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Dear Paizo Leaders,
I am worried about the future of your marvelous company. I was recently at a convention, the amazing Scarefest in Montreat NC and noticed that v2 playtests were not get people excited and many tables did not make. I am one of the people that are not excited. The players at the PFS tables where talking about how next year will be is the last Scarefest we will be playing PFS v1.
When I got home, I had a package on my doorstep from Paizo with the products from my various Paizo subscriptions. I was excited, but immediately a thought came to mind. "I am not sure if I am going to play v2. I had better cancel my subscriptions after GenCon" What worries me is, I am not alone. This is a thought that many other players are going to have. I may sign up again but not until I am sure I want to play v2.
My question/concern for Paizo as a company is "Are you ready?"
Are you ready and prepared for a potentially significant drop in the number of people who are signed up for subscriptions? Is the year or so it can take for people to decide if they want to play the official v2 release and then start to invest in it going to cause a finical decline you may not recover from?
I hope this is not true and that the answer to the questions is you are ready and prepared. I do not want to see Paizo and Pathfinder disappear.
Honestly, I wouldn't expect an answer because this is a question that can't be properly answered. Nobody in a business sense every truly "ready" in the terms that seem to have been suggested by a fair amount of naysayers going on. Yeah, the amount of subscriptions are most likely going to go down initially from the people who don't enjoy the play test so far. How much is yet to be certain because while there are those who have just about gone the "I'm going to burn every Paizo product I own because they have betrayed me!" route, there are those who have said they're not enjoying the play test, but want to show support and will decide their subscriptions after a few months based on whether or not PF2 will be a product they want to keep, and there are those saying "Hey, there are people who never played PF1 for <insert whatever reason here> but are excited to play PF2 because of what the play test shows."
So yeah, the first few months may seem rough, but PF2 will bring new players to the table which means opportunity to create subscriptions that fill in those that were no longer continued. And while subscriptions may not be valid towards PF1 content, they have already said that they will still support PF1. They are still going to sell it, they are still going to answer questions, it will still have support. So yeah, while we won't get new PF1 source books, PF1 isn't going to be told "Go to hell, we don't care about you anymore." So if there is still support to be had there, then even though subscriptions won't be continued, the money that was coming in via subscription could go to unowned content.
Well, yeah, they're ready. That's why they're doing this. It will pretty much drop my Paizo purchases down to just pawns, maps and minis, but what can ya do?
I'm pretty unsure if I'll keep up my AP suscription. The new magic paradigm makes the new stories inherently incompatible to the old ones. It is probably too much work to rework the entire AP to the old system on top of all the other work I do for a normal PF1E one.
They're ready.
Despite all the anecdotal evidence from people who say they'll (probably) not play 2E, Paizo expects an increase in sales. If they didn't, they wouldn't release the product.
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“Expectations“ and “Reality“ don't always conform to each other.
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They are as ready as they can be. This is their livelihoods we are talking about. I think people forget that.
Of course it is still risky, but NO ONE is simply going to throw away their livelihood. Most people take that VERY seriously, and when you have a small company, where people depend on you for their paychecks, you don't make risky decisions lightly.
Creative Director
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I'm pretty unsure if I'll keep up my AP suscription. The new magic paradigm makes the new stories inherently incompatible to the old ones. It is probably too much work to rework the entire AP to the old system on top of all the other work I do for a normal PF1E one.
From where I'm sitting this isn't the case. I helped come up with the new magic paradigm (Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Occult) SPECIFICALLY to help contextualize how it works in Golarion. From my position, this system works perfectly fine for Golarion stories. I suppose folks will need to wait until the game's actually out to see it in action and interacting with the world in a flavor way rather than just as raw rules though.
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From where I'm sitting this isn't the case. I helped come up with the new magic paradigm (Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Occult) SPECIFICALLY to help contextualize how it works in Golarion. From my position, this system works perfectly fine for Golarion stories. I suppose folks will need to wait until the game's actually out to see it in action and interacting with the world in a flavor way rather than just as raw rules though.
The problem I see is that the power, duration, range, versatility, number of targets and availability of 90+% of all spells have been nerfed, most of them rather severely. You said in the past that ideally a PF1E caster could wake up in the second edition reality and not know the difference. That is, under the current version of the playtest rules, utterly impossible. It is laughable that the Runelords would have been capable of accrueing the level of power and influence necessary to rule through power, since their main source of power, magic, lacks the juice to influence the world sufficiently to allow them to obtain their stations.
Furthermore, the fixed one minute duration of most buffs has killed the single caster fight often encountered in many AP's.
Lastly, the changed spell levels and rarity of priorily commonly available spells (Teleport, Fly, etc) changes base assumptions of how an AP will unfold, which GM's who want to rework the new AP's back to PF1E need to actually rewrite.
I'm sorry, James, I really lack your optimism about the compatibility of the two editions in terms of worldbuilding and storytelling.
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I'm sorry, James, I really lack your optimism about the compatibility of the two editions in terms of worldbuilding and storytelling.Given what I've seen of Paizo's storytelling and worldbuilding, theirs and yours are whole planes of existence apart.
Yeah, it's pretty much like two different editions of one game. A testimony to Pathfinder's versatility, for sure, but a bit of a pickle when it comes to managing one's expectations versus reality.
Yeah, it's pretty much like two different editions of one game. A testimony to Pathfinder's versatility, for sure, but a bit of a pickle when it comes to managing one's expectations versus reality.I'm sorry, James, I really lack your optimism about the compatibility of the two editions in terms of worldbuilding and storytelling.Given what I've seen of Paizo's storytelling and worldbuilding, theirs and yours are whole planes of existence apart.
Don't forget that straight and pure mechanics are being deemed as all important over narrative story telling in this case, despite the fact that (if not done in a pretentious "eff off I'm god" way) narrative can still over rule mechanics.
I'm sorry, James, I really lack your optimism about the compatibility of the two editions in terms of worldbuilding and storytelling.Given what I've seen of Paizo's storytelling and worldbuilding, theirs and yours are whole planes of existence apart.
Are those kinds of waspish comments really necessary?
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I'm sorry, James, I really lack your optimism about the compatibility of the two editions in terms of worldbuilding and storytelling.
I think you are focused way too much into the rules details. I'd feel comfortable running Pathfinder APs under just about any version of D&D or other fantasy RPGs and the "worldbuilding and storytelling" would feel the same to me. I ran Kingmaker using DCC with zero prep converting monsters on the fly just fine. Maybe PC wizards were a bit weirder than they might be, but the overall story worked just great.
Of course, I'm more likely to convert to a medium to light weight rulesystem, so your mileage may very.
I must admit, I've been toying with dropping my AP subscription. But not because I don't think I'd enjoy the new adventures they will build, but because I already have a dozen APs I haven't played or run yet, and it'll be quite some time before I really use the ones I have. I'm mostly likely to switch to Starfinder for a while, just for the variety.
I'm sorry, James, I really lack your optimism about the compatibility of the two editions in terms of worldbuilding and storytelling.I think you are focused way too much into the rules details.
Mmmmm. On the one hand, I'd like to point out that the topic magnuskn is talking about is specifically rules-based. As in, how the specific rules interact with the story relative to the old specific rules. You can't be focused too much on the rules when you're talking about the rules.
That said, upon some reflection, I don't know anymore that James is wrong. I'm tired (it's 1am and I just finished running my StrangeOns game), but I can't think of a series of story encounters in an Paizo AP I've played/run that truly relied on PF1 spells to survive/win. Sure, many encounters would be TPK as-written due to traps/environments/monsters as-written, and sure, the occasional puzzle or challenge requires a specific spell to trigger/solve them, but on consideration, Paizo is pretty careful to not write one single solution to anything. They don't assume a specific party composition, or availability of specific spells. As such, the new eunuch magic* probably could survive.
*This is deliberately self-mocking hyperbole/exaggeration. Yes, I'm (very) underwhelmed by the current magic rules. No, I don't think it's that bad.
In closing, yes, I agree that there's absolutely a gargantuan style difference in PF2 spells that have to change the feel of magic on Golarion, based on what we've been shown so far. Maybe James has seen something different. Dunno. But beyond incredibly dampened feel, I suspect he's very right that the spirit of most stories - not the literal word of them - could be told with PF2. Runelords in PF2? Well, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Doesn't matter than in the previous edition everyone was a beholder. << Sorry for the edition-crossing monster reference.
As much as yours are.
True, I have been unkind to you as well in the past. My apologies, once again.
Keep in mind, my storytelling is likely just as distant.
In fact, having played at James' table, I'm pretty confident it is.
True enough. I have some hopes that I will be able to write a novel to completion one day, but after hammering out the broad concepts by now, it is specifically the detailed worldbuilding which is kicking my ass at the moment.
Otherwise most of what Anguish said in his last post, although I can easily think of a row of caster opponents in AP's past who would fall from a climactic boss encounter to muppets, unless you add additional mechanics to them which PC's cannot obtain, i.e. MMO mechanics.
When people say that there are going to be new people starting under P2e, starting up subscriptions, buying products, who are these people?
Possibly people who used to get P1e stuff, but don't anymore? People who stopped rpgs when 4th Ed came along? People who are playing other rpgs like Rolemaster? People who are playing 5th Ed? People (teens, for example) who for whom it would be their first rpg?
I can see small numbers of 5e, ex-P1e, other rpgers, and newbies, but how does the 'good news' of the playtest and the shiny new P2e get to these people? They're not involved in the playtest...the only people that have a high level of interest in P2e are P1e players - whether they're paying any attention to the playtest or not!
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When people say that there are going to be new people starting under P2e, starting up subscriptions, buying products, who are these people?
The same people who have been doing so under PF1E. Players who started with 5E and are looking for something different, players who quit when 1E/2E/3.0/3.5/4E/5E started and are now coming back, players who have never played an RPG before and are looking to start. Player populations are not stagnant (no matter how hard some bad actors try to make them) so you always have people entering and leaving.
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When people say that there are going to be new people starting under P2e, starting up subscriptions, buying products, who are these people?The same people who have been doing so under PF1E. Players who started with 5E and are looking for something different, players who quit when 1E/2E/3.0/3.5/4E/5E started and are now coming back, players who have never played an RPG before and are looking to start. Player populations are not stagnant (no matter how hard some bad actors try to make them) so you always have people entering and leaving.
I have met so many people that had never once touched a set of dice until they watched Critical Role. These unknown players are out there, and they do continue to grow. Hell, I've been seeing more and more stories lately about how schools and extra curricular centers are using DnD to help build grammar, creativity, mathematics, and many other useful real world skills to students all over the place. Just because there's a lot of people here who are claiming the death of Paizo with PF2 doesn't mean that there's no one left in the world who will every play tabletop again.
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I can see small numbers of 5e, ex-P1e, other rpgers, and newbies, but how does the 'good news' of the playtest and the shiny new P2e get to these people? They're not involved in the playtest...the only people that have a high level of interest in P2e are P1e players - whether they're paying any attention to the playtest or not!
The only news they need is that a new edition of the game is coming in August 2019, and Paizo has still plenty of time to market that. Playtest is a marketing tool, but far from only one.
Given the dwindling number of PF1 players and the fact that Paizo isn't gunning for 5E players, the primary target seems to be new people coming into RPGs. This isn't a target you aim for with playtests, since they've yet to start playing actively, let alone playtesting anything.
Besides, I wonder what is your estimate of "small" numbers based on. Any data? I mean, anything more concrete then "well I think so because I think so?".
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"Are you ready?"
I think it would be hard for them to answer this question as posed. They would have to agree with your assumption that there will be a significant drop in subscriptions. So far their public commentary does not seem to support It. If so, no I don’t think they are necessarily prepared for it any more than any company is prepared for a sudden loss in business.
Virtually every project Paizo has published from the original Adventure Path model, to Pathfinder RPG (including a complete line of related products), to Adventure Card Game, to Starfinder, etc. have been successful. After more than a decade of publishing, they seem to have a pretty good record of publishing things we like despite the vocal minority criticizing any/all of these products from day one. I think they believe that Pathfinder 2E is going to be just as successful and there is a very large portion of the silent majority that appears eager to prove that correct.
...or as James Jacobs said, “We’ll see”
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The problem I see here is that terms like “vocal minority“ and “silent majority“ get thrown around by the pro-2E crowd as if they were actual facts instead of the same type of guesses my side of the argument is making.
Yep, this applies to both sides.
I knew that we would eventually get a 2nd ed but was really hoping that wouldn't be for another 5 years. So many things I wanted to see for 1e but nothing good stays the same. I wonder if things would be different if D&D 5th ed wasn't a success but I guess we will never know.
As for "vocal minority"/"silent majority", don't care, we will not know anything until 2nd ed gets released. Though knowing my luck if I still don't like it, it will be a success, but if I warm up to it, it will be a failure.
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Any online forum is by default a vocal minority. It's a self-selecting population made up of only the strongest opinions.
Definitely this. I'd expect most newbies to be intimidated by the current rough tone in the forum and not be very vocal due to this.
But the PF2 crowd is there irl. I recently met some of them at a small convention. Today I know more new people starting PF2 or switching to PF2 than I know people staying at PF1 (which includes me).
From this point of view I think Paizo won't go under due to publishing PF2 and I wish them great success. After all they have been and will be for many years to come provide us with fun adventures to play.
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The problem I see here is that terms like “vocal minority“ and “silent majority“ get thrown around by the pro-2E crowd as if they were actual facts instead of the same type of guesses my side of the argument is making.
That is true to some extend, but there are leaders who talk to each other about the state of affairs in their region and some of us attend more than a dozen conventions each year across a wide swathe of territory. When you add all those interactions up it’s akin to a reasonable sampling size for any statistical analysis and can be especially helpful in determining what “pulse” of the majority. Most online topics see dozens of posters, a few even see hundreds, but some of us are able to get feedback in the thousands range. While no one is suggesting they know definitely the answer to questions like this, we can reasonably make a minority vs majority assessment.
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Any online forum is by default a vocal minority. It's a self-selecting population made up of only the strongest opinions.Definitely this. I'd expect most newbies to be intimidated by the current rough tone in the forum and not be very vocal due to this.
In my humble opinion, people are willing to jump through flaming hoops into the mouths of ravenous rabid robotic tigers while having their genitalia electrocuted in order to voice their opinion when it's unwanted, let alone during a "what do you think" period.
If you respond and I seem to vanish, it's because a robotiger ate me.
For those who have spent a good deal of money on PF 1E books, and are hoping to continue to play it in the future. Players available will quickly dwindle once those books go out of print. Sure, there will be PDFs to download, but is every player willing to spend the time and money to print these books out one at a time themselves? Punching holes in each page in batches and buying binders to place them into. Spending lots of money on ink and heavy test paper just to play a game that should have never died in the first place?
For those who are about to be bit by the RPG marketing bug for the first time, just know that this is the norm, and will not get any better. Each version that comes out will either get people on board, or push them away entirely. This is the way of things, there's nothing you can do but watch how things play out.
For those who have spent a good deal of money on PF 1E books, and are hoping to continue to play it in the future. Players available will quickly dwindle once those books go out of print. Sure, there will be PDFs to download, but is every player willing to spend the time and money to print these books out one at a time themselves? Punching holes in each page in batches and buying binders to place them into. Spending lots of money on ink and heavy test paper just to play a game that should have never died in the first place?
For those who are about to be bit by the RPG marketing bug for the first time, just know that this is the norm, and will not get any better. Each version that comes out will either get people on board, or push them away entirely. This is the way of things, there's nothing you can do but watch how things play out.
The rulebooks for PF1 will remain in print via the pocket editions for as long as it's financially viable to keep printing them.
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The rulebooks for PF1 will remain in print via the pocket editions for as long as it's financially viable to keep printing them.They won’t print more, they’ll just keep selling the ones that are already printed in the warehouse
They have said they will print more (of the pocket editions). This is only useful in regard to the core rules line, but it’s something.
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I would be surprised to see any 1E product to be actually printed after 2E. As pocket editions continue to move down the product line and away from the CRB, I would expect their sales to diminish just like the original making investing in more 1E product unlikely. The project would have to be very profitable for them to invest in a system they no longer produce and which is in direct competition to the new game. But, I guess we’ll see
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Mmmmm. On the one hand, I'd like to point out that the topic magnuskn is talking about is specifically rules-based. As in, how the specific rules interact with the story relative to the old specific rules. You can't be focused too much on the rules when you're talking about the rules.
...
In closing, yes, I agree that there's absolutely a gargantuan style difference in PF2 spells that have to change the feel of magic on Golarion, based on what we've been shown so far. Maybe James has seen something different. Dunno. But beyond incredibly dampened feel, I suspect he's very right that the spirit of most stories - not the literal word of them - could be told with PF2. Runelords in PF2? Well, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Doesn't matter than in the previous edition everyone was a beholder. << Sorry for the edition-crossing monster reference.
Yes, he's talking about rules. But he's saying you can't run the world and the stories with those rules. I say balderdash. I could run any AP in existence using 13th Age, Swords and Wizardry, 4th Edition D&D, Savage Worlds, Fate, Rolemaster, Warhammer FRP, Palladium Fantasy, Fantasy Age, GURPS, or just about any other fantasy RPG available. Some would take more work than others, but as long as characters can use magic, you can make it work.
As it is, what the PCs have access to in PF1 varies greatly based on the classes they choose. If your primary spellcasters are an oracle and a summoner your tools to solve problems are going to be very different than a bard and a cleric. The APs never assume the PCs have any particular solution to a problem, unless its in the form of a magic item they definitely receive along the way.
Anyway, as far as the playtest goes, my experience from the first playtest is they test out the limits of how far they can push changes, and they will scale back and be more conservative when it comes to the final product.
I am planning on dropping my Subscription and walking away once PF1E is history. I think I shall like playing 1E without wondering what is coming next (I love what all the Player Companions have added! Favorite books of all of Pathfinder). I have quite the library with which I shall be content.
PF2E is definitely not for me. I enjoy the unique spell lists of 1E too much to like the idea of condensing and simplifying...not to mention nerfing. Ick.
But hey, the rest of you carry on the way you like.
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I would be surprised to see any 1E product to be actually printed after 2E. As pocket editions continue to move down the product line and away from the CRB, I would expect their sales to diminish just like the original making investing in more 1E product unlikely. The project would have to be very profitable for them to invest in a system they no longer produce and which is in direct competition to the new game. But, I guess we’ll see
Regarding PF1 print products (from the Pathfinder Playtest FAQ)
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Regarding PF1 print products
There is a difference between printing books and keeping them in print. While they are certainly not going to suddenly throw all the 1E materials in the trash like most publishers essentially do when a new edition is released, I am not convinced that they will order fresh printings of 1E books after 2E is released. IMO, their commentary is just to affirm that they will continue to sell the 1E books which is rarely done by a publisher who wants to "push" the new product. They already rarely reprint material except in the case of popular hard-covers and even then in significantly reduced quantities from the original order and that's for books for a fully-supported edition. I will be quite surprised if they actually print much if anything of 1E after 2E launches, but as JJ said, "we'll see"
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It's the ones who used to play but don't any more
This is the metric that interests me the most. We know we have lost a not-insignificant number of players due to rules bloat or exhaustion with the system. Some of them took up 5E. Some of them went to home games with limited rules. Some just quit. I wish there was a way to accurately measure how many come back with the release of 2E.
Regarding PF1 print productsThere is a difference between printing books and keeping them in print. While they are certainly not going to suddenly throw all the 1E materials in the trash like most publishers essentially do when a new edition is released, I am not convinced that they will order fresh printings of 1E books after 2E is released. IMO, their commentary is just to affirm that they will continue to sell the 1E books which is rarely done by a publisher who wants to "push" the new product. They already rarely reprint material except in the case of popular hard-covers and even then in significantly reduced quantities from the original order and that's for books for a fully-supported edition. I will be quite surprised if they actually print much if anything of 1E after 2E launches, but as JJ said, "we'll see"
Lisa Stevens commented here. I didn’t take her comment the way you say.
If you read the FAQ, you will notice that we plan to keep Pathfinder 1st edition in print through our pocket editions until there is no longer enough sales to justify them. If they last another ten year, then cool! No need for a 3PP. We are already going to do it.
-Lisa
She didn’t say forever but it seems to me that, as long as they’re still selling, Paizo will keep printing them.
Do people really watch these in significant numbers?
Strange.