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On today's Twitch Stream Jason was asked if we'd see "Combat Style" Archetypes in the Playtest. The answer was...probably not. But if we're not going to explore this side of rules further during the playtest I'd at least like to talk about them a lot on the forum. Because I love the Archetype rules and want them to fulfill the potential outlined in the quote below.
If I wanted to, say, create an archetype that was all about fighting with a two handed weapon effectively, I could do so in a way that it packages all the pieces you would need to build that character in one tidy place, one that could then be taken by everyone. The old system allowed us to do this.. kinda, but it was all over the place, and was easily seen as bloat, especially as the years went on.
- Stalwart Defender: If a player wanted to take a dip to gain armor proficiency this should be it...not Paladin.
- Mystical Trickster: Talking about my Saboteur Druid made me realize that playstyle is currently difficult to pull off... Casters in general need access to Silent Spell and subterfuge options, a revamped Arcane Trickster seems like the best launching off point.
- Unarmored Archetype: If a non-monk character wanted to run around without armor on this would help them do that.
- Necromancer: Gives caster access to Create Undead and Control Undead feat/spell. Instead of one action to command one undead, gives one action to command on group of undead?
- Dinosaur Fort: Character wears Dinosaurs instead of armor and becomes a mobile fortress.
- All the Combat Styles: Of course Sword and Shield, Two Weapon, Archery, etc.
- Ranged Hybrid Attacker/Caster: Arcane Archer for all Ranged Attack Types/Magical Traditions.
- Melee Hybrid Attacker/Caster: Essentially the Magus...but for Arcane or Occult casters.
- Tactician/Commander: Take the Samurai/Cavalier ally supporting abilities and roll them into a separate Archetype. I like the idea that any class could take this and have some command skills.
- Healer: Any caster with access to necromancy healing spells can take this to become extremely good at wielding healing magic.
- Summoner: Any caster with a summoning spell known. Gains an Eidolon of their Magical Tradition. Progression improves summoning and Eidolon.
I left the classic Prestige class Shadowdancer off the list...because I think that they'd fit better in a Planar splatbook down the road. A Shadowdancer is a person of any class who has an innate connection to the Shadow Plane?
So... What did I miss that should be in the Core Rulebook? What do you think of my suggestions?
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Those are some pretty cool ideas. Only thing I would add is maybe some sort of Anti-mage caster archetype that specializes in counterspelling and dispelling other magics.
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As someone that played the Warder in Path of War, I'd love to see any defense central class that isn't the Paladin.
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I'd like to see some cool prestige archetypes based off of the old hybrid classes kind of like a specialized multiclass archetype:
Magus for wizard fighter
Skald for bard barbarian
Honk for bard monk
Slayer for Ranger Rogue.
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Honk for bard monk
Are you sure that isn't a Bonk? Or a Mord?
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Honk for bard monkAre you sure that isn't a Bonk? Or a Mord?
I prefer the Bank Archetype personally.
That being said, Jason B. if you're reading this and you have room for another spell/power I really do think Dinosaur Fort has potential and it's all yours. Prestige Class, Archetype, Spell or Magic Item, I don't care. The Cloud Castle and Instant Fortress are both real things, and I don't see why maybe a Witch or Druid shouldn't be able to terrify creatures far and wide with the dreaded Dinosaur Fort.
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I really do think Dinosaur Fort has potential and it's all yours. Prestige Class, Archetype, Spell or Magic Item, I don't care.
This absolutely needs to be in the game in some form. If not officially - I'll have to start looking at 3PP Kickstarters that let backer levels add content.
Stalwart Defender would be a fair archetype, one that would probably require proficiency in an armor of your choice (could even be Unarmored, thereby folding the Unarmored Archetype with it). Feats improve that proficiency and maybe grant some other old-time goodies. It was once a Prestige Class, but kind of pointless when we have Grey Maidens in the book, especially since I don't see much of a difference between a Grey Maiden and a Stalwart Defender mechanically.
Arcane Trickster would probably require the ability to cast Arcane Spells as well as a Sneak Attack feature, and could work as an Archetype. You can probably do a variant here for Arcane Archer as well, though I'm not sure how you'd adjudicate it, given that there isn't anything iconic about them other than they use bows. So maybe require Bow proficiency? Hard to say.
Necromancers, Undead Lords, or what have you might seem like a neat archetype, but I'd prefer them to be a Prestige class that only someone with access to spells like Animate Dead or Control Undead feats (which, by the way, stink a lot) could select. I can say that if a player were to go this route, this archetype/prestige would practically be required to make it work, because much like counterspelling, it sucks nuts.
I will not dignify Dinosaur Fort with a response.
Combat Styles would be more general feats than class feats IMO. I'm not really seeing how those could be archetypes unless there are feats that are iconic to certain classes. At best, you can say things like Duelists/Swashbucklers might be here, but I'd rather see Paizo flesh out some more combat style-oriented general feats, because taking things like Toughness or Fleet all the time is about as boring as taking Power Attack or Improved Initiative in PF1.
Gish Combat Styles are technically already existent in PF2 via multiclassing options (for example, Cleric multiclass Sorcerer is very effective at Gish options). I would like more clarity in how certain things interact (for example, would Channel Smite work with Magical Striker? RAW would suggest no, but if the intent is Channel Smite simply takes an action to Channel Energy into your sword strike, it would count as casting a spell and thereby trigger Magical Striker), but I'm not seeing anything that needs expanding at the moment.
A Tactician archetype would be awesome, and I've GM'd a certain part of Doomsday Dawn where I was able to make abilities of that nature work to great effect; having generalized character options that could contribute in that manner would make Bards have all kinds of options in combat, and even those who don't have much options in combat with something useful to do.
A Healer archetype might sound good, but let's say we have a Positive Channeling Cleric with the Healing Domain, Healing Hands feat, taking the Advanced Domain Power, and is now taking a Healer archetype to be Healy McHealface. Congratulations, unless you instantly take that character (or any character) out of the fight with Save/Lose effects, those characters are never ever going to die, defeating the threat of relevant encounters altogether. Unless we put limitations on this archetype (such as it offering a Channel Energy pool that doesn't stack with existing Channel Energy pools, just for an example), this will only exacerbate the Channel Energy disparity.
Summoner archetype is not much different than having an Animal Companion or Familiar as a Druid, Wizard, and so on. The long and short of it is that they are way too generalized, don't do anything worthwhile, and are largely a waste of feats and class features. And if you make them good, then we're back to PF1 Summoner level brokenness. The point of this new edition is to leave most (if not all) of those issues behind, not bring them back into the fold of the new system.
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I really do think Dinosaur Fort has potential and it's all yours. Prestige Class, Archetype, Spell or Magic Item, I don't care.This absolutely needs to be in the game in some form. If not officially - I'll have to start looking at 3PP Kickstarters that let backer levels add content.
It'll be a (forgotten?) historic landmark that is built largely out of stone and fossils emulating ancient dinosaurs. Maybe it's haunted by the spirits of undead dinosaurs looking to feast upon the living as they did in their existence? The PCs won't know until they are called upon by Dwarven investors looking to build a trade hub to attract tourists, to enter in and cleanse the dig site of the dinosaur ghosts.
..Yeah, I'm trying hard to make it work, but let's be realistic here; Dinosaur Fort just doesn't fit that well thematically in Golarion...
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It'll be a (forgotten?) historic landmark that is built largely out of stone and fossils emulating ancient dinosaurs. Maybe it's haunted by the spirits of undead dinosaurs looking to feast upon the living as they did in their existence? The PCs won't know until they are called upon by Dwarven investors looking to build a trade hub to attract tourists, to enter in and cleanse the dig site of the dinosaur ghosts.
Thank you for reminding me that one of my Shadowrun GMs once ran Jurassic Park but with spirits.
..Yeah, I'm trying hard to make it work, but let's be realistic here; Dinosaur Fort just doesn't fit that well thematically in Golarion...
It's a tongue in cheek reference to the Jason's contribution to the If you could change just 1 character in the Playtest Rules thread.
Seriously considering adding Dinosaur Fort to the game...
Stalwart Defender would be a fair archetype, one that would probably require proficiency in an armor of your choice (could even be Unarmored, thereby folding the Unarmored Archetype with it).
I like that idea.
Feats improve that proficiency and maybe grant some other old-time goodies. It was once a Prestige Class, but kind of pointless when we have Grey Maidens in the book, especially since I don't see much of a difference between a Grey Maiden and a Stalwart Defender mechanically.
Stalwart Defender did have defensive 'Stances' so that could be a distinguishing factor. Alternatively, having a generic version would be good for characters who won't qualify for Grey Maiden.
Arcane Trickster would probably require the ability to cast Arcane Spells as well as a Sneak Attack feature, and could work as an Archetype.
There needs to be an option for all casters to access Still Spell. It doesn't have to be a revamped Arcane Trickster but it needs to exist.
Necromancers, Undead Lords, or what have you might seem like a neat archetype, but I'd prefer them to be a Prestige class that only someone with access to spells like Animate Dead or Control Undead feats (which, by the way, stink a lot) could select. I can say that if a player were to go this route, this archetype/prestige would practically be required to make it work, because much like counterspelling, it sucks nuts.
I agree. This would be better as Prestige.
I will not dignify Dinosaur Fort with a response.
That's fine - it was a joke.
Combat Styles would be more general feats than class feats IMO.
It's not that I disagree with your point... It's that Jason and Mark have both said that they are looking at Archetypes for this function. So I'm adapting to the times.
Gish Combat Styles are technically already existent in PF2 via multiclassing options (for example, Cleric multiclass Sorcerer is very effective at Gish options).
One thing I was wondering is if each Class should include a number of Multiclass Class Feats that grant traditional Gish abilities (rather than needing to take an Archetype).
A Tactician archetype would be awesome, and I've GM'd a certain part of Doomsday Dawn where I was able to make abilities of that nature work to great effect; having generalized character options that could contribute in that manner would make Bards have all kinds of options in combat, and even those who don't have much options in combat with something useful to do.
It wasn't entirely my idea - a couple months ago I saw someone complaining about the Cavalier Prestige not having all their abilities and someone else suggested a Leadership Archetype. Would have linked back to it but couldn't find it.
A Healer archetype might sound good, but let's say we have a Positive Channeling Cleric with the Healing Domain, Healing Hands feat, taking the Advanced Domain Power, and is now taking a Healer archetype to be Healy McHealface. Congratulations, unless you instantly take that character (or any character) out of the fight with Save/Lose effects, those characters are never ever going to die, defeating the threat of relevant encounters altogether. Unless we put limitations on this archetype (such as it offering a Channel Energy pool that doesn't stack with existing Channel Energy pools, just for an example), this will only exacerbate the Channel Energy disparity.
One of my assumptions is that Channel Energy will not stay as is. I'm okay with absurdly powerful healing being restricted to a Dedication/Archetype. It should still be an option...but require enough of an investment that it's not the default. Alternatively, I'd be fine if each 'healing' class got a speciality (e.g. Healing Domain, Life Oracle) which would require adding similar options to some other classes (e.g. Alchemist, Druids, Bards).
Summoner archetype is not much different than having an Animal Companion or Familiar as a Druid, Wizard, and so on. The long and short of it is that they are way too generalized, don't do anything worthwhile, and are largely a waste of feats and class features. And if you make them good, then we're back to PF1 Summoner level brokenness. The point of this new edition is to leave most (if not all) of those issues behind, not bring them back into the fold of the new system.
Even if, say, a caster could specialize as a Summoner and use one action to command a group of summons... I don't think it would amount to the same level of brokenness that we saw previously. The action economy still nerfs them and the command structure would result in 'mob' summons who couldn't pull off complicated tactics. If a goal is 'telling the same stories' I think we'll be seeing the Summoner (and all iconics) return in some form.
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Thank you for reminding me that one of my Shadowrun GMs once ran Jurassic Park but with spirits.
It'll be a (forgotten?) historic landmark that is built largely out of stone and fossils emulating ancient dinosaurs. Maybe it's haunted by the spirits of undead dinosaurs looking to feast upon the living as they did in their existence? The PCs won't know until they are called upon by Dwarven investors looking to build a trade hub to attract tourists, to enter in and cleanse the dig site of the dinosaur ghosts.
Why was I not in this game?
stuff
The problem with having Stances as a feature is that it clashes with Monks who have Styles. I suppose there could be a "Styles and Stances are the same" clause, so we don't have doubling up on that (though it might not be OP depending on what each of them do), but it can create confusion as to what is a style or a stance, and so on. Careful balancing would be required here.
I proposed prior to the release of this game that Still Spell or Silent Spell as feats would remove the relevant actions required, but as a result would be pretty gamebreaking (I mean Quicken Spell levels of gamebreaking; the Shield spell wouldn't even be an action if a relevant spellcaster had Silent Spell as a metamagic feat, as one example). I suppose there could be a basic feature that simply states you don't need to fulfill the requirements of Somatic components for spells (but still need to spend the actions as normal), but I'm not sure of the reasoning behind this request, other than for it to work with dual-weapon wielders, but IMO two-weapon fighting is practically dead in this game; I have yet to see someone use more than one weapon at any given time in combat.
I'm really wondering how they would make them into Archetypes. Like I said prior, maybe something along the lines of Duelist, but the problem I have with that is these aren't things that should solely be tied to Archetypes, they're simply weapon loadout styles; they're throwing too much stuff into Archetypes and/or Class Feats (even if they are the most plentiful) and not enough bones at the General Feats for combat stuff. Fleet and Toughness are boring options that simply inflate numbers because the players feel they are necessary. I dislike that a lot, and would prefer for Fleet to instead be something that allows a Reaction to Step when an enemy attacks, granting a +2 bonus to AC and cutting off further attacks until the requirements for said attacks are met again, as one example. (Toughness I'm not quite sure on.) Feats like Quick Draw, Power Attack, etc. probably shouldn't be class-specific feats (or if they are, should also be general feats too; some classes share the same feats, why can't they share in General feats too?).
Again, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a healer archetype or prestige dedication, the problem I have is, as it stands, one class is way too good at healing (even if it's for all the "right" reasons), and having a healer archetype or prestige dedication won't fix that problem. Channel Energy needs a nerf, or other classes with healing access need a buff of some sort, to compensate for this outrageous healing power. The problem with doing the latter, at that point, is the question of who would take a Healer archetype? Maybe someone who doesn't have the base healing power, perhaps, but there are ways, as they stand, to build to come close to this base healing power (as limited as they are), and now we're back at square 1 with some classes/combinations being extremely more powerful with this archetype compared to those who aren't as much, and the disparity (as evidenced by the Channel Energy issue) becomes that much greater.
Another issue (which was pointed out in PF1 due to some Druid and Summoner archetypes) with going the route of "One Action = Two Actions for Mob" is that the mob of creatures are going to be substantially weaker than the rest, and as the levels increased, that power gap simply increases. It also adds a lot of time that said player takes (or GM, even) for their turn, which hurts the flow of the game, even if they are extremely familiar and aware of what they want their minions to do for that turn. Granted, in this edition, there are ways to cut down on that (such as by having one creature equal to your level, reducing the overall level of creatures by 1 for each additional creature you control), the fact of the matter is that this issue will never completely go away because it's hard-baked into the playstyle. Unless players and GMs want to deal with that (for whatever reason), it won't be a nice addition to most any table or playstyle.
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I don't want combat styles to use up all of your class feats so you always end up being a Fighter regardless of class. They need to be separate somehow.
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Swashbuckler. It's 2018. Dex fighter support from Day One should be obligatory.
Apart from this, it's a little surprising how much the existing rules should cover. A fighter with Monk Dedication makes a great brawler; a wizard with Magical Striker makes a tolerable magus. Most of the largest omissions remaining (for me, the investigator and the witch) clearly need to be their own classes.
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Throwing: just some proficiencies and quick draw, maybe the weak sneak attack or a die size bump.
Archery: bow proficiency, access to a few ranger/fighter feats.
Zealot: Access to the zeal domain, and rage as a spirit barbarian.
Sage: Expand spell access as if you'd taken caster dedication for a different class, but focused on your own class's spells.
Pack Hunter: Second animal companion, channel pool for "heal animal" which gains the aoe effect with the 3 action casting.
Weapon master: use chosen weapon, unarmored and shield at the highest weapon or unarmored proficiency level you have.
And "Dinosaur Fort" is clearly a mobile weapons platform created from an undead dinosaur who has been armor plated and reinforced.
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And "Dinosaur Fort" is clearly a mobile weapons platform created from an undead dinosaur who has been armor plated and reinforced.
Someone really needs to check out Sarrusan already or the world will not be prepared!
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Definitely support including a Stalwart Defender in the CRB. And if Stalwart Defender isn't a prestige archetype, I'd really like to see what would happen by mixing it with some spellcasting classes.
Combat Style archetypes are cool, but might be a tad bloated if we need one for every iconic style that doesn't have universal class support. TWF, Archery, Throwing, Two-Handed Weapons, One-handed Dueling, etc. All would need 3 feats minimum to work as archetypes unless made into dead-end archetypes. I like the idea, but a space concern makes me wonder if it isn't better to collapse some of these into a few broad archetypes to save some room. Or wait on some until splatbooks/APG2.0 come out.
A magician archetype would be neat. Not a spellcaster of a particular sort , but someone with a lot of magical tricks to pull out of a proverbial hat to solve problems. Maybe something focused on cantrips that also grants utility spells or abilities.
A skill-based archetype, where each class feat could be used to expand your character's breadth or focus on skills (perhaps allowing a 1:2 trade of class feats to skill feats, or getting to pick up a skill upgrade in lieu of a class feat) would be nice.
A shapechanger archetype which gives access to shapeshifting abilities for utility and combat would be nice. Like the Dinosaur Fort idea, but for more than mere dinosaurs.
Dinosaur Fort should be a Construct which takes the best parts of that haunted-house looking construct (house colossus? wood colossus?) and the Fossil Golem and combines them together into one monster.
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Hunter.
Give Hunter it's own archetype so it can bother my ranger builds no more.
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And "Dinosaur Fort" is clearly a mobile weapons platform created from an undead dinosaur who has been armor plated and reinforced.
Lately I've been envisioning it as a kind of mid-level Druid Spell kinda like Summon Shelter but instead you get a crude but sturdy Shelter made from locally sourced materials and a 10 ft stone perimeter wall around a 25x25 area. After 2d6 Rounds a number of Dinosaurs arrive and patrol the compound to guard the fort.
1-Minue Casting time: Built in Alarm System, Security Guards, Uncomfortable Beds, & a good size Campfire.
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Make it a Primal Ritual and it's perfect.
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Would not mind a Draconic Scion Achetype. Fold draconic powers into multiple classes. Would be a way to build a Dragon Disciple as well as numerous other draconic abilities onto pretty much any class.
I like the idea of a shadow user archtype. As they seem to be doing a push for a more greater identity to Nidal and the Nidalese people i could see a person who uses Shadows from classic Shadow Dancer style to even building weapons from Shadow.
Improvised Master. Uses improvised weapons and armor. Imagine a junk collector who made armor out of a trashcan, a helmet from an old pot, who duel wields a broken bottle and a chair leg with a nail sticking out of it and is able to throw together the weirdest things to make and give item bonuses to skill checks.
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Ritual Leader archetype that makes you better at rituals. Hey some rituals for free, get faster/more reliable rituals.
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I for one would personally be ECSTATIC if Paizo found a good way to Implement the Dragoon Knight as a valid and balanced Archetype.
3 Action Special Attack to Move up to your Land Speed, Make an Athletics Check to Jump and gain a bonus to Damage from dropping down on them like a vertical Charge.
I've been sadly disappointed with previous Systems attempts at replicating the Final Fantasy style Dragoon Characters and I really do think that it would be quite popular if they featured something like this to help Martial PCs specialize in both Reach weapons and Skill Use in a way that's unique and interesting.
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+1 for the shadowdancer and getting cool summoned shadow weapons.
I also really like the idea of the summoner being an archetype that gets to flavor it's summon/eidolon on it's base class.
Ritual Leader archetype that makes you better at rituals. Hey some rituals for free, get faster/more reliable rituals.
Just chiming in support of this idea. I like it. Rituals need more attention, as it is they seem like an afterthought when they could be really cool.