Kneejerk reaction time!
Negatives:
Conceptually, they're very similar to Solarian, and I'm worried there might be a bit of toe treading going on.
I notice the Vanguard gets 6+int skill points while Solarian gets 4+int. Vanguard also gets more HP and Stamina.
Entropic strike hits against EAC, but a full fire damage Solarian Weapon still hits against KAC. Sweet. Not really a big deal though.
Pathfinder ended up shying away from directly tying Constitution with damage without some pretty severe drawbacks (Kineticist burn). It's worrisome to me that the Vanguard has this beefy 8 HP per level and con as primary stat.
11th level for flashing strikes versus 7 for Solarian seems a bit harsh.
Entropy points are going to feel really bad in play. Already, many people avoid using Resolve Points on anything but survival, so taking damage is going to be the primary means of generating them. On a class that has heavy armor, shields and AC bonus from generated EP, a bunch of misses are going to lock the player out of class features for an uncomfortably long time. Also, resistances and whatnot reducing an attack below the threshhold to generate EP is going to feel like a kick in the nuts.
Forgoing crit damage to get an EP is also going to feel lame, unless the enemy is already on its last leg. "I crit yay! Oh but instead I'll just add a point to my pool. No don't worry, I'll do something cool later guys. What do you mean you'd rather the enemy just die now?"
Having an engineering background, the vanguard aspect names feel kind of cringey.
"Flatten Bullets" - if you're hit by a kinetic ranged weapon (pretty rare in my games so far), you can spend one of your precious entropy points for the opportunity to attempt a fortitude save to halve the damage, but can only do so if you can move and are wearing heavy armor or a shield. Halving the damage might mean you don't get an EP from the attack.
"Friendly Fire" - Hey, I got tired of you guys hitting me all the time. No, don't stop doing that I'll just spend a class feature to reduce the damage. Sorry for being in the way. Sorry.
"Jump on a Grenade" - How about change this to bounce grenade (return to sender?), and make the heroic act of jumping on a grenade an option for anyone?
Positives:
It's nice to have another non-weapons based class.
I like the potential for someone to actually use combat maneuvers.
Having an engineering background, the vanguard aspect names feel kind of cringey.Hmm?
"Flatten Bullets" - if you're hit by a kinetic ranged weapon (pretty rare in my games so far), you can spend one of your precious entropy points for the opportunity to attempt a fortitude save to halve the damage, but can only do so if you can move and are wearing heavy armor or a shield. Halving the damage might mean you don't get an EP from the attack.What about changing it to any kinetic attack?
"Friendly Fire" - Hey, I got tired of you guys hitting me all the time. No, don't stop doing that I'll just spend a class feature to reduce the damage. Sorry for being in the way. Sorry.
I misread that ability at first and thought it let you absorb damage from your allies, which is awesome for a tank class.
Friendly Fire as is is absolutely horrible.
"Jump on a Grenade" - How about change this to bounce grenade (return to sender?), and make the heroic act of jumping on a grenade an option for anyone?
While anyone can jump on a grenade, actually absorbing the blast so no one else is hurt is something I don't mind being class locked since jumping on a grenade in RL, let alone a syfy setting with bigger grenades, while noble, is not going to work out well for your allies.
OH OH OH LET THIS WORK FOR SPELLS TOO! LET ME TANK A FIREBALL!!!!!!!
Knocking a grenade back would be a cool feat though.
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Friendly Fire is for comboing with Accelerate with allies who use AOE blast spells and weapons. They deliberately hit you, you reduce the damage, and then you Accelerate to hurt the enemies in the area even more.
Consider 13th level. Heat Leach does an average 58.5 (13d8) in a big cone. Assume you have 15 cold resistance. Combined with Friendly Fire, you only take on average 17.5 damage, but you can spend up to 3 EP to add an extra 39 damage to everyone else in the AOE. That's really good!
While anyone can jump on a grenade, actually absorbing the blast so no one else is hurt is something I don't mind being class locked since jumping on a grenade in RL, let alone a syfy setting with bigger grenades, while noble, is not going to work out well for your allies.
There are many postumous Medal of Honor citations where jumping on a RL grenade worked out quite well for the other parties involved.
Friendly Fire is forNeat, but that completely misses the complaint of it being an ability that damages your allies, which is very anti-tank. Not a combo i'd invest in, I rather just use Accelerate by itself.
There are many postumous Medal of Honor citations where jumping on a RL grenade worked out quite well for the other parties involved.
It can, but that doesn't mean it always does. And those who do tend to not survive.
Having an engineering background, the vanguard aspect names feel kind of cringey.Hmm?
My particular complaint is with "Adiabatic", "Boundary", "Exergy", and "Momentum"
It's like getting really excited about square roots. I get how it thematically fits, but saying "I'm a Vanguard with the Adiabatic Aspect!" is like saying "I'm a Knight of Useful Simplifying Assumptions!"
Imagine doing needlepoint a lot and then seeing a Needle based class that focuses on different martial schools named after things like the cross stitch, or the Gobelin stitch. It's like whoa calm down guys.
Having an engineering background, the vanguard aspect names feel kind of cringey.Hmm?My particular complaint is with "Adiabatic", "Boundary", "Exergy", and "Momentum"
It's like getting really excited about square roots. I get how it thematically fits, but saying "I'm a Vanguard with the Adiabatic Aspect!" is like saying "I'm a Knight of Useful Simplifying Assumptions!"
Imagine doing needlepoint a lot and then seeing a Needle based class that focuses on different martial schools named after things like the cross stitch, or the Gobelin stitch. It's like whoa calm down guys.
Ah I see, I missed the word "aspect" there and though you were talking about the Vanguard name.
Entropy points are going to feel really bad in play. Already, many people avoid using Resolve Points on anything but survival, so taking damage is going to be the primary means of generating them.
People saving their RP for survival has not been my experience running dead suns, and I constantly up the threat level of most encounters for 5 players. I hear it's been a lot of other people's experiences so maybe there's something I'm not seeing.
For my first impressions, I don't expect you to ever have more than 1 or 2 points before spending unless the combat lasts for a while. You fight normally until you get hit, then you do something in response to that.
Reading the damage reduction rules in the core rulebook, I'm not sure DR or energy resistances count against gaining entropy. My knee jerk reaction is 'of course entropy gain is after DR', but I'm not seeing anything that says 'damage after all reductions is damage dealt'. As far as I can tell, you are dealt damage, then apply your reductions.
If resistances don't count against EP generation I'd be surprised if you didn't get EP every single time you get hit. If they do, then I see why this class has a large health pool. You would want to avoid most resistances, or at least have an easy way to turn them off and on.
Friendly Fire doesn’t damage your allies. Nor does Accelerate unless your party is dumb. Using Accelerate by itself still means you take damage, it’s just more.
Step 1: Vanguard charges in.
Step 2: Vanguard’s allies blast him and surrounding enemies with energy AOEs. (Spells, explode weapons - make friends with a bombard soldier and Technomancer).
Step 3: Accelerate the AOE damage while taking trivial damage.
Step 4: Rest and recover stamina on the charred corpses of your enemies.
Friendly Fire is an investment to avoid being hurt (much). It saves your Technomancer buddy having to invest a much more precious magic hack to exclude you (grenades have no such option), and lets you survive Accelerate more easily.
I’d also be interested to see your citation to instances where someone fell on a grenade and someone else still died. Helmet turned over or armor plate pressed on top is the preferred modern method.
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Friendly Fire doesn’t damage your allies. Nor does Accelerate unless your party is dumb. Using Accelerate by itself still means you take damage, it’s just more.
Step 1: Vanguard charges in.
Step 2: Vanguard’s allies blast him and surrounding enemies with energy AOEs. (Spells, explode weapons - make friends with a bombard soldier and Technomancer).
Step 3: Accelerate the AOE damage while taking trivial damage.
Step 4: Rest and recover stamina on the charred corpses of your enemies.
Friendly Fire is an investment to avoid being hurt (much). It saves your Technomancer buddy having to invest a much more precious magic hack to exclude you (grenades have no such option), and lets you survive Accelerate more easily.
I can see how it can be used, but now I'm wondering if I ever want to see it used. It's a very video-game type of tactic. In the real world, getting hit by stuff hurts and you generally avoid it unless you're into that kind of thing.
How would the party feel about intentionally harming their friend for some difficult-to-intuitively-grasp mechanical gain? I feel like half of my characters would have a sit-down with the Vanguard to ask them to take more care of themselves and value their bodies more.
Friendly Fire doesn’t damage your allies.That makes the second time I've misread it, I read it as "you bleed energy from the attacks to your allies." opinion of the ability improved.
I’d also be interested to see your citation to instances where someone fell on a grenade and someone else still died. Helmet turned over or armor plate pressed on top is the preferred modern method.
I was talking about the grenade jumper. You can do that once in RL and you may or may not save others.
Vanguards have a class ability that gives their allies a 100% chance of protection that they can use all day provided they have healing. More to the point, they can use it more than once.
Friendly Fire doesn’t damage your allies. Nor does Accelerate unless your party is dumb. Using Accelerate by itself still means you take damage, it’s just more.
Step 1: Vanguard charges in.
Step 2: Vanguard’s allies blast him and surrounding enemies with energy AOEs. (Spells, explode weapons - make friends with a bombard soldier and Technomancer).
Step 3: Accelerate the AOE damage while taking trivial damage.
Step 4: Rest and recover stamina on the charred corpses of your enemies.
Friendly Fire is an investment to avoid being hurt (much). It saves your Technomancer buddy having to invest a much more precious magic hack to exclude you (grenades have no such option), and lets you survive Accelerate more easily.
I can see how it can be used, but now I'm wondering if I ever want to see it used. It's a very video-game type of tactic. In the real world, getting hit by stuff hurts and you generally avoid it unless you're into that kind of thing.
How would the party feel about intentionally harming their friend for some difficult-to-intuitively-grasp mechanical gain? I feel like half of my characters would have a sit-down with the Vanguard to ask them to take more care of themselves and value their bodies more.
Yeah this would be really awkward in-game.
Vanguard: Blast me! Blast me!
Kuthonite Mystic: ... okay we all need to set down and have a talk with that one.
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It's like none of you even watched Speed. It's just shoot the hostage for more challenging tactical situations.
It's like none of you even watched Speed. It's just shoot the hostage for more challenging tactical situations.
I have. I don't remember them using a rocket launcher in that scene.
It's like none of you even watched Speed. It's just shoot the hostage for more challenging tactical situations.I have. I don't remember them using a rocket launcher in that scene.
Michael Bay should have directed.
Thoughts?
The Vanguard in it's current form shouldn't exist, a Future Monk that drew inspiration from Dune's Weirding Way/Prana-Bindu along with Equilibrium's Gun Kata, and every other portrayal of fantastical Martial Arts in modern or futuristic setting.
The Vanguard's powers should just be Solairan graviton revelations.
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I know nothing about Dune, but I’m not seeing anything involving Gun Kata in the class, or martial arts aside from disciplines giving you the Improved [Combat Maneuver] Feats.
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Friendly Fire doesn’t damage your allies. Nor does Accelerate unless your party is dumb. Using Accelerate by itself still means you take damage, it’s just more.
Step 1: Vanguard charges in.
Step 2: Vanguard’s allies blast him and surrounding enemies with energy AOEs. (Spells, explode weapons - make friends with a bombard soldier and Technomancer).
Step 3: Accelerate the AOE damage while taking trivial damage.
Step 4: Rest and recover stamina on the charred corpses of your enemies.
Friendly Fire is an investment to avoid being hurt (much). It saves your Technomancer buddy having to invest a much more precious magic hack to exclude you (grenades have no such option), and lets you survive Accelerate more easily.
I can see how it can be used, but now I'm wondering if I ever want to see it used. It's a very video-game type of tactic. In the real world, getting hit by stuff hurts and you generally avoid it unless you're into that kind of thing.
How would the party feel about intentionally harming their friend for some difficult-to-intuitively-grasp mechanical gain? I feel like half of my characters would have a sit-down with the Vanguard to ask them to take more care of themselves and value their bodies more.
Yeah this would be really awkward in-game.
Vanguard: Blast me! Blast me!
Kuthonite Mystic: ... okay we all need to set down and have a talk with that one.
Vanguard: Harder Daddy!
Everyone else: What?
Vanguard: What?
I know nothing about Dune, but I’m not seeing anything involving Gun Kata in the class, or martial arts aside from disciplines giving you the Improved [Combat Maneuver] Feats.
I mistyped.
What I meant to say is this...
The Vanguard as a class in my opinion shouldn't exist, because it's redundant.
The Solarian already represents a melee focused class fueled by the cosmic powers of energy represented by Stars and entropy represented by Blackholes.
The Vanguard's abilities should just be Graviton revelations for the Solarian.
A future Monk that drew inspiration from Dune's Weirding Way, Equilibrium's Gun Kata, Battle Angel Alita's Panzer Kunst and any other portrayal of fantastical martial arts in a modern or futuristic setting would have been better.
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The Solarian already represents a melee focused class fueled by the cosmic powers of energy represented by Stars and entropy represented by Blackholes.
The Solarion represents an offense focused class.
With Vanguard we have defense.
Eh, I'd say Solar I an is flexible enough that it can go heavy offense or become a pretty great tank in it's own right. Solar Armor, slap on a shield, focus on graviton abilities and you've got a nice defensive character who has much better battlefield control and some nice offensive powers to boot when required.The Solarian already represents a melee focused class fueled by the cosmic powers of energy represented by Stars and entropy represented by Blackholes.The Solarion represents an offense focused class.
With Vanguard we have defense.
I completely forgot they could get Solar Armor.
Looking over the Revelations and their stuff is more battlefield control than purely defensive like the Vanguard.
... because we don't have even 1 book for Vanguards yet. You brought up Armory for Solarions, a book that came a couple of books after. The hardcover that Vanguards are introduced in and the ones after will have more stuff for them as well.
Vanguard can be expanded on of course in exactly how it wants to tank.
I definitely think Vanguard can have its own niche. It wouldn't even bother me if they were straight up explicitly another form of Solarian. What matters most is that it offers a fun chassis for several different builds that function differently enough.
I would say a high HP, con-focused class was missing, especially one that has abilities to make standing out from behind cover a viable prospect. As far as I'm aware, even graviton armor solarians don't walk around the battle field with impunity.
Does the current Vanguard deliver on this concept? I would say, with the addition of shields, not really because now shielded solarians are getting really hard to hit too.
I think the vanguard is missing something to make them pop. I sort of wish they could get a pool of temporary HP like energy shields built in, and use that for EP generation so they don't have to be masochists.
The Solarian already represents a melee focused class fueled by the cosmic powers of energy represented by Stars and entropy represented by Blackholes.The Solarion represents an offense focused class.
With Vanguard we have defense.
The Solarian is already contains what the Vanguard was created to represent. The Solarian has the potential to be a shield as well as sword, abilities that built off Solar Armor could have done that.
The Solarian already represents a melee focused class fueled by the cosmic powers of energy represented by Stars and entropy represented by Blackholes.The Solarion represents an offense focused class.
With Vanguard we have defense.
The Solarian is already contains what the Vanguard was created to represent. The Solarian has the potential to be a shield as well as sword, abilities that built off Solar Armor could have done that.
And the Solarion can still have abilities that build off solar armor while the Vanguard exists, they’re both distinct and different enough in how they go about their defense options.
And that's fine. The Vanguard will probably be fine for the niche that it's in, it's just much more limited than the Solarian. That's more a result of the EP system, though. It's got some kinks.And the Solarion can still have abilities that build off solar armor while the Vanguard exists, they’re both distinct and different enough in how they go about their defense options.The Solarian already represents a melee focused class fueled by the cosmic powers of energy represented by Stars and entropy represented by Blackholes.The Solarion represents an offense focused class.
With Vanguard we have defense.
The Solarian is already contains what the Vanguard was created to represent. The Solarian has the potential to be a shield as well as sword, abilities that built off Solar Armor could have done that.
Yes. And we have a Playtest too, so get at em :3
Vanguard: Blast me! Blast me!
Kuthonite Mystic: ... okay we all need to set down and have a talk with that one.
The thing I find really concerning in this hypothetical?
The weaksauce conviction of your Kuthite mystics. It sounds like someone needs to spend a couple weeks in the company of a few Joyful Things to get their head on straight.
Actually on-topic, I also thought it was a bit funky that vanguards got 6 skills per level while both of the full BAB classes only got 4.
... I was making a joke aka "I'm a Kuthonite and even I think something is off here."
And the Solarion can still have abilities that build off solar armor while the Vanguard exists, they’re both distinct and different enough in how they go about their defense options.The Solarian already represents a melee focused class fueled by the cosmic powers of energy represented by Stars and entropy represented by Blackholes.The Solarion represents an offense focused class.
With Vanguard we have defense.
The Solarian is already contains what the Vanguard was created to represent. The Solarian has the potential to be a shield as well as sword, abilities that built off Solar Armor could have done that.
The Vanguard will always feel redundant to me, and I really wonder why it's powers weren't just additional features for Solar armor and Graviton Revelations.
A future monk,a dedicated psionic, a future Alchemist, a Inventor/Artificer/Gadgeteer, A doctor/medic, a future paladin.
Would have added more to the game.
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Your argument against Vanguard can be used against your own suggestions.
Why do we need a whole space monk class? That’s covered by giving Soldier and Solarion options.
Psychic is just more stuff for Technomancer.
Inventor/Artificer/Gadgeteer is Mechanic/Technomancer.
Bio Hacker is Alchemist/Doctor/Medic.
Space Paladin is the only one with an untapped niche.
Space Paladin is probably covered by Divine Champion archetype in their view. It has a divine grace and smite analogue and even limited "divine" spell casting.
*reads* Yep, Space Paladin.
I don't bother reading the Starfinder Archetypes due to how they're set up.
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The vanguards I saw seemed to have some mobility problems. Starfinder melee is usually a blitz soldier a charging solution or your occasional operative, all of whom will be in melee well before you
If you build Vanguards as front line switch hitters, the mobility problems also seem to go away.
For example, I saw two Dex/Con builds in action which grabbed Longarm proficiency and Versatile specialization. They basically stand in front of their ranged allies, giving them soft cover if normal cover isn't available and preventing charge lanes. They used a bipod, stabilize themselves, and just full attacked with only a -2 penalty to hit until enemies came into melee range.
If an enemy charges you they typically take -2 to hit and AC, which is good for you. Once in melee range, a Vanguard can simply use a spare foot or head and full attack monk style while still holding their rifle. Also actually lets you use your defensive abilities on your typically squishier ranged allies since you are adjacent. This seemed to worked well at level 4 at least in an all ranged party.
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If you build Vanguards as front line switch hitters, the mobility problems also seem to go away.
For example, I saw two Dex/Con builds in action which grabbed Longarm proficiency and Versatile specialization. They basically stand in front of their ranged allies, giving them soft cover if normal cover isn't available and preventing charge lanes. They used a bipod, stabilize themselves, and just full attacked with only a -2 penalty to hit until enemies came into melee range.
If an enemy charges you they typically take -2 to hit and AC, which is good for you. Once in melee range, a Vanguard can simply use a spare foot or head and full attack monk style while still holding their rifle. Also actually lets you use your defensive abilities on your typically squishier ranged allies since you are adjacent. This seemed to worked well at level 4 at least in an all ranged party.
That works if your entire party is ranged. One melee person and it won t