powerful than you. Otherwise what you're trying to do is pretty much impossible. I strongly disagree. Being 'The Greatest' is about attitude rather than power. The character strives to be acknowledged as the greatest. Pride can be a strong character trait.
Then the character can be anything he wants, trapped in a Microcosm where he mistakenly thinks he matters, but in reality is just a chump surrounded by make believe.
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Xenocrat wrote: Then the character can be anything he wants, trapped in a Microcosm where he mistakenly thinks he matters, but in reality is just a chump surrounded by make believe. This comment is great, because it can either apply to:
A) The character, being delusional
B) All characters, from a meta perspective
C) All roleplayers, as that's quite literally the definition of what we're doing
D) All humans, from a nihilistic point of view
E) All of the above
I'm going to throw in an alternate build.
Razmerian priest half-elf with paragon surge, ring of spell knowledge, Versatile Spontaneity, Mnemonic Vestment.
This will give you access to divine spells through umd, eventually casting them as if you knew them. You have multiple ways to "prepare" spell. Doing so faster then a wizard using your ring. You will have the charisma to successfully lie about it.
And paragon surge will allow you to buff grabbing any spell or metamagic feat you need for a given situation.
The greatest mistake wizards make is to think they can change the world.
The greatest mistake the gods make is to let a few of them get away with it.
Xenocrat wrote: Meirril wrote: Decimus Drake wrote: Personally I wouldn't try to go for "The Greatest" in purely meta/mechanical terms unless your GM has agreed to feature no arcane spell casters that are more powerful than you. Otherwise what you're trying to do is pretty much impossible. I strongly disagree. Being 'The Greatest' is about attitude rather than power. The character strives to be acknowledged as the greatest. Pride can be a strong character trait.
Then the character can be anything he wants, trapped in a Microcosm where he mistakenly thinks he matters, but in reality is just a chump surrounded by make believe. Technically speaking, every Pathfinder game starts with the players surrounded by an untold number of villagers that are more competent than they are. Every town mayor and his guard are higher level and could certainly wipe out a 1st level party. Even at 20th level there will be NPCs that are not enemies and are more powerful than the PCs if you go to look for them in all of Galorian.
And any GM that lets the players depend on these more powerful beings to solve all of the adventure's problems is letting the players get away from how Pathfinder is intended to be played. Any GM that regularly drags in NPCs to show up the PCs is also going against that intent. Pathfinder is a shared story about the rise of a party of adventurers from humble beginnings to an epic ending. While it is fine to introduce rivals, constantly sticking in more powerful NPCs to show that they don't matter is anathema to the enjoyment of the game. Any GM that does this isn't trying to entertain the party, they are amusing themselves at the expense of the players.
Meirril wrote: Decimus Drake wrote: Personally I wouldn't try to go for "The Greatest" in purely meta/mechanical terms unless your GM has agreed to feature no arcane spell casters that are more powerful than you. Otherwise what you're trying to do is pretty much impossible. I strongly disagree. Being 'The Greatest' is about attitude rather than power. The character strives to be acknowledged as the greatest. Pride can be a strong character trait.
Being 'the greatest' isn't about game mechanics so much as a role playing goal, which I think is more important for an enjoyable game than the efficient use (or abuse) of a game mechanic.
Even if the BBG is a higher level caster, that doesn't mean the player can't approach that being thinking "You are more experienced than I, but I am superior to you. I will defeat you and prove that I am greater than you." After all, every BBG the party faces is more powerful than each individual in the party. That shouldn't stop the party from thinking they will win, or that they shouldn't fight against them. That is one of the core tenets of Pathfinder. Uh I'm not sure what you're strongly disagreeing with? What your saying is exactly my position: I wouldn't try to go for "The Greatest" in regards to being mechanically the strongest mage. Go for being "The Greatest" in attitude. I can only assume you misread what I wrote.
I'm just going to go ahead and give some suggestions that might not be what you're looking for, but they are funny to play.
Zezylryck from Krod Mandoon and the Flaming Sword of Fire. This is a character who pretends to be a mage but in reality isn't, or has very limited spellcasting ability. The Counterfeit Mage archetype for the Rogue would be a good choice. Consider not telling your party that you're not actually playing a mage.
Xurtr, the strongest mage in the world. This is a character that I played in a one shot adventure. He was a Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 1/Barbarian 1. His spell casting class doesn't really matter, as long as he can cast enlarge person on himself. Being able to manifest Expansion would be better, especially if you can do it by expending your psionic focus. If your DM allows Spheres of Power, picking up the Alteration Sphere and the Size Change talent would be a good option. 1 level of SoP Shifter would be enough for that and give you access to quick transformation, allowing you to change size with a move action.
Xurtr is ofcourse a mage who is also physically strong. By combining his rage with his increased size he becomes even stronger.
If you want truly, exceptionally, spectacularly broken, I recommend Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle.
Elf Divinations Wizard hands down. You almost always go first (or very close to first), can always act in a Surprise Round, and you get 1 reroll every round from Prescience. Elf FCB is +1/2 uses of Prescience per day, and by level 20 you could have over 20 rounds of Prescience. And, you're a wizard.
Sorry for not responding to every message. Life happens.
The campaign has started and I've made a character I am satisfied with atm, thanks to some of your suggestions. Most of the builds and advice I couldn't use now I will keep in my notes and use in later builds if possible.
Thank you for all your suggestions.
You want everyone to think you are the best?
Leadership and a rogue cohort with Rumormonger.
Nothing else required.
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