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I'd like to raise a concern with the magical rune trap on pages 13-15. Or to be more specific, how this was allowed in a scenario that outsider PCs will eventually play and will end up turning someone's new Aasimar PC into a vegetable.
The trap doesn't do ability damage nor drain, its simply "reduces". Am I reading this correct that a tier 1-4 scenario includes a trap that failure to spot it takes whatever numbers are the character's current Int and Wis, crosses them out on the sheet, and replaces them with permanent and non-recoverable 0's - and without so much as a savings throw?
Character death is a deeply emotional event, this feels like a fate worse than death and will certainly cause strife with GMs and VOs.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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I went trough my notes and I did indeed not write a 'cure' clause into the trap, my bad. I do remember discussing the severity of the trap, because there might be outsider PCs at one point. So the wards had to be severe enough to keep the outsiders in the complex from escaping, it would not have to outright kill them.
But for an outsider PC to get caught in this, the PC would need extreme bad luck, (or a pretty nasty GM), as there are a lot of ways the wards can be spotted.
Plain perception can spot the wards when the room is searched. Detect magic auto detects the wards. Any non outsider walking trough get a fortitude save, which alerts them something weird is going on with the doorway. The DC to spot the wards gets easier when someone walks trough them.
And as a last resort, an outsider immediately gets nauseated when next to the wards. This happens before they cross. There is no save against this effect for an outsider, so they know something is up. This does not prevent them from walking trough anyway, but it should give them pause.
This makes the chance of an outsider PC walking trough the wards pretty slim.
If an outsider PC does get caught, there would need to be an official ruling from Thurston on how to handle it.
My suggestion would be that a Remove Affliction spell can remove it, with the DC based on the save DC for non-outsiders.
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I don't know if the nausea is a clear enough warning; when a non-outsider PC walks through and fail their save, they feel nauseated but then it goes away and has no lasting effects. An outsider approaches, feels nauseated, there's no indication that they'll face a more severe result by continuing through. GMs would have to whisper, "you get the feeling that continuing through would be very bad for you".
Also, what's to say the outsider PC isn't the first to go through? And they might believe the nausea is a deterrent they must simply power through.
A much clearer warning, such as "you're wracked with unbearable pain as your outsider essence is being torn apart as you approach the door" would be more appropriate IMHO.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Well, I think they're quite different:
* A non-outsider doesn't notice anything until they step through the ward, and then they still get a save.
* An outsider gets nauseated just by getting near it, no save.
Suppose a non-outsider is the first one to walk through; then the runes flash, and at least someone in the party should succeed at the DC 12 perception check to notice that. Hey, we tripped something. Maybe we should investigate? Hey, the tiefling feels bad just by getting near, while the shirren walked right through.
Or suppose the outsider is the first one to get near. "When you step close to the doorway you suddenly feel awful. You're Nauseated." At that point the outsider player knows something is going on. Conditions without saves are pretty heavy stuff, that doesn't randomly happen. Maybe better to investigate it first? If the guy really does just push through, well, that's frankly just really reckless.
The only really bad situation I can imagine is if the only PC in the party with Mysticism is the outsider. At that point as GM I'd say "you guys should really come up with a Creative Solution for this". And be pretty easygoing on what I'd accept as a solution, as long as they come up with a halfway plausible idea. Because I'm not a monster, I'm not going to insist one player wait outside the dungeon or go in and get feebleminded.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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When you see conditions mostly as a thing that hamper you in combat, its easy to dismiss Nauseated.
Nauseated is neatly described as 'stomach distress'. But it basically means you're either puking, or too preoccupied with trying not to, that you cant do much more then just standing around.
If standing next to something makes you so sick to your stomach you have to puke, it should give you pause.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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After-action report, because I'd like to share this:
I love how two of the combats really make you think about spacing. The ram in the starship combat was a fantastic thing. We were really circling around trying to stay away from the ram while still being able to target their weak side. I really liked that. Especially since initiative is now reverted. Going first is really good for them, because now they can get in ramming distance before you have time to maneuver away. Whereas before, all the starship combats devolved into "roll as high as possible, let the other ship go first, then maneuver to an advantageous position." Now, that high bonus meant it was easier for the enemy to get close. Ironically, in this case, you'd want someone who is terrible at Piloting to be at the wheel.
The second thing is, the fight with the Gremlins was fantastic. Being forced to split the party to shunt out the things mean you can't get into optimal battle formation. Also, the hazards on the ground mean you can't maneuver as easily, while the enemy has no such penalties. I've rarely (never?) seen authors make use of terrain as part of the combat.
The story was a bit muddled, though. Maybe because my GM had a thick accent that made some of the narrative hard to understand, but that part didn't really leave a lasting impression.
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Ran this a week back and one player didn't want to go into the room with the Oni, before even going to that room. Between the Terracotta Spiders and Howler Devils, he was more or less useless as his weapons wouldn't hurt either. After learning that something had been living in the ruins for who knows how long, and fighting outsiders, he didn't want to risk it.
Speaking of the oni fight, after throwing Fear at some of the players, the Icon Solarion who knew Goblinoid, tried to intimidate the Oni... and that threw the Oni into a rage as he tried to beat the solarian to death. so he didn't get a chance to overcharge his dross rifle.
We ran low-tier with the four player adjustment.
A friend of mine, who ran the scenario at a small convention the same week killed a player with the Overcharged Dross Rifle- as the party had been spending Resolve- and were out by the time they reached the oni.
Venture-Agent, Netherlands
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I have a question for the editors in this case, I just would like to understand the reasoning/decision in the case of the trap on page 19 (Armoury).
The background of my question is that I'm lucky enough to know Tineke in real life and she asked me to playtest this scenario and during that playtest, the trap had an activation pad in the first square of the Armoury, which meant maximum amount of people would likely be standing on the trap (3) and they would all need help (this happened in the playtesting stage).
My question is this: Why did you remove the activation pad? This completely changes the dynamic of the trap...it is now totally pointless to have 3 squares of the trap when the whole trap activates on the 1st square leaving the other two useless. This happened to me when we played it (I played it with Kwinten) I didn't want to metagame but I play a Skittermander (always helpful, needs to check doors first even if a Mystic) so it made sense for my character to go first. I step on the trap, it goes off (left me slightly confused tbh) then I can easily see all 3 squares, I manage to get off it, then we just destroyed all 3 squares of the trap with 0 effort. It has now ruined that trap IMO because only that 1st square is relevant.
Is the removal an oversight? Did it take up too much room in the scenario? Was it too brutal?
My main goal is to understand the process that happens when you see a trap like that and what you are trying to achieve by removing the activation mechanism, it turned it from a quite formidable trap into something almost useless (1 out of 3 squares).
Other than this, I loved playing it! Having a great pilot that won initiative all the time almost ruined us because of the ram! And like Kwinten said, I would love to see more scenarios making use of maps and spreading people out before the fight and using the terrain as it was an awesome experience!
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I think this is obvious but I’m trying to make sure I don’t give the players too many (or too few) failures in Encounter B.
Let’s say we have a six-player table. We assign Tineke, Lau, and Auke to separate terminals to flush out the gremlins. Tineke succeeds at her check but Lau and Auke fail. For purposes of tracking failures, is that two failures or one?
We have to try again, since we didn’t all succeed. Does Tineke have to try again as well?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I think this is obvious but I’m trying to make sure I don’t give the players too many (or too few) failures in Encounter B.
Let’s say we have a six-player table. We assign Tineke, Lau, and Auke to separate terminals to flush out the gremlins. Tineke succeeds at her check but Lau and Auke fail. For purposes of tracking failures, is that two failures or one?
Two.
We have to try again, since we didn’t all succeed. Does Tineke have to try again as well?
Yes.
Don't be too shy about assigning failures. If the PCs start using things that cause a lot of collateral damage that's also bad. The target numbers are pretty generous, because we playtested with level 1 pregens.
You'll notice the gremlins are restrained by tactics from all ganging up on someone and Jolting Surgeing some hapless new PC to death - the pregen playtest showed some danger spots :P
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Oh boy yeah :P
You'll notice the gremlins are restrained by tactics from all ganging up on someone and Jolting Surgeing some hapless new PC to death - the pregen playtest showed some danger spots :P
Yeah I empirically showed that 6 CR 1/2 creatures each delivering a 4d6 damage spell on level 1 pregens was bad. Who knew... :P
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands
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Yeah I empirically showed that 6 CR 1/2 creatures each delivering a 4d6 damage spell on level 1 pregens was bad. Who knew... :POh boy yeah :P
You'll notice the gremlins are restrained by tactics from all ganging up on someone and Jolting Surgeing some hapless new PC to death - the pregen playtest showed some danger spots :P
Major ouch time...but was great we tested it. So. Many. TPKs. Avoided.
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GMed it yesterday. Very fun, maybe a few too many “plot hooks.” Few quick notes for fellow GMs:
Pacing: this adventure can be quite long at Tier 1-2. The Starship combat setup encourages the players to run away once they figure out the ram. And the they will often try to optimize their position to give more options to run away the next round. Although the tactics don’t really tell you anything other than “be aggressive,” I encourage you NOT to recharge shields (as usual at low levels). Diverting power to engines is good once the PCs start running. When you land you’ve got 4 more combats and some exploring to do, so be very cognizant of time while roleplaying with the evacuees.
PC success: there’s a delicate balance here between giving the PCs so little info that they fail to preserve the hangar bay and make discoveries and so much that you are handing them the success conditions. When the gremlin fight starts you can have Kerchatu make comments like “it’s going to take longer to fix now” or “do we have enough spares?” to impress on them that they need to stop the gremlins quickly. In the complex, there are so many discovery points available that you shouldn’t need to hold their hands at all. Mine didn’t even think about mapping the surface ruins and still got way more points than they needed for the secondary success. Unless they ignore the whole “explore” part of their mission they should be fine.
The little quibbles: if your players (like mine) know the rules and lore well they might catch on to the following two things. Sansorgis is in Near Space (mentioned several times) so have them roll 3d6 for travel days, not 5d6. The devils’ morale condition doesn’t really fit with mechanics (a summoning would have ended long ago and a calling would have given them a one-time plane shift home). Just ignore it. I made the mistake of adding in some combat banter (“either we kill you, or you finally send us back home”) and it led to a lengthy diversion.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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GMed it yesterday. Very fun, maybe a few too many “plot hooks.” Few quick notes for fellow GMs:
Pacing: this adventure can be quite long at Tier 1-2. The Starship combat setup encourages the players to run away once they figure out the ram. And the they will often try to optimize their position to give more options to run away the next round. Although the tactics don’t really tell you anything other than “be aggressive,” I encourage you NOT to recharge shields (as usual at low levels). Diverting power to engines is good once the PCs start running. When you land you’ve got 4 more combats and some exploring to do, so be very cognizant of time while roleplaying with the evacuees.
Yeah, a GM could drag it out if he really wanted to (as with most starship combats), but that's not fun and not needed. Once the players "figure it out" then the combat should swing their way.
PC success: there’s a delicate balance here between giving the PCs so little info that they fail to preserve the hangar bay and make discoveries and so much that you are handing them the success conditions. When the gremlin fight starts you can have Kerchatu make comments like “it’s going to take longer to fix now” or “do we have enough spares?” to impress on them that they need to stop the gremlins quickly. In the complex, there are so many discovery points available that you shouldn’t need to hold their hands at all. Mine didn’t even think about mapping the surface ruins and still got way more points than they needed for the secondary success. Unless they ignore the whole “explore” part of their mission they should be fine.
Funny; when I ran it last week they got 6 points only barely. There's a couple of DP redundancy, because an unbalanced party may not have the skills to collect all of them. In our case, nobody was trained in Mysticism and that proved to be a significant handicap.
Also, the DP for bringing back the oni is really a blue moon condition: you have to somehow subdue a regenerating enemy without killing him (and you can't beat him to -20 to give you time to tie him up, because in Starfinder 0hp is 0hp is 0hp), and get him through the ward intact. That's quite an accomplishment; if you succeed you deserve the DP, but those DP shouldn't be counted as normal to be expected points.
The little quibbles: if your players (like mine) know the rules and lore well they might catch on to the following two things. Sansorgis is in Near Space (mentioned several times) so have them roll 3d6 for travel days, not 5d6. The devils’ morale condition doesn’t really fit with mechanics (a summoning would have ended long ago and a calling would have given them a one-time plane shift home). Just ignore it. I made the mistake of adding in some combat banter (“either we kill you, or you finally send us back home”) and it led to a lengthy diversion.
I think the travel time got mixed up in editing, originally Sansorgis was in the Vast.
The devils... look at that intelligence modifier. These aren't conversationalists.
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Not counting the Oni there are 9 Discovery Points available. The PCs only need 4 for their primary success. Unless the PCs completely forget they are on an archeological mission, they should do enough to get that. I was just noting that unlike some scenarios it isn’t necessary to spoon-feed the PCs the checks (“This one part of the mural that I didn’t describe any differently than the murals in the previous three rooms might be worth making a Knowledge:History check on.”) as the points are mostly tied to things they will naturally want to do on their own as they explore. Good job with that, Tineke.
The Oni is a “blue-moon condition.” It’s going to take some fancy footwork to capture him with the Starfinder mechanics. (One person ties up while others ready attacks?) More importantly, the PCs have to realize it might be worth capturing him. That’s why I had the devils banter. Trying to give the idea that theses creatures might have info.
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Venture-Agent, Michigan—Detroit
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I think the travel time got mixed up in editing, originally Sansorgis was in the Vast.
That would make sense, as the planets listed in the data files (C9) are all supposed to be in the Vast AND 3 are within the bounds of the current Gideron Authority or Marixah Republic territories. That doesn't seem possible, based on the way the mod reads. I think placing the planets in Near Space "fixes" the discrepancy.