On the mechanics of the big boss of Part #7: When the Stars Go Dark [spoilers]

[Colette Brunel]

No, not Ramlock. The much more insidious big boss, the weak-templated (as of update 1.5) star-spawn of Cthulhu.

First of all, how does its Greater Constrict actually work?

Greater Constrict says:

Quote:

The monster automatically deals the listed amount of damage to a creature grabbed or restrained by it, and the creature must attempt a Fortitude save at the listed DC or fall unconscious. A creature that succeeds at its save is bolstered against falling unconscious in this way.

What is the duration for the unconsciousness? Is it indefinite?

The unconscious condition, as of update 1.5, says:

Quote:

When you’re reduced to 0 Hit Points, you fall unconscious. You lose any remaining actions and reactions, and while unconscious, you don’t regain your actions and reaction each turn. If you return to consciousness, you’ll need to wait until the start of your turn to get your actions and reaction again.

If you return to 1 Hit Point or more, you become conscious. If you had the dying condition, you might become wounded, as described in the dying condition.

When you’re unconscious and at 0 HP but no longer dying, you naturally return to 1 HP and awaken after sufficient time passes. The GM determines how long you remain unconscious, from at least 10 minutes to several hours.

How does this interact with the unconsciousness from Greater Constrict?

Similarly, how does its Overwhelming Mind actually work?

Quote:

Reaction: Overwhelming Mind (mental)

Trigger: The star-spawn of Cthulhu makes mental contact with a creature either using its own abilities (including telepathy) or the creature’s divination or mental effect.

Effect: The creature must succeed at a DC 40 (38 for weak template) Will save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. On a success, the creature is slowed 1 for 1 round; on a critical success, the creature is unaffected; on a critical failure, the creature is stunned for 1d4 rounds and permanently confused, as per the effects of a critical failure when casting warp mind. Regardless of the save result, the creature becomes bolstered.

Telepathy does not take an action, so is this supposed to be a combat-opener that takes only a reaction? Is this supposed to be similar to a mummy's despair aura?

I cannot imagine this battle ending well for the PCs. The weak star-spawn appears without warning, giving the PCs no time to buff. It has an impressive Perception +33, and even if it flubs that roll, the weak star-spawn will open combat with Frightful Presence and Overwhelming Mind. That could very well take one or two PCs out of the fight for 1d4 rounds, which may damn the party.

A 17th-level character with expert Will probably has a Will saving throw of 17 level + 1 expert proficiency + 4 Wisdom modifier + 4 item from armor = +26, against a DC 38 effect. That saving throw may have been debuffed beforehand by the Ashen Man's frighten 1, or the star-spawn's own Frightful Presence. 2 Hero Points can reroll that, true, but there is still a good chance for that to go awry.

On top of that, its Mental Dominance aura (DC 34 Will) could very well cause various spells to fizzle in an untimely manner.

[Mary Yamato]

On page 324 there are rules for the Unconscious condition. They specify that you make a recovery roll each turn using the rules on p. 295. Unfortunately this points at dying rules which have been revised out from under it, and have no apparent conception of being Unconscious but not at 0 HP.

I can see several possible rulings:

(1) Since the current rules have no concept of unconscious but not at 0 HP, the character who fails this save drops to 0 HP. There are no more rules problems, but this is probably more lethal than intended.

(2) Recovery rolls are still appropriate despite the revision of the dying rules. One could use the version 1 recovery rolls. As those rules have been superseded, this is questionably correct, but it is fairly straightforward otherwise.

(3) As the current rules have no concept of unconscious but not at 0 HP, the character regains consciousness. When? Having them do so immediately seems at first to negate the ability, but since falling unconscious causes you to drop what you are holding and fall prone, there would still be consequences. Alternatively the character might regain consciousness on their next turn --beginning? end? The dying rules do not really cover regaining consciousness during your own turn, probably because they assume it is triggered by an ally healing you. I guess a strict reading is that you lose all your actions if you become conscious during your turn, and must wait for your next turn.

(4) Characters can be unconscious at more than 0 HP, and this behaves like being unconscious at 0 HP; there is no recovery roll, and the character recovers spontaneously after an indefinite time. I don't know what happens if the character is healed. Perhaps any HP healing would wake them. This is just a mess.

I would probably go with option (2) myself, but I make no claim that this is supported by the current rules: apparently the current rules are incoherent, as Unconscious has not been updated appropriately to match the new dying rules. (Or if it has, I haven't seen it.) Options (3) and (4) are simply an invitation to more and more rules disputes.

[Fuzzypaws]

As Mary says, I would go with the recovery rolls. It's questionable, but still "technically" correct, since even though the dying rules were revised out of existence and the paragraph on recovery deleted with them, they never errated the page pointer in the unconscious rules. It's also far more favorable to the PC's than the "when the GM feels like it but at least 1 minute" rules for unconsciousness at 0 HP in the current dying rules.

As for the telepathy, yes, since "talking" is a free action, it should basically be opening the combat by telepathically contacting a PC then using its reaction for Overwhelming Mind.

While the starspawn appears immediately after the ashen man disappears, it is climbing out of the pit. As such, I would suggest it takes one round to get into the battlefield and so the PC's should have one round to buff.

[Colette Brunel]

The adventure says, "A moment later, an immense, flabby talon reaches up over the pit as a stumbling mountain of madness crawls up from below."

It seems to me that by the time this happens, the star-spawn has already reached up over the pit, so there is no time for the PCs to buff.

[Fuzzypaws]

Its first hand reaches over the edge of the pit, yes. It takes time to heave the entire rest of its body over the pit, a few seconds (like say.... 6) during which the PCs can act or prepare, unless you GM fiat it into a cutscene which screws the players.

[Colette Brunel]

Once it has its hand out of the pit, does it really need that much more time to get out of said pit given that it has a fly speed of 50 feet?

At best, initiative would be rolled while the star-spawn is in the pit, and it could use a single Fly action to engage the PCs with its 15-foot reach.

[Mudfoot]

The Star-Spawn doesn't know what it's up against until it gets out of the pit, so it should certainly have to take a moment to adjust. It might be a bit surprised by having been gated in from wherever, no matter that it immediately assigns blame to the PCs. So even if the PCs don't get a round to buff, the SS should take an action or two to look around.

So the flabby talon emerges from the pit, alerting the PCs (roll for initiative). On the SS's turn it a) crawls as indicated (Stride action), b) has a look round (Seek action), does something (Fly action?)

[Colette Brunel]

On the contrary, "This star-spawn of Cthulhu knows little of how it came to be in Ramlock’s Hallow other than that the PCs are the cause, and it attacks at once, fighting them to the death."

The star-spawn is specifically stipulated to attack at once and fight to the death.

[Mudfoot]

That's a rather extreme interpretation of "at once". If I tell my daughter to go to bed "at once" I expect it to take her more than a picosecond to get there. So the SS has to a) crawl out, exactly as per the description, and then work out what PCs there are to attack and begin to do so. Unless they're within range when it emerges, it must use that 3rd action to move. And as it's no idiot (int +6) it probably won't just spend its last action sailing into melee range where the enemy can full-attack it.

[Colette Brunel]

It does not seem unlikely that at least one PC will be within 15 feet of the edge of the pit by the time the star-spawn uses its first action to get out of the pit. After all, the PCs were just talking to the Ashen Man, who was hovering over the center of the pit.

[avr]

It attacks the PCs at once, but probably not before it sees the PCs. 'At once' starting at that point, and not as soon as the PCs see its hand, seems reasonable to me. I don't think that removing all chance of the PCs getting a chance to buff is sensible. Of course, if the PCs attack the hand at once then the star spawn is probably going to react full force immediately.

[Colette Brunel]

I do not see why it is unlikely for the star-spawn to spend its first action flying out of the pit, then use the rest of its actions and reactions to "attack at once." How else is it supposed to "attack at once"?

[DerNils]

Sounds straightforward to me. The Star Spawn is in the Pit, you roll Init. Depending on the Player positioning, it probably still Needs an Action to get out of the Pit, but I would be suprised if it needs more. There is no mention of the Spawn having to gather its wits or anything - it's not like summons have to spend a turn to understand where they are before they act.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Mudfoot wrote:

That's a rather extreme interpretation of "at once". If I tell my daughter to go to bed "at once" I expect it to take her more than a picosecond to get there. So the SS has to a) crawl out, exactly as per the description, and then work out what PCs there are to attack and begin to do so. Unless they're within range when it emerges, it must use that 3rd action to move. And as it's no idiot (int +6) it probably won't just spend its last action sailing into melee range where the enemy can full-attack it.

If my parents had told me to go to bed "at once" and I'd just stood around for a while doing nothing, I would have caught an earful. I did just for dragging my feet even. Monster spawns and admires the flowers for a round sure doesn't sound like "at once".

[MaxAstro]

Have to say, I agree with Colette on this one - the text definitely seems to indicate that the Star Spawn attacks as soon as it emerges.

Unless the PCs as a whole are invisible I can't see why it would need to spend an action Seeking.

[HidaOWin]

Nothing in the text about that Star Spawn flying out, start making those climb rolls.

[Colette Brunel]

It can crawl/climb up 5 feet and then fly the rest of the way.

[Colette Brunel]

I may as well post this here, since this is my thread.

First post.
Second post, posted just minutes before this message.

These two posts thoughts contain my thoughts on 2e shortly before and immediately after I ran my 21st and presumably final playthrough of 2e, tackling part #7 of Doomsday Dawn, a process that saw no less than 6 or 7 TPKs. I urge people to read through these, even though my points may not be as cogent or otherwise well-formed as those of the more prominent posters of the 2e playtest forum. I am not claiming to have any great amount of importance here. I am just letting my thoughts be known as someone who ran 2e for a grand total of 21 playthroughs.

[Sara Marie]

I'm going to go ahead and close this thread since as the last post is redirecting towards an ongoing feedback thread.