I think most people will agree that ability scores as ability modifiers are redundant and provide an unnecessary layer of complicating.
And according to Jason "Ability scores are not going anywhere at the current time." They have legacy.
So... what about removing ability modifiers?
Sure, all the math will need redone, but what do people think of just using the abilty score directly?
Something like...
Reflex = 17 (dex) + 16 (level) + 3 (proficiency).
Attack = 15 (str) + 5 (level) + 2 (proficiency).
Etc...
The upside is we get rid of a level of complication. The downside is we have big numbers.
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Adding my constitution to my HP every level sounds good, but with everybody adding their strength to their damage combat is going to get awfully deadly awfully fast.
Adding my constitution to my HP every level sounds good, but with everybody adding their strength to their damage combat is going to get awfully deadly awfully fast.
Removing Str from damage would simplify things even more. It would still improve damage with hits and crits.
Probably remove adding Con to you HP at evey level as well. Maybe something like healing gives you Con HP to compensate. Or maybe just more Fortitude saves.
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Yeah, redoing all the math seems a lot harder than just continuing to use the modifiers we are all used to. Especially when you consider the bestiary doesn't even list scores.
What *could* work is to change ability scores to be 10 + current ability modifier. So current 18 -> +4 modifier -> revised 14. But honestly I don't see much of a point.
How would bulk even work? People can't figure out what various things weigh as is. How many short swords could you carry in this new system?
How would bulk even work? People can't figure out what various things weigh as is. How many short swords could you carry in this new system?
14 Str = carry 14 Bulk.
How would bulk even work? People can't figure out what various things weigh as is. How many short swords could you carry in this new system?14 Str = carry 14 Bulk.
So are we cool with just doubling carrying capacity across the board, or are you going to also double the bulk of all items to achieve the same effect?
Double all bulk except the snare kit.
Jokes aside, pre-3.0 stats worked much differently, perhaps we can grab some ideas from there? Stats scale linearly, bonuses scale on a curve. Although it still screws the math, the stat can be used for different purposes using different formulas.
I think most people will agree that ability scores as ability modifiers are redundant and provide an unnecessary layer of complicating.
And according to Jason "Ability scores are not going anywhere at the current time." They have legacy.
So... what about removing ability modifiers?
Sure, all the math will need redone, but what do people think of just using the abilty score directly?
Something like...
Reflex = 17 (dex) + 16 (level) + 3 (proficiency).
Attack = 15 (str) + 5 (level) + 2 (proficiency).
Etc...The upside is we get rid of a level of complication. The downside is we have big numbers.
The ability score isn't really needed from a purely mechanical perspective, but as a player/DM I like to know the scores of the characters ___. It helps immersion.
The math would be really far off if you just used the RAW number so that's not a good idea. One thing PF2 seems to be aiming for is less swinginess, and bigger number introduce more of that.
In addition it's not like having both is causing any problems. No, I'm not talking about corner cases. If we include them we have to revamp every rule since even simple things such as "weapon focus" from PF1 have had people get them wrong.
So are we cool with just doubling carrying capacity across the board, or are you going to also double the bulk of all items to achieve the same effect?How would bulk even work? People can't figure out what various things weigh as is. How many short swords could you carry in this new system?14 Str = carry 14 Bulk.
doubling the bulk value.
I'm not trying to change any balance, though obviously changing the base numbers will require all of it to be reconsidered (and I still haven't thought of a good thing for Con).
I'm just trying to remove a few numbers off of everyone's character sheet.
I understand that, but the issue here isn’t moving numbers around, it’s altering the math to accomodate an extra +4/+7 numerical variation. How do you keep things working when someone’s attack value moves to +0/+5 at first level to +9/+19? Just adding +8 to the DC isn’t enough.
I feel like the spirit of the thread is: if scores are here to stay we can get rid of modifiers. But I'm pretty sure what Jason meant was that ability scores and modifiers are a package deal. If we could get rid of one, it would obviously be the scores, not the modifiers.
So OP: if your goal is to house rule the sheet to make it less crowded, get rid of ability scores and just figure out a way to create diminishing returns past +4 on the boosts. Anything else isn't worth it.
If your goal is to try and float this idea so that Paizo will get rid of modifiers and keep scores, then it is moot because they aren't doing that. If they were going to do anything, it would be what I outlined above.
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I feel like the spirit of the thread is change for the sake of change.
I can't see a design intent, a benefit, or a point.
Keeping things just because of legacy might be wrong, but throwing them in the bin for the same reason isn't smart either.
Sorry guys. I'm out.
This isn't a dig just I don't understand. How does it help immersion? Its all abstract numbers and 14 str isn't grounded in a real world unit any more than just saying 2 str.
The ability score isn't really needed from a purely mechanical perspective, but as a player/DM I like to know the scores of the characters ___. It helps immersion.
It helps immersion for long-term players because it's familiar. We know that 18 Strength is strong in the same way we know that "40 degrees" is hot (in Centigrade) or cold (in Farenheit), depending on the temperature scale we grew up using. Switching to a different system adds a layer of mental calculation in between.