MODEL LEVEL PRICE
Mk 1 10 18,300
Mk 2 13 49,700
Mk 3 17 266,000
Mk 4 20 820,000A tiny rune is carved into your occipital lobe that is magically connected to microscopic holographic projectors implanted in your eyes. As a standard action, you can create an illusion that functions as holographic image with a spell level equal to the model number of your holographic eyes at any location you can see within range. You must concentrate on the illusion as a move action to maintain it, and you must keep your eyes on the illusion to concentrate, treating all other creatures as if they had concealment. Casting a spell (including creating a new illusion with your holographic eyes) immediately ends your concentration. The effect’s caster level is equal to your level, and the Will save DC to disbelieve.
If you quite concentration on these, does the image immediately disappear, or does it last additional rounds per the relevant spell description? Does the spell itself stop when you stop maintaining concentration, or is this just circular that the concentration itself stops when you maintain it? The answer has big implications for usability of higher level models.
Holographic Image I ends after concentration ends.
Holographic Image II ends 2 rounds after concentration ends.
Holographic Image III ends 3 rounds after concentration ends.
Holographic Image IV allows a script that can last for minutes per level without being maintained via concentration.
Since this item can be spammed infinitely during the day, I suspect the intent is that you only get the extra sensory effects of higher levels, not the extra duration. But I'm not sure of the most reasonable interpretation of the rules here, and there power is balanced by cost, availability, the restrictions on concentration (but on the other hand it only requires a move rather than standard action), and by taking up two systems (brain and eyes) rather than just one.
The text in the item trumps spell text. If you must concentrate on the illusion as a move action then it sgould wink out if you stop concentrating.
I don't think it's entirely clear what "maintain it" means here. I mean, you have to concentrate on a normal Holographic Illusion to maintain it, and if you stop, the higher level ones continue for a few more rounds anyway.
Honestly i think mk2+ would get to continue for a bit longer after you stop concentrating ..they are powerful but as you said balanced by a number of things (price, level, 2 slots, ect)
First I would say this.
Items which replicate spells typically do so with reduced effectiveness or with limitations. Keeping that in mind I would agree with Garrett. This is a case where the specific trumps the general.
Let's reverse engineer the context to better understand it. What is the duration of this ability? The text implies that it is until you lose concentration. How is concentration maintained? As a move action and you must be able to keep your eyes on the image. Casting any spell ends the concentration as well.
I would contend that this specific duration definition trumps the standard spell duration information.
This also thematically makes sense as the author stated that this item has unlimited uses per day. The idea that you need to be focused on the holographic image in order to maintain it keeps this item power checked.
to me it just like its explaining that if you don't use a move action to continue concentrating you lose "concentration" on the spell ....and it says if you cast a spell you immediately lose "concentration" .....not "the spell ends" ...it's says nothing about the spell not functioning the way it normally does
to me it just like its explaining that if you don't use a move action to continue concentrating you lose "concentration" on the spell ....and it says if you cast a spell you immediately lose "concentration" .....not "the spell ends" ...it's says nothing about the spell not functioning the way it normally does
This isn't a spell. Nor is it a device that casts a spell. It's a device that lets you simulate part of a spells description. That's an important distinction. These eyes don't actually cast the spell, they simulate it to a degree.
First off the point is it says your "concentration" ends, not the illusion ....And second it comes from Magitech which makes it Hybrid technology so yea, it pretty much is. ...spell like ability is probably more accurate ...you can see it is magic with detect magic or dispel it with dispel magic (though the user can just bring it right back) It is also vulnerable to effects that affect technological effects (note the eyes can't be directly targeted as they are augmentations).....also this part..."Casting a spell (including creating a new illusion with your holographic eyes)"
I believe you have misread the entry.
"You must concentrate on the illusion as a move action to maintain it.
Ergo, if you lose concentration the illusion ends.
The entry then goes on to detail things that are needed to maintain concentration and additional things that end concentration.
The entry seems to me quite clear on the illusion ending if you lose concentration.
I believe you have misread the entry.
"You must concentrate on the illusion as a move action to maintain it.
Ergo, if you lose concentration the illusion ends.
The entry then goes on to detail things that are needed to maintain concentration and additional things that end concentration.
The entry seems to me quite clear on the illusion ending if you lose concentration.
The issue is that "maintain" is not defined. You have to concentrate on the spell version to keep it going.
The image lasts for as long as you concentrate.
Is that concentration also "maintaining" the spell?
The image lasts for as long as you concentrate plus 2 additional rounds.
Again, isn't that a way of saying that you "maintain" the spell for as long as you concentrate, but then it continues for 2 additional rounds?
If I stop maintaining my car it doesn't immediately fall apart. It just starts a clock running before it quits working due to that lack of maintenance.
In the confines of this game concentrating to maintain a spell is well established wording (which this illusion functions as in all ways since it is magitech and it specifically says it functions as the spell)..just because you stop maintaining a concentration spell doesn't mean it automatically ends .....It works like all other concentration abilities work which is to say, that it many continue on for a short while after concentration ends if it says so
(Magyar5)
"You must concentrate on the illusion as a move action to maintain it.
Ergo, if you lose concentration the illusion ends.
No... if you fail to maintain it as a move you lose "concentration", same as if you cast a spell (immediately ends your concentration)...Not the spell(or illusion if you prefer)
maintain is not a action in this game
At the same time this is a mechanical implant, right? Not magic or a spell.
This is like a projector, projecting a hologram from your eyes. If the projector is unplugged or the signal is interrupted (cast a spell) or can no longer see the surface it is projecting on...crap. It is magitech. Nevermind :)
This is not a spell.
It's a tech item which creates an illusion like a spell. How do we know it's not the same? The description tells us. Does a normal holographic image spell require line of sight? It does not. This item has a different set of requirements for usage and a different set of requirements for duration.
Remember, specific always trumps any other rules. This item gives very specific criteria for the duration of the image created. It's duration is only as long as you concentrate on it. Further more you must be able to see it to concentrate on it.
I know it would be great it the text only said, "allows you to cast holographic image as a spell equivalent to this items MK.". However it doesn't.
If what u said were true these eyes would be in every way better than the spells.
I am 100% certain that's not what the developers intend, hence the specific rules around this item.
It's a magitech (not tech) item that duplicates a spell with certain modifications. One of those modifications ("maintain") is ill-defined and leaves open an ambiguity.
I'm not 100% what the developers intend, because the item is so expensive, high level, takes up to important augmentation slots, imposes extra limitations (must stare at your target, concealment to others while you do this) that offset the bonus (move instead of standard action to concentrate) that it's not at all unclear that the rest of the spell text, given the ambiguity of what "maintain" means, isn't meant to apply to the duration. It's only overpowered at the mk 4 (item level 20 and 820k credits) level, and it's otherwise pretty underpowered to buy increasingly expensive mk upgrades for pretty minor benefits.
I'm probably 80% in agreement that they didn't intend the extra duration, but they didn't write it clearly enough to make that certain and if they didn't intend it it's as likely they weren't aware of the extra rounds of duration issue as deliberately decided not to include it.
I still maintain that the description is quite clear. Let's go through the relevant part one last time and break it down.
"You must concentrate on the illusion as a move action to maintain it, and you must keep your eyes on the illusion to concentrate, treating all other creatures as if they had concealment."
You must (action verb) on the (noun) as a move action to (verb) (pronoun).
In this case, the "it" refers to the illusion(noun) not the verbs. It does not refer to concentration, well, because concentration (noun) is never mentioned in the sentence.
If we desire to continue we can analyze the later part of the sentence which simply places conditions on addendum necessary to perform the action verb (concentrate).
For transparency sake, I have also included the google definitions here: (Whenever I find something confusing I take the definitions for a word and substitute the definition and read it back to see if it makes sense).
Concentrate (verb): focus one's attention or mental effort on a particular object or activity.
Illusion (noun): a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.
Maintain (verb): cause or enable (a condition or state of affairs) to continue.
So if we substitute these definitions as part of the description.
"You must (focus one's attention or mental effort) on the (thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses) as a move action to (cause or enable the condition or state of affairs to continue) (thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses), and you must keep your eyes on the (thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses) to (focus one's attention or mental effort), treating all other creatures as if they had concealment."
I'm no English major, but reading it in this manner seems precisely clear in my mind.
Thoughts?
I still maintain that the description is quite clear. Let's go through the relevant part one last time and break it down.
"You must concentrate on the illusion as a move action to maintain it, and you must keep your eyes on the illusion to concentrate, treating all other creatures as if they had concealment."
You must (action verb) on the (noun) as a move action to (verb) (pronoun).
In this case, the "it" refers to the illusion(noun) not the verbs. It does not refer to concentration, well, because concentration (noun) is never mentioned in the sentence.
If we desire to continue we can analyze the later part of the sentence which simply places conditions on addendum necessary to perform the action verb (concentrate).
For transparency sake, I have also included the google definitions here: (Whenever I find something confusing I take the definitions for a word and substitute the definition and read it back to see if it makes sense).
Concentrate (verb): focus one's attention or mental effort on a particular object or activity.
Illusion (noun): a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.
Maintain (verb): cause or enable (a condition or state of affairs) to continue.So if we substitute these definitions as part of the description.
"You must (focus one's attention or mental effort) on the (thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses) as a move action to (cause or enable the condition or state of affairs to continue) (thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses), and you must keep your eyes on the (thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses) to (focus one's attention or mental effort), treating all other creatures as if they had concealment."
I'm no English major, but reading it in this manner seems precisely clear in my mind.
Thoughts?
I am in full agreement.
Maintain is not a action in this game.... You use a move to concentrate or you don't, ending your concentration, at which point the "illusion" functions just as the spell and lingers on.. BECAUSE IT SAYS IT FUNCTIONS AS THE SPELL ......And Again it is magitech (which is hybrid) making it a magic spell like ability, that responds to dispel magic and antimagic field as well as a tech based effect for any ability or spell that can disrupt that. (note nothing can actually target the eyes themselves as they are augments)....Nothing ever says the illusion comes to a abrupt end as soon as your concentration ends ....LOL ... ALSO THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IN TYPE 3 AND TYPE 4 IS THE ABILITY FOR THE HOLOGRAPHIC IMAGE TO FOLLOW A SCRIPT(well that and spell level,dc,ect) ...The intent is obvious if you read the spell ....otherwise there is no point to type 4 ....at 890,000c...and two body slots
lol, ..820,000c.. remembered that wrong .... should have looked at the top of the page i guess....also 20th level at that point
Maintain is not a action in this game.... You use a move to concentrate or you don't, ending your concentration, at which point the "illusion" functions just as the spell and lingers on.. BECAUSE IT SAYS IT FUNCTIONS AS THE SPELL ......And Again it is magitech (which is hybrid) making it a magic spell like ability, that responds to dispel magic and antimagic field as well as a tech based effect for any ability or spell that can disrupt that. (note nothing can actually target the eyes themselves as they are augments)....Nothing ever says the illusion comes to a abrupt end as soon as your concentration ends ....LOL ... ALSO THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IN TYPE 3 AND TYPE 4 IS THE ABILITY FOR THE HOLOGRAPHIC IMAGE TO FOLLOW A SCRIPT(well that and spell level,dc,ect) ...The intent is obvious if you read the spell ....otherwise there is no point to type 4 ....at 890,000c...and two body slots
4th level is also the first one that allows intelligible speech. Which isn’t nothing, but.
ah.. missed that part, good catch, i missed that you couldn't with 3, I though it was specifying it for the extended duration in 4 ... still the first and second parts still hold true ....
Maintain is not a action in this game.... You use a move to concentrate or you don't, ending your concentration, at which point the "illusion" functions just as the spell and lingers on because it's says it functions as the spell holographic image, and never clarifies that that it ends immediately when you end concentration ...failing to maintain concentration and the illusions means you have broken concentration on the hybrid spell like ability and in this case that just means the timer starts ticking
it is magitech (which is hybrid) making it a magic spell like ability, that responds to dispel magic and antimagic field as well as a tech based effect for any ability or spell that can disrupt that. (note nothing can actually target the eyes themselves as they are augments)
and... yea not sure intelligible speech is worth an extra 554,000. ...I feel you there Xenocrat
Magyar5 maintenance = concentration ....concentration = maintenance ... when you stop maintaining it, you stop concentrating ...since it says it works as the spell, and doesn't say it immediately ends when you break concentration, it resolves it self just like the spell ...... & also you can replace every word in the description with a synonym or selective definition and twist it to say just about anything you want, it just doesn't have much relevance at that point
Magyar5 maintenance = concentration ....concentration = maintenance ... when you stop maintaining it, you stop concentrating ...since it says it works as the spell, and doesn't say it immediately ends when you break concentration, it resolves it self just like the spell ...... & also you can replace every word in the description with a synonym or selective definition and twist it to say just about anything you want, it just doesn't have much relevance at that point
Xoshak, you keep using words NOT in the description of the item. Why do you use the words maintenance and concentration. Neither of those words are used in the description of this item and they are NOT interchangeable with the words concentrate and maintain. If you alter the words used, you alter the meaning.
The words in the description are 'concentrate' and 'maintain'.
"You must concentrate on the illusion as a move action to maintain it."
In addition, you are taking the full body of the spell and completely disregarding the items description.
Maintain IS an action in this game because this item says that you must concentrate to maintain. Maintain is a verb. Verbs are actions.
This really is simple. It's not the same as the spell. This item gives specific rules on how the illusion is maintained. Those rules trump the rules of the spell.
Ask yourself this one question. If the duration were not different, why would Paizo have bothered to include anything additional? They could have just stopped with "As a standard action, you can create an illusion that functions as holographic image with a spell level equal to the model number of your holographic eyes at any location you can see within range." End of story. The spell doesn't have all these other conditions. If the intent were for it to function exactly like the spell, Paizo would have just left it alone.
Lastly, I didn't replace the words in the description with random words or synonyms or selective definitions. Those are the definitions for those words. That's how English works. You may not like it, you may disagree with it all you want, but as it's written, the duration of the image generated by these holographic eyes is ONLY as long as you maintain the image.
P.S. Sure there's a purpose. Spells have limited usages per day. You can use these eyes as often as you wish per day. There's no limit. You can create a show with them to entertain. Use them for military training... there are millions of uses for these eyes. When you don't have to waste a spell slot on them, it makes them VERY much worth the cost.
One last thing. Let's look at the full description of the item instead of just getting hung up on a subsection of the description.
"A tiny rune is carved into your occipital lobe that is magically connected to microscopic holographic projectors implanted in your eyes. As a standard action, you can create an illusion that functions as holographic image with a spell level equal to the model number of your holographic eyes at any location you can see within range. You must concentrate on the illusion as a move action to maintain it, and you must keep your eyes on the illusion to concentrate, treating all other creatures as if they had concealment. Casting a spell (including creating a new illusion with your holographic eyes) immediately ends your concentration. The effect’s caster level is equal to your level, and the Will save DC to disbelieve it is equal to 10 + half your level + your Intelligence modifier."
I call your attention to 2 things.
1). The extent of the "magic" of this item is defined above. The rune is magically connected to microscopic projectors implanted in your eyes.
2). Microscopic projectors in your eyes.
So, exactly how does this item work? Is it creating a magic spell? Nope. The only magic in this item is the connection of the rune to the projectors. The projectors in your eyes create the holographic image. Not the magic. So, understanding that, doesn't it make sense that once the projectors in your eyes are no longer on the illusion, it would end? I mean.. that kinda makes sense to me and would lend credence to the fact that it doesn't just stick around when you aren't looking at it or concentrating on it.
What do you think? Am I totally daft in my understanding? Or does it seem that the projectors (which aren't magic by the way only magically connected to a rune in your brain) are what is making this image?
All Hybrid Tech is both magical and technological and effected by abilities that affect either and so are effects they create ...this is universal to all hybrid items ...all magitech items are hybrid items ....so yes the effect is magical and technological a hybrid spell like ability (because it functions just like a spell) .....and what page is the "maintain it" action on in the rule book? .... you use a move action to concentrate ...not "maintain it"....That is a description, one that actually implies that it does keep working because it doesn't say "if you don't take a move action to concentrate the illusion ends" or "immediately fades". What you have stopped doing in when you "fail to maintain it" in game terms is concentrating... Thus since there is nothing explicitly (and that is the standard) saying that the hybrid spell like ability does not function as the spell in this regard, that's the way it works.
I notice you didn't bother to address the points I made about the item and how it works.
I think it's quite clear to anyone who reads this thread that I have demonstrated unequivocally and logically, with no gaps that the illusion created by this item lasts only as long as you maintain it.
I've done so through word substitution. I've done so through an examination of the item's text and described mechanism of operation.
If you refuse to be convinced simply because you want it to function a certain way because you fail to see the value of the item unless it functions in the way you desire, there's no way to convince you that this item, as it's written is quite easy to understand.
You fall back on the argument, "fail to maintain it" as your crutch but it's not a leg that can be stood on. "fail to maintain it" as written means fail to maintain the illusion. "It" is a pronoun which refers to a noun. The only noun in that sentence it can refer to is "the illusion". There's no noun in that sentence called "concentration".
If you want to argue your point at least do so on the merits of fact and reason instead of misunderstanding of common English and an inflated idea of precedence in other game systems translating to this one.
Read the entries for Augmentations:Magitech again please. These aren't hybrid items. "Thought they can be detected and crafted as if they were hybrid items, once they are installed, they become part of your body and generally can't be affected by abilities that disable or destroy hybrid items." So your whole defense that these are hybrid items and are thus affected and cause affects like hybrid items is incorrect.
Believe as you wish. But the facts simply don't support your viewpoint.
(Magyar5) "I notice you didn't bother to address the points I made about the item and how it works."
No i didn't because they are irrelevant..... All Hybrid Tech is both magical and technological and effected by abilities that affect either and so are effects they create ...this is universal to all hybrid items ...all magitech items are hybrid items ....so yes the effect is magical and technological a hybrid spell like ability (because it functions just like a spell)
...and lets look at that definition ......"Thought they can be detected and crafted as if they were hybrid items, once they are installed, they become part of your body and generally can't be affected by abilities that disable or destroy hybrid items. .... So they can't be targeted by affects that target Hybrid items(ONCE INSTALLED)... and why is that? BECAUSE THEY ARE AUGMENTS ...i have pointed this out already ...and just because you can't affect them once installed doesn't mean you can't affect the generated effects of said item (or effect them just like any hybrid item before they are installed)
(Magyar5) "You fall back on the argument, "fail to maintain it" as your crutch but it's not a leg that can be stood on. "fail to maintain it" as written means fail to maintain the illusion. "It" is a pronoun which refers to a noun. The only noun in that sentence it can refer to is "the illusion". There's no noun in that sentence called "concentration"."
Falling to maintain it(the Illusion) is what happens when you stop concentrating as a move action(or using a move action to concentrate if your having trouble following along) ...in other words you have ended concentration ...and since this ability says it function just like the spell ...that's what it does
The "maintain it" meaning was the entire thing your argument hinged on(not mine) and now your back peddling from it ...and it seems your the one having a little English problem here because when you stop maintaining something it generally doesn't instantly disappear
And Honestly I can't believe i have entertained an argument over whether or not something called magitech is magical for this long
Falling to maintain it(the Illusion) is what happens when you stop concentrating as a move action(or using a move action to concentrate if your having trouble following along) ...in other words you have ended concentration ...and since this ability says it function just like the spell ...that's what it does
You are almost there Xoshak. So close you can almost reach out and touch it. Don't use "in other words" because you don't need any other words.
When you fail to maintain the illusion in any way, either because you can't see it or you are unable to concentrate, the illusion ends.
I can concede that hybrid items use both technology and magic, but I can't concede on how these particular items work.
Further, you haven't answered the particular questions I asked before. Go ahead and give it a try. I asked before " If the duration were not different, why would Paizo have bothered to include anything additional? They could have just stopped with "As a standard action, you can create an illusion that functions as holographic image with a spell level equal to the model number of your holographic eyes at any location you can see within range."
Why do you think they created additional content around this item? Was it for flavor? Was it to flesh out the description more? What are your thoughts?
(Magyar5) " If the duration were not different, why would Paizo have bothered to include anything additional? They could have just stopped with "As a standard action, you can create an illusion that functions as holographic image with a spell level equal to the model number of your holographic eyes at any location you can see within range."
BECAUSE IT STILL TAKES A MOVE ACTION TO CONCENTRATE JUST LIKE THE SPELL AND THAT MOVE ACTION HAS A SPECIAL REQUIREMENT AND LIMITATION(HAVING TO LOOK AT THE ILLUSION) ...that's the rules change and the only one
The spell actually requires a standard action to concentrate, not a move.
Xenocrat... yup your right......and that further explains why that language was included
The language was included because the duration is different. It's a lesser duration. These aren't as good as the spell. Plain and simple.
This item has unlimited uses per day. UNLIMITED. That's insane. If this behaved like the spell in it's duration it would be incredibly game breaking. There's literally NO item in the game that would approach this things role-playing power and potential. As it's written, it's still exceptionally powerful and well deserving of both a brain and eye slot usage.
Even with a requirement of keeping your eyes on the illusion AND being forced to concentrate on it to maintain the illusion, these are ridiculously powerful.
You can lead guards around with a scantily clad dancer. You can place a pile of credsticks anywhere you can see. You could place a coveted weapon or item just out of reach to lure an enemy to it. A whimpering child in distress. A puppy. A meal. Anything you can think of. Whatever a heart desires.
"Hey guys!! Cmere.. are you seeing what I am seeing? Look at that.. would you just look at it. Well don't stand there, I will keep watch. Go get it!"
You don't need the additional duration to make this item ridiculously strong. It's well worth every credit with the duration as written.
A mechanic can also have infinite holograms, but much sooner and without investing a huge chunk of their wealth. It’s not that big of a deal.
yea it's a 20th level item that cost 2 body slot and 820,000....and you need to stop saying "as written" because it's not written that way
So... I should stop saying that the rules of this item are written a certain way? Duration is clear. Gotta be looking at it. Gotta concentrate on it. Don't see how you can interpret it any other way unless English is difficult to understand.
“Maintain” is unclear in this context.
Yea and the illusion(spell like ability) does exactly what the spell normally does when you stop concentrating on a spell that has a extended duration after concentration ...it continues to run until the extra duration expires(for what 2-3 rds unless we are talking the 20th level version) .....the only the changes were... changing the normal standard action it takes to concentrate to a move, and changing the concentration action so that you have to be looking at the illusion to perform it.....there is NOTHING about changing the way ending concentrating on the spell like ability effects its listed duration.....your attempting to find a greater meaning of the words "maintain it", that just isn't there.....and that's usually a good sign your on the wrong path when it comes to interpreting the rules
“Maintain” is unclear in this context.
I am not sure I understand. Maintain(verb) in this sentence is quite clear. I discussed it earlier.
Just from the dictionary we know that the word "maintain" means.
"Maintain: cause or enable (a condition or state of affairs) to continue."
The "it" in the sentence on which maintain is acting is the holographic image. It is a pronoun.
"It : used to refer to a thing previously mentioned or easily identified."
The thing previously mentioned is the illusion. Concentration isn't even used in the sentence so "it" can't refer to concentration. The verb concentrate is used, but that is a verb (action), and not a noun.
So.. Using the dictionary to substitute..
"You must concentrate on the illusion as a move action to (enable the illusion to continue), and you must keep your eyes on the illusion to concentrate, treating all other creatures as if they had concealment.
Paizo isn't very clear on intent, but.. the wording is quite clear. Like it.. hate it.. agree or disagree. Unless you can change the meaning of the English words, I can't see how this is in any dispute. I really can't and believe me.. I wish it were different as I wouldn't mind a pair of these eyes in the upcoming levels.
Yes, and if you stop maintaining it, it starts to deteriorate, a process that takes some additional amount of time as determined by its spell equivalent.
That's not explicitly stated.
And it doesn't really make sense according to the description.
This illusion is a result of tiny projectors in your eyes. The only magic in this item is the link between the rune and the tiny projectors. It makes sense that the image would cease to exist if you stop looking at it. Further it would cease to exist if you stop concentrating on it while you are looking at it.
Again, think of what you are saying. You can cast a 4th level spell at lvl 20 as many times per day as you wish. And you don't have to "maintain" it? You can just cast it and let it ride.. as many times per day as you want? A spell that lasts 20 minutes... as many times per day as you want, that you don't have to concentrate on or maintain?
Doesn't that sound a little bit overpowered? There's nothing on the market quite like it. It would be a steal at 800,000 credits.
No, it doesn't sound overpowered in fact it is rendered almost useless by both a...7th level augment that cost 6300(synchronous heart) and a 12th level scope(oh look aeon eye ...that's new ...would also work...also arcane lenses....and it is a 20 level item ...THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE POWERFUL and if you run up against someone with a 20 level item, your high enough level that you should have figured out a way around illusions by now(or at least have a decent will save).....sort of a "you problem" at that point..... AND NOTHING EXPLICITLY STATES THAT THE DURATION OF HOLOGRAPHIC IMAGE IS REDUCED ....YOU, TAKING SELECTIVE DEFINITIONS OF "MAINTAIN" IN ORDER FOR YOU TO GET WHAT YOU WANT, IS NOT, AND WILL NEVER BE, A EXPLICIT RULES CHANGE ........This line..... "You must concentrate on the illusion as a move action to maintain it, and you must keep your eyes on the illusion to concentrate, treating all other creatures as if they had concealment." ...... is included to illustrate 2 changes. 1st ...it takes a move action instead of the normal standard to maintain the spell & 2nd that move action has the extra requirement of looking at the illusion ......and if they had actually intended the spell like ability to immediately end they would have never used the word concentration... which strongly implies the spells duration functions normally
That's not explicitly stated.
And it doesn't really make sense according to the description.This illusion is a result of tiny projectors in your eyes. The only magic in this item is the link between the rune and the tiny projectors. It makes sense that the image would cease to exist if you stop looking at it. Further it would cease to exist if you stop concentrating on it while you are looking at it.
Again, think of what you are saying. You can cast a 4th level spell at lvl 20 as many times per day as you wish. And you don't have to "maintain" it? You can just cast it and let it ride.. as many times per day as you want? A spell that lasts 20 minutes... as many times per day as you want, that you don't have to concentrate on or maintain?
Doesn't that sound a little bit overpowered? There's nothing on the market quite like it. It would be a steal at 800,000 credits.
I'm glad to see we've moved on from "my client didn't kill him" to "but if he did, it was justified."
An 8th level mechanic can take the Holographic Projector trick.
Your custom rig can project holographic images as a standard action as often as you like, as per 2nd-level holographic image except it can create speech and has a range of only 120 feet.
So this is infinitely spammable, and it lasts 2 rounds after you stop concentrating. It costs nothing but a mechanic trick.
The mk2 Holographic Eyes are item level 13, cost almost 50k, take up two important augmentation slots, and are less capable than this ability (minor sounds, no speech). The mk3 version can do smells and thermal, which aren't very important for most things, but can't do speech. The mk4 can do speech, but is level 20 and costs 820k. Infinitely spammable illusions that last are not the most powerful thing a level 20 character can do with that much money.
It's fine, really. And it might be the rule. It's hard to say.
Xoshak, you don't have to shout to try and get your point across. I mean, if you can make a reasonable argument there's no need for shouting. You said I am choosing a selective definition of the word "maintain" and I'm pretty sure that's THE definition, not a selective one.
Further you should take a note from Xenocrat. He offers compelling similarities to a different ability that lend precedence to his claim.
If your issue is that I am using plain English to justify things as they are written, then guilty as charged. But I'm not trying to manipulate the language. I am simply stating that as written, the language is compelling enough to be understood that the duration is different than the spell.
Lastly you really need to stop using the word concentration in place of concentrate. Those are different words with different meanings. That may be what is confusing you in the context of the sentence structure. "You must concentrate" is very different than "You must maintain concentration". It even goes on to say "Casting a spell (including creating a new illusion with your holographic eyes) immediately ends your concentration." This sentence alone implies that the illusion ends when your concentration ends.
Xenocrat:
I see your point. An 8th level mechanic trick would make a compelling argument. However, there's no additional text talking about the duration of the mechanic trick. This particular item has some explicit text added on to the item's description which center around the duration. Perhaps I spent to long in my logics class in college and too many years as a programmer. The sentence is written as a conjunction and so I naturally must assume that p ^ q (T only when p = T q = T).
P = concentrate
q = keep eyes on illusion
T = illusion
I think the only people that can settle this is Paizo, and they seem quite busy with Pathfinder 2.0 right now. So I doubt this will ever get resolved here.
(Magyar) "Lastly you really need to stop using the word concentration in place of concentrate.".... No i don't ..."you must concentrate" and "concentration" and "concentrating" are all used to describe the same thing in this game ...both "concentrating" and "you must concentrate" are use to describe the same process under holographic image ....both "concentration" and "you must concentrate" are mentioned under concentrating on spells ......so your completely wrong about that i can interchange them as much as you want .....(AND WHAT YOUR DOING THERE IS A TROLLING TACTIC ....TRYING TO RESTRICT MY USE OF LANGUAGE SO THAT IT IS HARDER FOR ME TO MAKE MY POINT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T WIN THIS ARGUMENT ON ITS MERITS....TAKE THAT BS ELSEWHERE)
and there are many different definitions of every word ...here's two more for maintain that don't work out so good for you
"keep (something) at the same level or rate."
keep something (a building, machine, or road) in good condition or in working order by checking or repairing it regularly.
so yea taking a "selective definition" is exactly what your doing, because YOUR entire argument hinges on the word maintain... (SOMETHING YOU ACCUSED ME OF, THIS IS CALLED "DISPLACEMENT" AND IT IS ANOTHER COMMON TROLLING TACTIC"
AND finally... "Casting a spell (including creating a new illusion with your holographic eyes) immediately ends your CONCENTRATION."....yes this is exactly how the spell(any spell) works ...when you start concentrating to cast the new spell the concentration to maintain the old one is broken and it fades in the normal number of rounds (maybe 0rd, maybe 1 minute per level, depends on the spell)
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I don't see the problem.
The item clearly says "you can create an illusion that functions as holographic image with a spell level equal to the model number of your holographic eyes"
So take a look at the related spell "holographic image" and you find your answer: Holographic Image
Mk 1 lasts for as long as you concentrate.
MK 2 lasts for as long as you concentrate plus 2 additional rounds.
MK 3 lsts for as long as you concentrate plus 3 additional rounds.
MK 4 lasts for 1 minute per level (so 4 minutes)
And like the spell you have to concentrate (this time as a move action) to maintain it.
I don't see the problem.
The item clearly says "you can create an illusion that functions as holographic image with a spell level equal to the model number of your holographic eyes"
So take a look at the related spell "holographic image" and you find your answer: Holographic ImageMk 1 lasts for as long as you concentrate.
MK 2 lasts for as long as you concentrate plus 2 additional rounds.
MK 3 lsts for as long as you concentrate plus 3 additional rounds.
MK 4 lasts for 1 minute per level (so 4 minutes)And like the spell you have to concentrate (this time as a move action) to maintain it.
The MK 4 is item level 20, so 20 minutes.
(Magyar) "Lastly you really need to stop using the word concentration in place of concentrate.".... No i don't ..."you must concentrate" and "concentration" and "concentrating" are all used to describe the same thing in this game ...both "concentrating" and "you must concentrate" are use to describe the same process under holographic image ....both "concentration" and "you must concentrate" are mentioned under concentrating on spells ......so your completely wrong about that i can interchange them as much as you want .....(AND WHAT YOUR DOING THERE IS A TROLLING TACTIC ....TRYING TO RESTRICT MY USE OF LANGUAGE SO THAT IT IS HARDER FOR ME TO MAKE MY POINT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T WIN THIS ARGUMENT ON ITS MERITS....TAKE THAT BS ELSEWHERE)
and there are many different definitions of every word ...here's two more for maintain that don't work out so good for you
"keep (something) at the same level or rate."
keep something (a building, machine, or road) in good condition or in working order by checking or repairing it regularly.
so yea taking a "selective definition" is exactly what your doing, because YOUR entire argument hinges on the word maintain... (SOMETHING YOU ACCUSED ME OF, THIS IS CALLED "DISPLACEMENT" AND IT IS ANOTHER COMMON TROLLING TACTIC"
AND finally... "Casting a spell (including creating a new illusion with your holographic eyes) immediately ends your CONCENTRATION."....yes this is exactly how the spell(any spell) works ...when you start concentrating to cast the new spell the concentration to maintain the old one is broken and it fades in the normal number of rounds (maybe 0rd, maybe 1 minute per level, depends on the spell)
Once again, you are shouting as if that lends credence to what you are saying. It doesn`t.
To address your points. I'm sure that you don't need an English lesson in differentiating in verbs and nouns. That being said, it's important that you be accurate in your usage as it modifies context. Here's an example that is easy to follow.
Bobby Fischer had to concentrate on his next chess move to maintain his lead. Was Bobby Fischer concentrating? Was his concentration good enough to maintain his lead? If his lead was lost, can we say that he did not concentrate? No, we can't. Can we say he was concentrating? We can infer that he wasn't because he lost his lead. Can we say his concentration was good enough to keep his lead? We can answer unequivocally no.
The definitions and context matter. A word that is a verb is used to convey a meaning that is different than a word that is a noun.
I am not attempting to troll you. That's an ugly accusation by the way and uncalled for. I am simply trying to understand the intent as it's written and as I said before, it's very hard to be sure. I can use anecdotal evidence to support my interpretation, and have done so, though its not a strong support as Xenocrat has pointed out.
As to your other definitions of maintain, the second definition readily supports my claim. Using the same substitution as I did before: "You must concentrate to `keep the illusion at the same rate or level`". That actually bolsters my claim, so thank you. As to the third definition, since we arent talking about a road, building, or machine then it doesn't apply to this discussion.
Tryn:
The gist of the discussion is how long it lasts as Paizo has added additional guidelines around this item. My stance is that the illusion fades the moment you stop concentrating on the illusion, either because you stopped looking at it, are casting another spell, or are using the item again.
If I am mistaken than you could (at lvl 20) conjure up an entire TV episode of illusions as this item has no restrictions on usage per day. You could make a cornucopia of temptations in a single minute and since u aren't concentrating on them they would each last an additional 19 minutes. Remember, the description states that your concentration ends if you use the item again. If Xoshak is correct, then the illusion you create would still last. You could conjure another the next round and it would last as well. So on and so forth.
I contend that this is not the intention of the item however the wording for the duration is left open to interpretation.
so when bobby's concentration faltered did the game immediately end?... or did it continue on for a number of rounds or possibly minutes until the game came to it's natural conclusion....... and again in starfinder you must continue concentrating, you must maintain concentration, and as long as you concentrate are all used reference the same thing
.... to clarify I was very careful not to actually call you a troll because I don't think you are one ...it think you really believe your point of view ....but regardless, you are using similar tactics to trolls to attempt to win this argument and that i will call that out
The point was that the differences in words convey different inferences based off usage and meaning.
If we look at the first example we can't determine if he failed to concentrate. He could infer he didn't concentrate but that would be a fallacious inference.
Was he concentrating? He could have been. Just because he made a bad move and lost the lead doesn't mean he wasn't concentrating. We can infer that perhaps he was concentrating too little.
Did his concentration work? This we can answer as No. His concentration wasn't sufficient because he lost the lead.
(BTW. I do like that you tossed in that extension to the game to try and sidestep the illustration and use that to key back in to the argument.)
While all three words (concentrate, concentrating, and concentration) share a root, they communicate different things and that's the point. How we interpret these is important and using them accurately is central to having a meaningful discussion around the topic at hand.
I don't contend with Troll so I don't know their tactics. It's not my desire to restrict your language, only to ensure your language is accurately reflecting the dilemma at hand.
Lastly, I don't wish to win the argument. This argument can't be won by either of us as the wording is too vague and left open to interpretation.
I would simply ask that you consider the full implication of what it means if the item functions as you claim. Why would they bother including anything about keeping your eyes on the illusion to concentrate. As a matter of fact, why include any additional text at all. You typically have to pay by the word to get things published. It seems to me they could have saved themselves some money if the intent was that the holographic image functioned with the same duration as the spell. Further, why would they need to say that the specific trumps the general when it comes to rules? Seems to me that this item gets some specifics, but again, that's just my interpretation.
Overall, it comes down to your GM and what they think. Personally, as a GM, considering the implications, text, other items, player abilities, etc. I would rule that the duration is negated when you stop concentration or lose sight to the illusion. It fits thematically with the item (you aren't casting the spell. The projectors in your eyes are creating an illusion). It brings the item in line with the power structure of other items since you have unlimited uses per day. It also doesn't negate the power of the item and it's ability to be used in a meaningful and highly role-playable way. It keeps the players power curve in check and I don't have to, as a GM, find specific items to negate this item for my NPC's. One of the most troublesome aspects of being a GM is giving players items that are just problematic to deal with. This is one of those items. (all you GM's know what I am talking about.. Deck of Many Things!!) An experienced player could abuse this items power VERY easily (if it functioned as you claim) to quickly gain advantages and set a power curve that other players would feel left out from. Heaven help you if you find a player who is creative and clever and knows the power of illusions!!