So I always loved the idea of the reach cleric, but when I tried it I really missed skills. I've tried making a reach shaman, but it kept coming up short (too many eggs in the basket.) With family it's been hard to keep up and I'm lucky to play once a month (if lucky 2x) Anyone have any caster reach build that worked out well? Would like 4+ int min.
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I've done several all-caster reach builds that worked out really well, but none had high INT and none were skilled. I usually leave skill-monkey stuff to the inevitable skill-monkey PC. If one decides to play a low-skill PC, such as a reach-cleric, best option is to not even try to cover skills. For example, with a reach cleric in particular, you'll be lucky to max out even your two most important skills, PERCEPTION and ACROBATICS.
If you really like playing a skillful PC, as opposed to a combat-optimized PC, then do that!
I'll point out the general approach of the reach cleric works with any build capable of wielding a reach weapon. The basic principle is [/i]do your own stuff on your own turn[/i] then inflict melee damage during GM's turn. If you want a skilled reach build perhaps try an Inquisitor.
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Have you considered getting a figment sage familair to help with skills.
What do you want to do in game with reach cleric?
Things take help animal companion with outflank and/or paired oppertunist.
Triping helps accuracy.
Longspear, flagbearer, evangelist, divine favor has amazing accuracy.
There are lots of options it just depends on what you want to get out of the build.
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This reach shaman has worked out well for me so far:
Male human (Varisian) shaman 12 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 35)
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 24 (+12 armor, +2 deflection, +1 Dex; +2 deflection bonus vs. evil)
hp 104 (12d8+41)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +16; +2 resistance vs. evil
Resist fire 10
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft. (30 ft. in armor)
Melee +1 corrosive shock cold iron longspear +17/+9 (1d8+21/×3 plus 1d6 electricity and 1d6 acid) or
. . +1 heavy mace +13/+8 (1d8+13) or
. . dagger +12/+7 (1d4+12/19-20)
Ranged light crossbow +10 (1d8/19-20)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with +1 corrosive shock cold iron longspear)
Special Attacks hexes (cinder dance, flame curse, gaze of flames, healing[APG], secret), wandering hex (battle master)
Shaman Spells Prepared (CL 12th; concentration +16)
. . 6th—mass cure moderate wounds, wall of stone; mass bull's strength[S] or fire seeds[S]
. . 5th—mass cure light wounds, overland flight, true seeing; righteous might[S] or summon monster V (fire elementals only)[S]
. . 4th—blessing of fervor[APG] (DC 18), divine power, freedom of movement, greater magic weapon; wall of fire[S] or wall of fire[S]
. . 3rd—clairaudience/clairvoyance, dispel magic, magic circle against evil, sleet storm, stinking cloud (DC 17); fireball[S] (DC 17) or magic vestment[S]
. . 2nd—barkskin (2), calm emotions (2, DC 16), silence (DC 16); fog cloud[S] or resist energy[S]
. . 1st—bless, cure light wounds, entangle (DC 15), liberating command[UC], remove fear; burning hands[S] (DC 15) or enlarge person[S] (DC 15)
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, guidance, light
. . S spirit magic spell; Spirit Flame Wandering Spirit Battle
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +12; CMD 28
Feats Acrobatic Steps, Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Furious Focus[APG], Heavy Armor Proficiency, Improved Initiative, Nimble Moves, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Toughness, Weapon Focus (longspear), Weapon Specialization (longspear)
Traits frontier healer, resilient
Skills Bluff +2, Craft (blacksmith) +11, Diplomacy +17, Disguise +2, Fly +5, Handle Animal +13, Heal +11, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (geography) +1, Knowledge (nature) +16, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Linguistics +4, Perception +20, Profession (soldier) +10, Sense Motive +6, Spellcraft +12, Survival +13
Languages Common, Dwarven, Goblin, Ignan, Sylvan, Varisian
SQ battle spirit, enemies’ bane, fiery soul, spirit animal (fox named Pele), touch of flame
Combat Gear cold iron crossbow bolts (20), dust of appearance, elixir of hiding (2), pearl of power (1st level), pearl of power (2nd level), pearl of power (3rd level), potion of bear's endurance, potion of blur, potion of cure moderate wounds (4), potion of cure moderate wounds (4), potion of cure serious wounds (3), potion of heroism, potion of neutralize poison, potion of protection from chaos, potion of remove fear, potion of shield of faith, scroll of false life, scroll of magic stone, scroll of raise dead, scroll of restoration (2), scroll of restoration, silver crossbow bolts (10), wand of cure light wounds (13 charges), wand of cure light wounds (50 charges), wand of fireball (14 charges), wand of hold person (9 charges), wand of produce flame (10 charges), alchemist's fire (2), healer's kit, smokestick; Other Gear +3 full plate, mithral chain shirt, +1 corrosive shock cold iron longspear, +1 heavy mace, crossbow bolts (10), dagger, light crossbow, belt of giant strength +2, circlet of persuasion, cloak of resistance +4, headband of inspired wisdom +4, incense of meditation, ring of protection +2, unguent of timelessness, aegis of recovery (worth 1,500 gp), backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, candle (10), climber's kit, cold weather outfit, flint and steel, hemp rope (50 ft.), mess kit (worth 0.1 gp, 1 lb), pot, soap, spell component pouch, trail rations (5), waterskin, wooden holy symbol of Desna, 4,406 gp
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Special Abilities
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Battle Master (Ex) +1 attack of opportunity each rd (stacks with combat reflexes).
Battle Spirit +2 (2 rounds/day) (Su) As a standard action, allies in 30 ft gain bonus to attack and damage.
Combat Reflexes (2 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Enemies’ Bane (2/day) (Su) As a swift action, grant one weapon bane ability of choice for 1 min. Stacks with normal bane.
Energy Resistance, Fire (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Familiar Bonus: +2 to Reflex saves You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Fiery Soul (12d4 fire damage, 3/day) (Su) As a standard action every d4 rds, breath fire in 15-ft cone (Ref half).
Flame Curse (Su) Foe in 30 ft becomes vulnerable to fire for 2 rds.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gaze of Flames (Clairvoyance 120 ft., 12 rounds/day) (Su) See through fire, fog, and smoke, or use a flame within 120 ft for clairvoyance.
Healing (2d8+10) (Su) Heal touched creature, but each target can only benefit once per 24 hrs.
Nimble Moves (20 ft/rd) Move through the listed amount of difficult terrain each rd as if it were normal terrain.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quicken Spell Cast a spell as a swift action. +4 Levels.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with animals similar to itself.
Speak with Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Spirit Animal (spirit animal (fox named Pele)) If spirit animal is slain, cannot use spirit magic or prepare new spells.
Touch of Flame (2/day) (Su) As a standard action, melee touch deals fire dam. Wielded weapons are flaming.
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Note: We are using Background Skills.
With Greater Magic Weapon, Quickened Divine Favor and Enemies Bane, he attacks for +25/+17 to hit, 1d8 + 2d6 + 26 Damage + 1d6 acid+ 1d6 electrical + 1d6 fire (ave. 48 per hit).
With Barkskin, AC is 30 (OK, but not great).
The spirit animal choice isn't optimal (bonus to Ref instead of Fort), but I liked the flavor.
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I think you could build a pretty good reach bard just using the CRB.
@Magda shucks I was hoping you of all people would have a idea :) Don't get me wrong I liked the reach cleric but as soon as combat was done I was bored. I'm not trying to be a rogue but I would like a couple options so I can assist the party.
@grandlounge Yeah I was excited to see the sage familiar and was hoping to use it with the cleric...but really hard to do. So next was the shaman since they have a built in one :) The reach cleric was cool partly due to sacred summons and I loved how it addressed my issue with a cleric (aka they seemed combat oriented and if you planned that later on you were too busy casting spells) I saw a post that Magda had showing a evangelist with a animal companion...seemed scary good...just wish there were some skills.
@PCScipio Seems pretty solid, need to look through it some more but some good ideas there...do you miss not having a higher cha though?
@Dragonborn3 Honestly the oracle is really cool but For some reason it never clicks maybe it is because of the cha based.
I've been tinkering with a witch doctor shaman, mainly life and then lore as my wandering spirit. I would probably go with selective channel, combat reflexes, power attack and fateful channel for feats in the first 5 levels. Biggest problem is I can't get the stats to work (pfs rules)
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Familiar hard? Take the separatist archetype eagle, from, crocodile, etc. Have your other be the animal domain that it appropriate.
The problem with all of the 'get x stat to knowledge checks' is that they don't get enough skill ranks to be a skill monkey.
For example a separatist cleric with
S16 D14 C14 I14 W14 C8 (dual talented)
Has 4 skill points + 2 familiar (the familiar gets +8 to one or more from getting evolutions eagle domain familiar with starting perception of +20 something if I remember correctly).
Battle shamans like PCScipio's are great and keep getting better when bane come online (speaker for the past plays nicely as well but no familiar)
Melee Shaman stats can be really on 20pts if you can't dump CHA
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@PCScipio Seems pretty solid, need to look through it some more but some good ideas there...do you miss not having a higher cha though?
Would it be nice to have higher cha? Sure, but I don't like the potential trade-offs. The only possibility that I can see would be to swap int and cha, but I wanted the extra skill point. Even though I have only an 8 cha, I'm still buying max ranks of Diplomacy.
@Grandlounge Yeah what I mean by hard is giving up say evangelist to go with separatist. Kinda wondering if there is any way to manage Eldritch Heritage and go arcane...I think that would give me a familiar at -2 lvl. I would want it by lvl 7 but considering how many feats I would need it isnt too bad...since a sage familiar really doesnt help the skills until 5. Sorry typing and thinking at the same time.
@PCScipio mainly wondering about the loss of a bane since it falls on cha.
So For a shaman I might be able to do a spread of 15 str (+2 was added) 12 dex, 12 con, 13 int, 14 wis and 14 cha.. that would be a bit of a stretch though. For feats I could always go iron will (or trait House of green mothers pupil) then familiar bond or go with skill focus knowledge and eldritch heritage: arcane
Will second reach Shaman. Buying a Perfectionist Shavtoosh, a modified long spear for unarmed strike, an Opalescent White Pyramid (Normal) Ioun Stone ioun stone and wayfinder for Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with a tri-pointed double edged sword (fighter monk weapon group w/ reach & d10 x3 crit) or a Kyoketsu shoge (depending on how your GM intrepts it's reach/threat).
allows you to take Hex Strike and Asectic Style
So you can hit someone with your weapon on your turn and swift action deliver a hex to them - and threaten a bunch of squares when it isn't your turn.
Enlarge Person is your friend - even if it costs you dex and therefore reduces the effect of Combat Reflexes.
The trick of the reach cleric build is that you have good spells and decent combat abilities, so on your turn you cast a spell and on their turn they have to either let you keep doing what you are doing or impale themselves on your weapon to close with you.
In order to do that, you have to have powerful spells, which pretty much means 9-level casting and good enough combat abilities (BaB, HP and AC) to make the reach matter be effective being in the middle of combat.
Obviously the cleric is pretty perfect for this, having a strong spell list and good combat abilities. Shaman seems like it would be a decent secondary choice, although their spell list is generally weaker but they can make up for that in various ways. I don't see any reason the combination wouldn't work out, although I wouldn't expect it to be quite as effective as a reach cleric.
Another option might be wizard/fighter/eldritch knight. You are going to have to wait a bit for it to come online, probably playing like a regular wizard for several levels, but I think it could be effective. Obviously it would be 2+int skill points, but with INT your casting stat you should have enough to make it matter.
With the human favored class bonus for shaman you just steal the spells you like off the cleric list and go to town :)
When you factor in spirit spells, hexes and the Human favored class bonus, I don't find the Shaman spell list that weak.
Hence why I said you can make up for it in various ways.
Yeah the shaman list makes up for it. I was gonna go witch doctor with life and then lore but worried it is stretching my stats.. if i shore up the stats with feats.. i fall short.. any ideas?
Another option is go with the evangelist pick up the trait house of greenmother's pupil...so I could go at level 1 with lingering performance and reflexes..power attack at 3 and familiar bond at 5 (I would walk into the sage familiar able to tell me knowledge stuff) probably feather domain. So he would rough in the beginning but by level 5 he would get a good boost. Level 7 I could get sacred summons
So I always loved the idea of the reach cleric, but when I tried it I really missed skills. I've tried making a reach shaman, but it kept coming up short (too many eggs in the basket.) With family it's been hard to keep up and I'm lucky to play once a month (if lucky 2x) Anyone have any caster reach build that worked out well? Would like 4+ int min.
Have you considered the Herald Caller or Roaming Exorcist cleric archetypes? They both have 4+Int skills. Both lose 1 Domain and Medium Armor and Shield proficiency, but gain abilities that seem worth the loss to me.
Yeah I was really leaning towards the herald caller but the biggest catch for me is the full round summons. Sacred summons only works on a handful so probably better to use it more as a tool.
Yeah I was really leaning towards the herald caller but the biggest catch for me is the full round summons. Sacred summons only works on a handful so probably better to use it more as a tool.
Vice versa. Your handful of sacred summons options are your bread and butter in combat, the ones which require a round to summon are special-purpose tools.
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My reach cleric (evangelist) does not have many skills, but I have managed to use magic items and spells to buff them. Even so, I am not a DPR guy, but I do help control the battlefield by my reach weapon. In combat, my spells were usually used to help alies and buff in combat. I am also often the "flanking" guy since I can dimension hop into position. Combined with my inspiration, I made the entire party far more effective than if I just did DPR. Outside of combat, I leave open slots for on-the-fly spell selection for whatever is needed in the dungeon. For my own fun, I am the magic crafter of the party, and I also make constructs.
Not having much skill does not prevent you from contributing out of combat. Spells and magic items can help a lot here. (Check out Tears to Wine for skill buffing.) Guidance and Aid Another help others with their skills.
/cevah
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My evangelist has one level of cross blooded sorcerer to boost his enchantment casting. This also gives him a bunch more ands and scrolls he can use to help the party. I often take adopted helpful for such characters and carry abunch of pathfinder chronicles.
"Hey I have some useful pages bookmarked" here is a +6 is still very useful.
With the animal domain and flag bearer. I set up a flank for +4 (With mending), flag bearer, inspire, and a buff spell. Then my animal grapples. Everybody gets to play a min maxed character when that PC is at the table.
Wow some good ideas. My paranoia is with pfs sometimes you get to the table and nobody has the skills, hence why i like having options. I forgot about helpful.. now how to get more traits :p Tears to wine was under my radar.
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This is what the Evangelist (PRESTIGE CLASS, not archetype) is for. You only lose 1 level compared to a single class character, but in turn you get 6+Int skill points per level, lots of new class skills (say, Perception?), plus a couple of additional class skills, bonuses on untrained skills later on, and Deific Obedience, which usually adds a bunch of useful abilities.
With Favored Prestige Class you can get back the skill point per level you would get as FCB if you had stayed on your base class. Both Evangelist and Favored Prestige Class are PFS-legal. In a home game, you could also pick Prestigious Spellcaster, which gives you back the lost caster level/spell progression. However this is hardly necessary.
If you really like reach Clerics and you just would like to get some extra skills, this is your best option in my opinion.
Herald Caller IMO....
Become a better summoner as a cleric, 4+ INT skill points, frees up some feats to spend on extra skill points if you really must, keeps full casting and decent Will and Fort saves..... all for the loss of a couple of AC and a domain.
A pretty decent trade off IMO
@Greywarden so even domain abilities still progress?
@Grandlounge Stinks about tears to wine really thought that would've helped
@Doc Roc Not knocking the summons just not sure if it is worth it.
Indeed, the Evangelist advances all class features for 9/10 of the levels of the PrC (except for saves, HP, BAB, etc.)
In a home game, you could also pick Prestigious Spellcaster, which gives you back the lost caster level/spell progression. However this is hardly necessary.I was under the impression that Prestigious Spellcaster RAW did not work with Evangelist, since "The Prestigious Spellcaster feat does not have any effect if your favored prestige class does not have the spells per day class feature"
I believe that's why "in a home game" was mentioned. By RAW prestigious spellcaster does not do anything for the Evangelist, but this is more just an issue with the wording than a deliberate cost. Most GMs who aren't bound by strict adherence to the letter of the law will probably make it work if you ask nicely. Like it's clear to me how "Aligned Class" is just shorthand for a bunch of different class features including "spells/day", so advancing just one of those for an extra level is easy to figure out.
this is more just an issue with the wording than a deliberate cost.
How do you know? Seems more like deliberate balancing to me, because otherwise, you would progress almost your entire character, something that PF prestige classes deliberately avoid.
How do you know? Seems more like deliberate balancing to me, because otherwise, you would progress almost your entire character, something that PF prestige classes deliberately avoid.
Well, my ruling would be "prestigious spellcaster gives back the level of lost spell progression, but nothing else" for an evangelist. If "progressing spells" is all we care about, then there are a bunch of PRCs which will give you full spell progression (possibly requiring prestigious spellcaster) anyway.
Since if "a level of spellcasting costs 2 feats" works for an Eldritch Knight it's probably a fair cost for anybody else.
I got what you mean, but at that point, Evangelist advanced spells at full level, FCB at full progression, and everything else one level delayed, for the cost of three feats. With a good deity, I think the gain is just too much.
Edit: You do weaker your saves, but gain 6 skills/level, and possible better BAB progression.
Way I see it is that "favored prestige class" is already kind of a tax (it's worse than toughness or cunning, which are already not strong choices) and people who care deeply about maintaining spell progression do not tend to be swimming in feats. So spending 3 feats on deific obedience, favored prc, and prestigious spellcaster is going to eat a huge portion of your feats.