What is an "attribute of a spell"?

[SuperBidi]

Hello everyone,

I don't think this rule question has been raised before.

Technomancer's magic hack states "When casting a spell, you can apply no more than one magic hack that affects the attributes of a spell (such as distant spell or extended spell)."

But I don't find what hack "affects the attributes of a spell".

Distant spell, Widened spell, Quicken spell and Extended spell are obvious answers. But Eternal spell, Energize spell or Harmful spells? And Selective targeting, Spellshot, Debug spell or Spell grenade?

This point of the rules is rather unclear. At first, I would consider that all these hacks qualify, as they all change somehow an attribute of a spell. But as I'm sometimes mastering in SFS, I fear to face disagreements from my players, and I don't want endless rules debates. So, I want to be sure about my point of view.

Thanks for your help!

[Xenocrat]

I think it's the ones that cost resolve and change the top line, standard/universal "attributes" that apply to all spells, like casting time, duration, etc.

There's no way eternal spell, energize spell, or spell shot apply. I doubt harmful spells does.

[SuperBidi]

Xenocrat wrote:

There's no way eternal spell, energize spell, or spell shot apply.

Why?

[Xenocrat]

SuperBidi wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

There's no way eternal spell, energize spell, or spell shot apply.

Why?

Tell me what "attribute of a spell" they are modifying. No spell description has "may only be cast by expending a spell slot" or "can't be combined with a ranged attack" as part of its stat block.

Or to put it differently, some magic hacks don't change attributes of the spell, they change attributes of the overall magic rules (eternal spell, energize spell) or combat/action rules (spell shot).

Harmful Spells is a gray area to me, because I'm not sure that "attribute of a spell" applies to the detailed write up of an individual spell or just the standardized stuff in the header.

[SuperBidi]

Spellshot changes range.
For Eternal and Energize spells, I understand your point of view. Still, if there is no clear definition of an "attribute of a spell", it will be up to GM interpretation all the time.

[Ravingdork]

When a term is not specifically defined as a gaming term, one defaults to the standard English definition to provide clarity and understanding.

attribute
[verb uh-trib-yoot; noun a-truh-byoot]

—verb (used with object), at·trib·ut·ed, at·trib·ut·ing.

1. to regard as resulting from a specified cause; consider as caused by something indicated (usually followed by to ): She attributed his bad temper to ill health.

2. to consider as a quality or characteristic of the person, thing, group, etc., indicated: He attributed intelligence to his colleagues.

3. to consider as made by the one indicated, especially with strong evidence but in the absence of conclusive proof: to attribute a painting to an artist.

4. to regard as produced by or originating in the time, period, place, etc., indicated; credit; assign: to attribute a work to a particular period; to attribute a discovery to a particular country.

—noun

5. something attributed as belonging to a person, thing, group, etc.; a quality, character, characteristic, or property: Sensitivity is one of his attributes.

6. something used as a symbol of a particular person, office, or status: A scepter is one of the attributes of a king.

7. Grammar. a word or phrase that is syntactically subordinate to another and serves to limit, identify, particularize, describe, or supplement the meaning of the form with which it is in construction. In the red house, red is an attribute of house.

8. Fine Arts. an object associated with or symbolic of a character, office, or quality, as the keys of St. Peter or the lion skin of Hercules.

9. Philosophy. (in the philosophy of Spinoza) any of the essential qualifications of God, thought and extension being the only ones known. Compare mode1 (def 4b).

10. Logic. (in a proposition) that which is affirmed or denied concerning the subject.

11. Obsolete. distinguished character; reputation.

Origin: 1350–1400; Middle English < Latin attribūtus allotted, assigned, imputed to (past participle of attribuere), equivalent to at- at- + tribū- (stem of tribuere to assign (to tribes), classify, ascribe; see tribe) + -tus past participle suffix

—Related forms
at·trib·ut·a·ble, adjective
at·trib·ut·er, at·trib·u·tor, noun
mis·at·trib·ute, verb, mis·at·trib·ut·ed, mis·at·trib·ut·ing.
non·at·trib·ut·a·ble, adjective
re·at·trib·ute, verb (used with object), re·at·trib·ut·ed, re·at·trib·ut·ing.
un·at·trib·ut·a·ble, adjective
un·at·trib·ut·a·bly, adverb
un·at·trib·ut·ed, adjective
well-at·trib·ut·ed, adjective

—Synonym Study
1. ATTRIBUTE, ASCRIBE, IMPUTE imply definite origin. ATTRIBUTE and ASCRIBE are often used interchangeably, to imply that something originates with a definite person or from a definite cause. ASCRIBE, however, has neutral implications; whereas, possibly because of an association with tribute, ATTRIBUTE is coming to have a complimentary connotation: to ascribe an accident to carelessness; to attribute one's success to a friend's encouragement. IMPUTE has gained uncomplimentary connotations, and usually means to accuse or blame someone or something as a cause or origin: to impute an error to him. 5. See quality.

Man, was that a pain in the butt to format!

[Magyar5]

SPELL NAME
School
Casting Time
Range
Area affected space (S)
Effect
Targets
Duration
Saving Throw
Spell Resistance
Effect

These are the attributes of a spell (see page 333). Only a single magic hack which alters these attributes can be applied to the spell.

In your example you ask about some additional hacks:

Energize Spell: This simply allows you to cast an additional spell and does not affect a spells attributes. You could use this in conjunction with another Magic Hack to alter the attributes of the spell this magic hack allows you to cast.

Harmful Spell: This spell alters the effect of the spell (ie.. damage dealt). It falls in to the single magic hack use category.

Selective Targeting: Alters the area of a spell. One Magic Hack applies.

Debug Spell: This alters the damage of a spell. One magic hack applies.

Eternal Spell: This spell alters the number of spells you can cast, not any of the spells attributes. You can cast a 1st level spell at will instead of X times a day. You could use a Magic Hack to alter this spells attributes when you cast it.

Spell Shot: This spell alters the 'range' of the spell. One magic hack applies.

Spell Grenade: This alters the target of the spell. One magic hack applies

Does this answer your questions?

[SuperBidi]

Thanks a lot!

I'm more sure of my reading and will be able to stop rule debates if they happen in my games.

At first, I was also including Energize spell and Eternal spell, but I will remove them from the hacks modifying an attribute, as it looks like you all agree on that.

[Ravingdork]

Magyar5 wrote:

SPELL NAME

School
Casting Time
Range
Area affected space (S)
Effect
Targets
Duration
Saving Throw
Spell Resistance
Effect

These are the attributes of a spell (see page 333).

I don't see anything in the section you cited that says those are "attributes of the spell" any more or less than any other part of the spell.

[Magyar5]

Ravingdork wrote:

Magyar5 wrote:

SPELL NAME

School
Casting Time
Range
Area affected space (S)
Effect
Targets
Duration
Saving Throw
Spell Resistance
Effect

These are the attributes of a spell (see page 333).

I don't see anything in the section you cited that says those are "attributes of the spell" any more or less than any other part of the spell.

I was using your definition provided earlier as a valid form of attribute inference. Notably, the following definition -

2. to consider as a quality or characteristic of the person, thing, group, etc., indicated:

Those are all qualities of the thing (spell) indicated.

[Moonwalker]

Allow me to start by pointing out the two known facts: a) There is indeed no general ruling on what qualifies as "the attributes of a spell", but we know that b) distant spell or extended spell affect one of those attributes, namely range and duration, respectively.

Everything else is subject to interpretation. Personally, I would only include what is listed in the spell description format, i.e. school, casting time, range, area, effect, targets, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance; thus ignoring possible additions in the descriptive text, if they do not refer to one of these nine attributes. Since Paizo authors - as most people - are linguistically not particularly competent or aware of coherence, one can make an educated guess at best. The GM's experience is the best judge in most cases, and he has the last word anyway.

Lastly, it is unambiguous to me from the RAW that spellshot does in fact alter the effective range but not the range of the spell itself (nor its casting time). Hence, I would argue that this is no exclusive magic hack.

[Darg727]

I agree that spellshot does not alter an attribute of a spell, merely the method of delivery. Were it to alter the actual range of a spell, you would be able to massively increase the size of cone spells such as overheat. 15,000ft cones seem really excessive

[BigNorseWolf]

I'd think it would be anything besides the spell needing to use spellslots.