Point blank shooting

[pauljathome]

In game today I noticed something rather amusing.

Goblin warriors are much better with their bows than their swords.

Attacks of Opportunity aren't a thing (in general) any longer.

So, the goblins just shot the PCs even while standing right beside them.

Not sure if this is expected or not so I thought that I'd mention it

[Mudfoot]

Well spotted, that man.

AoOs were one of the few things that kept archery in check in 1e. This suggests that if AoOs aren't significant any longer, archery needs some other restriction. Something like needing a feat or proficiency to get a free-action reload (and maybe shortbows might need 1 action to reload, and longbows 2, reduced by 1 per feat. Eliminate Volley.).

[ChibiNyan]

pauljathome wrote:

In game today I noticed something rather amusing.

Goblin warriors are much better with their bows than their swords.

Attacks of Opportunity aren't a thing (in general) any longer.

So, the goblins just shot the PCs even while standing right beside them.

Not sure if this is expected or not so I thought that I'd mention it

Those low level Goblins are just insane with the bows. Fighters cry in envy at that hit rate and crit-murder potential.

[Quenevere]

Bows are expensive to start with , your not getting a str mod at low levels and even then its only 50% . But a magical bow 3 actions a round its definitely going to sting. But the look on the players face when they say oh well no AoO so I'm gold only to get a sword to the face for their troubles with the great for a while :P

[Melkiador]

I do think it's a small "problem". Using a bow in melee combat should be dangerous, but I don't know of a good way to do that without giving everyone the attack of opportunity power. I can't see a good reason for that not to be a universal power though. Just make the fighter better at it.

[magnuskn]

BTW, I'm not sure if I'm reading the Deadly property correctly. Does the critical hit additional die change from a d6 to a d10, or do you add the normal second d6 and then a d10 on top?

[Seannoss]

I'm unsure about the deadly property as well. It doesn't help that the example is incorrect.

[N N 959]

magnuskn wrote:

BTW, I'm not sure if I'm reading the Deadly property correctly. Does the critical hit additional die change from a d6 to a d10, or do you add the normal second d6 and then a d10 on top?

Deadly adds an additional d10. The base damage die do not change.

[Seannoss]

Add on top of the crit effect? So a normal long bow would crit for a d8 + a d10? Or would crit for 2d8+ 1d10?

[magnuskn]

Yeah, what Seannoss asked.

[ChibiNyan]

Seannoss wrote:

Add on top of the crit effect? So a normal long bow would crit for a d8 + a d10? Or would crit for 2d8+ 1d10?

Yes, it is on top. A longbow Crit deald 2d8 + d10, am positive on this based on the Math in the Merisiel pregen.

The fatal propery does this + converts the dice. A pickaxe deals like 1d6, but a crit deals 3d10.

[N N 959]

What Chibi said. On crits, you don't double additional damage dice, only the base die and the modifiers.

[Rahod]

I don't understand how this is any different than someone with a Bastard Sword!

a bow does 1d6 which is mid-range damage unless it crits which then goes up to 1d10. Now a Bastard sword does 1d8 and if wielded two-handed gets 1d12.

All this does is allow you to shoot people closer up than before. I would understand the outcry if there was another factor in play but I don't see one.

[N N 959]

Rahod wrote:

a bow does 1d6 which is mid-range damage unless it crits which then goes up to 1d10.

Not quite. A shortbow does 1d6. If it crits, it does 2d6. The Deadly traits means you add an additional 1d10 of crit damage, once.

If you wield a B-sword two-handed, your crit does 2d12.

It's important to note that as you add +1's to the weapon, the number of die you roll for damage increase, but the Deadly property doesn't seem to change. So a +5 shortbow rolls 6d6 for damage and 12d6 +1d10 on a crit. However, if you improve the Quality fo the weapon to Master, you get 2d10 for Deadly and 3d10 for Legendary.

[magnuskn]

Okay, then that makes bow significantly more <drumroll> deadly than I imagined them to be.

[Rahod]

So based on what you are showing me is +5 weapons would be on a crit

Weapon Dice Pools = Possible Damage Range with dice only

S-Bow 12d6+3d10 = 15-102
L-Bow 12d8+3d10 = 15-126
pick 12d10 = 12-120 (Fatal)
Scythe 12d10+3d10 = 15-150
B-Sword 12d12 = 12-144

Still, don't see how they are so powerful they need AoO on them at close range.

[ChibiNyan]

Rahod wrote:

So based on what you are showing me is +5 weapons would be on a crit

Weapon Dice Pools = Possible Damage Range with dice only

S-Bow 12d6+3d10 = 15-102
L-Bow 12d8+3d10 = 15-126
pick 12d10 = 12-120 (Fatal)
Scythe 12d10+3d10 = 15-150
B-Sword 12d12 = 12-144

Still, don't see how they are so powerful they need AoO on them at close range.

Fatal adds an extra dice besides covnerting, so Pick should be 13d10, really scary! THough it doesn't increase with quality, it's always just +1 dice.

[Ssalarn]

Melkiador wrote:

I do think it's a small "problem". Using a bow in melee combat should be dangerous, but I don't know of a good way to do that without giving everyone the attack of opportunity power. I can't see a good reason for that not to be a universal power though. Just make the fighter better at it.

It's worth noting that one of the benefits to shortbows over longbows now is that longbows (regular and composite) have the volley property and take a -2 penalty when used inside their normal range increment. So if you want to use a bow in melee, you're probably using the lower damage die shortbow.

My home group's dwarf barbarian got the Boromir treatment from the goblins since none of them bothered to swap to melee weapons, but that actually made for a pretty cool interaction when the group realized that they'd focused really heavily on control and direct offense and hadn't left themselves with much reactive offense, so they quickly switched up their tactics and steamrolled the rest of the encounters once they'd adjusted to the new dynamics.