Which class would you say is more useful to a team?: Sacred Fist or Unchanined Quiggong Monk?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Silver Crusade

At first i thought this was pretty clear cut, one has magic and the other doesn't case closed right? Well the more i compared the 2 the less it became clear cut, Because it became clear that the sacred fist needs divine favor and divine power just to keep up with the unchained monk in terms of BAB. Not to mention the amount of styles you have access to is limited since sacred fist doesn't have stunning fist naturally. Ad that to the fact that most of the sacred fists best spells are buffs anyway. And suddenly these 2 look rather comparable, in fact i've felt before that sacred fist is a straight downgrade to an unarmed warpriest.

But what do you guys think?


it has been mantioned before tht normal warpriest with a diety who's fv weapon is unarmed strike (or one who took improved unarmed strike feat and used the class's weapon focus for unarmed strike) is far better then the sacred fist archtype.

also side note, any unchained monk is also a quiggong monk as one of the powers unchained monk can take is quigong monk abilities.

for a beenfit to a team i would go with warpriest as bringing better overall benefits (among other, blessings, spells. also good alingment for healing, evil for undead\dahmpir healing). and monk for better dps\comando\survival. it all depand what the team lack.


A quinggong monk is an archetype of the chained monk. The unchained monk cannot take the quinggong archetype, although many of the abilities of the unchained monk mirror the quinggong abilities.

The Sacred Fist is an archetype of the warpriest.

I think the Sacred Fist warpriest is more useful to the party because of the ability to cast divine spells. The sacred Fist warpriest may not be quite as an effective combatant as the unchained monk, especially without the time to buff, but the support capabilities are more valuable to the party, especially if the party is heavy on other martial.

As always, party composition dictates the usefulness of another character.


Quiggong pairs really well with Sensei monk as well.

At 12th level, you can cast Restoration on the entire party for 2 ki points. When I played one I actually served as the primary healer for the party with just advice and ki points. It was expensive to heal one person by a lot of hit points, but it was cheap to heal everyone. Someone with a wand is still very useful to save you some ki points, but with a Sensei build, you typically pump Wisdom pretty hard, and Extra Ki is a feat you might end up with more than once.

My melee was lackluster. Without flurry, you only get a couple relevant attacks, ever. Your damage is pretty meh. I had a very, very good AC though, which meant it was my job to just keep providing flanking for whoever needed it, or provide body blocking for squishy spell casters. If I won initiative, I'd run right up to an enemy to prevent it from charging anyone.

It's still a pretty limited character in a lot of ways, but it breaks a few rules in really cool ways without being overpowered.

Silver Crusade

Irontruth wrote:

Quiggong pairs really well with Sensei monk as well.

At 12th level, you can cast Restoration on the entire party for 2 ki points. When I played one I actually served as the primary healer for the party with just advice and ki points. It was expensive to heal one person by a lot of hit points, but it was cheap to heal everyone. Someone with a wand is still very useful to save you some ki points, but with a Sensei build, you typically pump Wisdom pretty hard, and Extra Ki is a feat you might end up with more than once.

My melee was lackluster. Without flurry, you only get a couple relevant attacks, ever. Your damage is pretty meh. I had a very, very good AC though, which meant it was my job to just keep providing flanking for whoever needed it, or provide body blocking for squishy spell casters. If I won initiative, I'd run right up to an enemy to prevent it from charging anyone.

It's still a pretty limited character in a lot of ways, but it breaks a few rules in really cool ways without being overpowered.

Well my idea would fall more along the lines of being a mundane healer who primarily heals outside of battle, with an emphasis in mantis style to kind of signify their knowledge of biology and anatomy.


Using the Sensei to heal is largely an out of combat thing. Wholeness of Body is a standard action, and it only heals 1 hp/level. It really isn't even that viable for out of combat healing for a party until 12th level, where it becomes a poor mans Cleric Channeling (channeling would average about double the healing, and is AOE from level 1).

If you have a giant ki pool, you can be effective, but you need to have a giant ki pool to do it. Healing the party after every fight easily took 10-12 ki. It's good supplemental out of combat healing, but quickly depleted if you lean on it heavily.

You can also do some really interesting stuff. Like at level 10, even though the Sensei doesn't have Fast Movement, you can spend a ki point to grant it to an ally for one round, so if you have a slow plate wearer, you make them fast for 1 round.

If you take the Quiggong ability, you can grant True Strike to all allies within 30 ft for 1 ki point (though it expires at the start of your next turn).

You can even use Abundant Step on your whole party for 2 ki, though if leaves you behind.

Basically you can grant any of the Monk utility class abilities to your party members.

But, all of that said, if you want a Monk who punches people hard, the Sensei is not the build for that since you lose Flurry of Blows. Your Stunning Fist DC will remain high though.


In the end, as usual, it depends on what you want.

You can't beat a prepared caster when it comes to versatility. There's plenty of situations where Warpriest can help, while Monk can't (condition removal from allies, for instance).
On the other hand, unMonk does more damage, can turn ethereal (fly, turn invisible, and walk through walls) at 4th level (Empty Body ki power), can alternatively Air Walk at 4th level with the right archetype, and is even better at removing conditions from themself due to free Restoration (via Qinggong Power) at 8th level.
The biggest difference in combat though is probably the fact that Sacred Fist (or regular Warpriest) has to wait until 12th level to get pounce.

Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
Not to mention the amount of styles you have access to is limited since sacred fist doesn't have stunning fist naturally.

That's actually pretty irrelevant because you need Pummeling Charge anyway. Unarmed unMonk doesn't actually gain that much a bonus from using a style chain (see my comparison), so just taking a bunch of non-style feats (plus Jabbing Style without the followups, which stacks with other styles) provides almost the same gain.

If you want relatively mundane healing, check out the Healer's Hands feat, possibly combined with the Signature Skill (Heal) feat.

@Irontruth: Well, Sensei is normally combined with Drunken Master to provide the necessary ki. Alternatively, there's still the Ki Leech Qinggong Power aviable at 11th level for de facto infinite ki.


It depends on the nature of the team and the particular builds of those archetypes.

If you are asking which would most likely be the better at just DPR, I'd guess the Monk will come out ahead. It would be closer if you just went with Warpriest and dropped the sacred fist archetype.


I would say sacred fist with a 2 level dip into master of many styles for the ability to use 2 styles and evasion and see if you can stack master of many styles with an archetype that trades out monk ac.


Don't do Sacred Fist at all, and just play an unarmed warpriest. The sacred fist archetype is pretty terrible, there's really no reason to use it.

Honestly, an Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest is going to probably be your best bet, because getting Fighter's Weapon training is pretty awesome.


Claxon wrote:

Don't do Sacred Fist at all, and just play an unarmed warpriest. The sacred fist archetype is pretty terrible, there's really no reason to use it.

Honestly, an Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest is going to probably be your best bet, because getting Fighter's Weapon training is pretty awesome.

On the contrary sacred fist is pretty awesome only down side is it's flurry isn't as good.


Why not a normal monk? Drunken and Quiggon. The build is a melee until 4th level where it becomes a blaster class. Unfortunately your blaster power caps out at 12d6 but you can pull from 4 energy types and release a blast every round. Also your AC and saves are amazing. You are not a boss killer, but any fight where you can freely use AoE will let you shine.

Just carry a huge amount of booze, cuz you need it.


Sacred Fist is a powerful class for using Flurry of Blows with a two-handed weapon, but it's ironically lousy with unarmed strike - especially compared to Warpriest.

Warpriest spellcasting is typically pretty "selfish" and focused on buffing. But you *can* create an effective Sacred Fist or Warpriest with high WIS and spells like Archon's Aura and Aura of Doom to debuff the battlefield.

Edit: Sacred Fist with high WIS is also very good with Channel Energy, Channel Smite and Variant Channeling. And can use one-class Crusader's Flurry.

So for instance, a Sacred Fist of Magdh could pick up Crusader's Flurry with a scythe, and use Negative Energy Luck Channel with Channel Smite to slap targets with a nasty penalty to all d20 rolls before going scythe-flurry on them. Combo that with maybe Persistent Archon's Aura or Persistent Aura of Doom, and you've got a debuff-and-destroy monster.


Meirril wrote:
Why not a normal monk? Drunken and Quiggon. The build is a melee until 4th level where it becomes a blaster class.

Unless I'm missing something, you're stuck with Scorching Ray until 12th level.


doomman47 wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Don't do Sacred Fist at all, and just play an unarmed warpriest. The sacred fist archetype is pretty terrible, there's really no reason to use it.

Honestly, an Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest is going to probably be your best bet, because getting Fighter's Weapon training is pretty awesome.

On the contrary sacred fist is pretty awesome only down side is it's flurry isn't as good.

Lets break it down:

AC Bonus - Needed just to make up for losing access to armor. Also loses out on access to brawling enchant. Bad for unarmed builds.
Flurry of Blows - Doesn't get to use level as BAB. It's bad. It's basically Two Weapon Fighting feats for free.
Unarmed Strike Damage bonus - If the warpriest has weapon focus unarmed or chooses a deity which has unarmed strikes as favorite weapon you get almost the same damage progression. Minor bonus as warpriests can make up damage in much better ways.
Blessed Fortitude - Good
Bonus Style Feats - Meh. It replaces your regular bonus feats. Slight benefit of using your level as a monk level to qualify for feats.
Ki pool - Pretty good. Although it replaces sacred armor, which while not flashy is also pretty good.
Miraculous Fortitude - Good

Sacred Fist gives you some okay to good defensive abilities, but doesn't really do anything for offense. It's also laughable in that it's better at being an armed combatant than unarmed, and a base warpriest can be a better unarmed combatant with armor.


Claxon wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Don't do Sacred Fist at all, and just play an unarmed warpriest. The sacred fist archetype is pretty terrible, there's really no reason to use it.

Honestly, an Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest is going to probably be your best bet, because getting Fighter's Weapon training is pretty awesome.

On the contrary sacred fist is pretty awesome only down side is it's flurry isn't as good.

Lets break it down:

AC Bonus - Needed just to make up for losing access to armor. Also loses out on access to brawling enchant. Bad for unarmed builds.
Flurry of Blows - Doesn't get to use level as BAB. It's bad. It's basically Two Weapon Fighting feats for free.
Unarmed Strike Damage bonus - If the warpriest has weapon focus unarmed or chooses a deity which has unarmed strikes as favorite weapon you get almost the same damage progression. Minor bonus as warpriests can make up damage in much better ways.
Blessed Fortitude - Good
Bonus Style Feats - Meh. It replaces your regular bonus feats. Slight benefit of using your level as a monk level to qualify for feats.
Ki pool - Pretty good. Although it replaces sacred armor, which while not flashy is also pretty good.
Miraculous Fortitude - Good

Sacred Fist gives you some okay to good defensive abilities, but doesn't really do anything for offense. It's also laughable in that it's better at being an armed combatant than unarmed, and a base warpriest can be a better unarmed combatant with armor.

Combine it with just 2 levels of master of many styles monk and your sacred fist goes from being ok at unarmed strikes to being so much better, use pummeling style and dragon style for pounce and a lot more unarmed damage take magical knack to shore up the loss of caster level and you are pretty much golden. Also the loss of armor means you save money on needing to buy it in the 1st place so you can use that for something like an amulet of mighty fists or a head band of wisdom.


Derklord wrote:
Meirril wrote:
Why not a normal monk? Drunken and Quiggon. The build is a melee until 4th level where it becomes a blaster class.
Unless I'm missing something, you're stuck with Scorching Ray until 12th level.

You pick up Dragon Breath at 8th and never look back.

It is a bit confusing that you get new abilities at 8th and 10th level but no powers to replace until 11th. Shouldn't the new powers come when you get an ability to replace? But if you look at 6th, 8th and 10th level as a monk the Slow Fall ability improves at those levels. Is it reasonable to assume you get additional Quiggon Powers at those levels in place of the improvements for a power you've already traded in for a power? I'm not sure, but it seems likely considering that you're offered new powers at that level.

Anyone know for sure?

Anyways, even if you don't get a new power at 8th you retrain your 7th level ability to Dragon's Breath when you reach 8th.


doomman47 wrote:
Combine it with just 2 levels of master of many styles monk and your sacred fist goes from being ok at unarmed strikes to being so much better, use pummeling style and dragon style for pounce and a lot more unarmed damage take magical knack to shore up the loss of caster level and you are pretty much golden. Also the loss of armor means you save money on needing to buy it in the 1st place so you can use that for something like an amulet of mighty fists or a head band of wisdom.

Pummeling style is available to a regular warpriest, and dragon style isn't really as necessary since you'll have good damage on your own.

And a regular warpriest could dip master of many style as well if they were really worried about styles.

And "losing" armor is not a benefit. Armor is cheap. And monks still need to buy bracers of armor, which are more expensive for an equal bonus.


Meirril wrote:
You pick up Dragon Breath at 8th and never look back.

There's a list of abilites that can be replaced by Qinggong Powers, the first one where you qualify for 8th level Qinggong Powers is Diamond Body at 11th level, but that's replaced by Drunken Master, so the next one you can actually replace is Abundant Step at 12th level. Slow Fall is one single ability, otherwise the list of abilities that can be replaced would list every instance seperately.

You can only retrain class features from a very limited list, for Monk, that's only the bonus feats.

doomman47 wrote:
Combine it with just 2 levels of master of many styles monk and your sacred fist goes from being ok at unarmed strikes to being so much better

Not really. Dragon Style isn't actually that good - it's generally below Weapon Specialization when it comes to damage-per-feat. I also think everything that delays Pummeling Charge is generally bad.


Again, Arsenal Chaplain is the real hero because you can buy back damage dice increases as well as getting things like:

Quote:
Warrior Spirit (Su) The fighter can forge a spiritual bond with a weapon that belongs to the associated weapon group, allowing him to unlock the weapon’s potential. Each day, he designates one such weapon and gains a number of points of spiritual energy equal to 1 + his weapon training bonus. While wielding this weapon, he can spend 1 point of spiritual energy to grant the weapon an enhancement bonus equal to his weapon training bonus. Enhancement bonuses gained by this advanced weapon training option stack with those of the weapon, to a maximum of +5. The fighter can also imbue the weapon with any one weapon special ability with an equivalent enhancement bonus less than or equal to his maximum bonus by reducing the granted enhancement bonus by the amount of the equivalent enhancement bonus. The item must have an enhancement bonus of at least +1 (from the item itself or from warrior spirit) to gain a weapon special ability. In either case, these bonuses last for 1 minute.

Heck, if you wanted to go dex focused character it's an option with:

Quote:
Trained Grace (Ex) When the fighter uses Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with a weapon, using his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls and his Strength modifier on damage rolls, he doubles his weapon training bonus on damage rolls. The fighter must have Weapon Finesse in order to choose this option.

Which can make a +5 bonus into a +10. Which is pretty huge.

A dex based, light armor wearing wapriest with brawling armor and trained grace will really pack a wallop.


You are both missing the main draw to dragon style, the ability to charge over terrain, and threw allied squares couple this with pummeling style's pummeling charge and you are nearly guaranteed a full attack every round of combat.

And losing armor is still a benefit its less weight on the character so less encumbrance worries and over all a net positive till higher levels because you can just have the wizard cast mage armor on you, also armor is not cheap, a mithril breast plate in and of itself is over 4k gold then you still have to pay to enchant it and will likely not give out more ac than the monk/sacred fist ac bonus unless you are using some abysmal stat generation.


Claxon wrote:


Heck, if you wanted to go dex focused character it's an option with:
Quote:
Trained Grace (Ex) When the fighter uses Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with a weapon, using his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls and his Strength modifier on damage rolls, he doubles his weapon training bonus on damage rolls. The fighter must have Weapon Finesse in order to choose this option.

Which can make a +5 bonus into a +10. Which is pretty huge.

A dex based, light armor wearing wapriest with brawling armor and trained grace will really pack a wallop.

Why do people like Trained Grace? You get double the Weapon Training Bonus. Sure, that's great. But the cost is you need to keep your Strength and Dexterity even-ish or you are just wasting your potential.

If the gap between your Str and Dex mod is more than your Weapon Training, you would be better off pouring all of your efforts into one stat and using the Advanced Weapon Training to get something else you could use instead. Take enough of a dip to get Dex to damage, it will pay off better in the long run.


Pairs of featherstep slippers (really cheap) can allow you to charge through difficult terrain.

And no, losing armor is not a benefit.

I ran the math before on Trained Grace, admittedly it was for thrown weapons and not unarmed strikes but it should work out basically the same. And the result was that at low levels it was better to have dex to damage, at higher levels trained grace was actually better, because your strength to damage + double weapon training damage bonus was more than your dex modifier.


Claxon wrote:

Pairs of featherstep slippers (really cheap) can allow you to charge through difficult terrain.

And no, losing armor is not a benefit.

The slippers are once per day and do not allow charging threw allied squares, and yes not needing armor is a boon.


Not needing armour is arguably helpful. Being unable to use armour is not.


Exactly Sideromancer.

The existence of the brawling enchant means a +2 to attack and damage that monks and sacred fists cannot get.

And the main advantage of the unarmored bonus, not spending gold, is mitigated by needing to spend gold on bracers of armors once your benefit would get above a +4. And also presumes you have someone in the party that can reliably use a wand of mage armor (which isn't necessarily a good assumption).

And the slippers being once per day isn't really a big problem. You change out slippers between combat. By mid levels it's really cheap.

Also, I've played pouncing barbarians and pummeling monks and never really had a problem with not being able to find a charging lane, even without dragon style. You might not be able to charge the target you want to the most, but you can usually charge someone.

And if you can assume someone can give you mage armor, then I feel like someone can assume a party member to cast feather step on them, meaning no need for the slippers.

Edit:

To get closer to the OPs original question , definitely be a warpriest over a monk. The cleric spell list is good, and having an additional spell caster on the team is always a boon.

As to what kind of war priest you'll ultimately have to decide on your own.

Another edit:
Just want to mention that a Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest can get +12 damage (and +7 to attack) just from brawling armor, weapon training, and trained grace. They might be a little behind on damage at first because their strength will be lower than dex to damage build or a full strength build, but divine favor helps to shore that up.


You are over hyping the brawler enchant, plus you can enchant clothing so you can get a +2 shirt of moderate fortification(fortification is much better than a +2 to hit and dmg) or even a magic tattoo, over a +2 brawling armor. While it's nice for builds who put more emphasis on defensive stats one who is focusing on offence shouldn't miss not having it.


Meirril wrote:

Why do people like Trained Grace? You get double the Weapon Training Bonus. Sure, that's great. But the cost is you need to keep your Strength and Dexterity even-ish or you are just wasting your potential.

If the gap between your Str and Dex mod is more than your Weapon Training, you would be better off pouring all of your efforts into one stat and using the Advanced Weapon Training to get something else you could use instead. Take enough of a dip to get Dex to damage, it will pay off better in the long run.

The "Grace" feats severely restrict combat style. Agile weapons cost attack and/or damage and DR break, and relying on a weapon property to not suck is a gamble (and kind of sad). A 3-level Rogue dip is a massive expense, and out of the question for many builds. If a build *can* take a major dip, there may be better options than Rogue.

By the time a Fighter can afford Gloves of Dueling, Trained Grace is probably a +4 damage bonus. It's a +6 bonus on a level 15 Weapon Master. Even on a multiclass build with only Weapon Master 4, it's eventually worth +3 to damage.

Trained Grace isn't *always* the best option, but there are plenty of cases where it is.

Sovereign Court

Its a shame Brawling got errata-ed into a +3 enchantment from +1. Even at +1 too few characters found it useful enough take it.

If we're talking dipping purely for damage, going to plug Medium 1 again with Spirit Focus (Champion) and the Spirit-Bonded armor enchant (+6000 gp, medium armor only) for +3 to hit and +5 to damage.


doomman47 wrote:
You are over hyping the brawler enchant, plus you can enchant clothing so you can get a +2 shirt of moderate fortification(fortification is much better than a +2 to hit and dmg) or even a magic tattoo, over a +2 brawling armor. While it's nice for builds who put more emphasis on defensive stats one who is focusing on offence shouldn't miss not having it.

+2 to attack and damage is pretty awesome. Though I had forgotten about the price being changed from a +1 to a +3. That does actually put it on the bad end of the spectrum by itself.

That being said, you can't compare bonuses to attack and damage to a defensive bonus. They're simply two very different kinds of things. Depending on your build, you're going to favor one vs the other. A 50% chance to negate crits is cool, but I still generally value offensive output much higher.

Also, I'm not sure you can enchant clothing. As far as I recall, there are no general rules for doing so. There are rules for armor, not clothing. You can enchant bracers of armor, but they are more expensive.

Also magical tattoos have specific rules, an important one being is that they count as slotless making them cost double.


Isn't this kinda like asking "which is better, a fighter or wizard?"


I think most people are in agreement that Warpriest is better, I think it's just a question of which build.


Bracers of Armor don't cost any more than enchanting armor, though nothing but light armor can carry Brawling anyhow.

Unchained Monk multiclassed with Cleric might give Warpriest a strong challenge, since Monk/Cleric has some very powerful synergy options. A Monk/Cleric1 can pick up strong Domain options, Guided Hand, and/or Crusader's Flurry. A Cleric/Monk1 is a full spellcaster with most of the Unchained Monk's defining combat features. Even a Cleric dipping enough Unchained Monk to get a Ki Pool will end up a 9th level caster.


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BadBird wrote:
Bracers of Armor don't cost any more than enchanting armor, though nothing but light armor can carry Brawling anyhow.

Technically true, practically false. Magical armor starts at granting +2 AC for as low as 1,153 gp, while +2 AC bracers cost 4k. A +1 brawling mithral shirt costs 17,100 gp for +5 AC, that's still less expensive than +5 Bracers of Armor (which cost 25,000 gp).

BadBird wrote:
A Cleric/Monk1 is a full spellcaster with most of the Unchained Monk's defining combat features.

Except you don't have pseudo-pounce (and significantly fewer attacks). Warpriest can at least take Pummeling Charge at 12th level, M1/Cx has to wait until 17th level to get it.


Yeah, I was talking about total armor bonus provided, not pure enhancement bonus cost.


Derklord wrote:
BadBird wrote:
Bracers of Armor don't cost any more than enchanting armor, though nothing but light armor can carry Brawling anyhow.
Technically true, practically false. Magical armor starts at granting +2 AC for as low as 1,153 gp, while +2 AC bracers cost 4k. A +1 brawling mithral shirt costs 17,100 gp for +5 AC, that's still less expensive than +5 Bracers of Armor (which cost 25,000 gp).

If placed on a class that gets an ac boost for not wearing armor the bracers pull ahead in a land slide that +1 mithril chain shirt will look pretty useless when the monk(or sacred fist) with a 20 wisdom and 8ish levels(probably the earliest one could get away with spending over 16k on an item) the monk will then have 7 ac from their class and 4 from the bracers for a total of 11 plus whatever their dex is, were the other character wearing the +1 chain shirt will have only 5 plus their dex.


Derklord wrote:
BadBird wrote:
Bracers of Armor don't cost any more than enchanting armor, though nothing but light armor can carry Brawling anyhow.
Technically true, practically false. Magical armor starts at granting +2 AC for as low as 1,153 gp, while +2 AC bracers cost 4k. A +1 brawling mithral shirt costs 17,100 gp for +5 AC, that's still less expensive than +5 Bracers of Armor (which cost 25,000 gp).

It's not at all 'practically false' for characters who can't wear armor, and I don't know what other characters it would really apply to. A character with a 6-point Monk AC bonus pays the exact same for "armor enhancement" as a character wearing a breastplate, with the same end result in AC. Of course, plenty of spells or abilities provide nice magical armor effects for free anyways.

Derklord wrote:
BadBird wrote:
A Cleric/Monk1 is a full spellcaster with most of the Unchained Monk's defining combat features.
Except you don't have pseudo-pounce (and significantly fewer attacks). Warpriest can at least take Pummeling Charge at 12th level, M1/Cx has to wait until 17th level to get it.

There's a reason I said "most defining features", and not "everything".

Cleric/Monk1 gets the most important bonus attack, WIS AC, Stunning Fist, and Monk IUS (though unarmed is typically very inferior with one Monk level). Then beyond that, they get the whole enormous range of Cleric options, including a whole pile of direct and indirect buffing/debuffing spells and abilities. Normal Cleric buffs are very strong, but the list of options also includes things like Rage (Rage Domain or Anger Inquisition), Heroism/Greater (Heroism Domain), and Inspire Courage (Evangelist Cleric). Also, Dimension Door (Travel Domain) and Dimensional Dervish is a possibility long before Pummeling Style. Or instead of pseudo-pounce, they could make do with Spell Perfection Quickened Harm and one execution strike. Cleric/Monk rewards system mastery.


BadBird wrote:
A character with a 6-point Monk AC bonus pays the exact same for "armor enhancement" as a character wearing a breastplate, with the same end result in AC.

For some reason, I didn't properly think about that. I concede the point.

BadBird wrote:
Cleric/Monk1 gets the most important bonus attack, WIS AC, Stunning Fist, and Monk IUS (though unarmed is typically very inferior with one Monk level).

One out of three bonus attacks (plus later/fewer iteratives), Stunning Fist isn't anything near a "defining combat feature", and unarmed would lack quite a lot. Wis-to-AC is not really a boon unless you play with super high rolls or point buy, or focus on Guided Hand (you need to start with more than 16 or invest pips to get more AC than a mere breastplate offers).

BadBird wrote:
Then beyond that, they get the whole enormous range of Cleric options, including a whole pile of direct and indirect buffing/debuffing spells and abilities.

I didn't say it was weak! Don't get me wrong, overall, it's a way stronger character, but I say it plays closer to regular combat Cleric than unMonk.

Cleric is more stationary, and more reliant on buffs being active. unMonk is more agile and doesn't need preperation time. Even though they don't even come close to the versatility of spells, don't underestimate ki powers! Seriously, turning ethereal at 4th level is just hardcore.

­
In the end, it is what it is - unMonk is tier 4, Warpriest is tier 3, Cleric is tier 1. What's best for the team depends on the team, but basically, you can never have too many casters. What results in the most fun is, as always, subjective.

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