But without the Monastic Weaponry feat the monk treats those as untrained; so takes a -2 penalty.
Honestly I don't think throwing a shuriken with a -2 penalty is the end of the world, but its not as efficient as it could be.
Or you just take the feat. There is really no point in complaining about not having ranged weapons when the only thing that holds you back is putting one of your class-feats into it.
I guess that is true for OP.
In my case, I don't really care for ranged attack options. I got a party of allies that I hold responsible to sort out that trouble for me ^_^
Or you just take the feat. There is really no point in complaining about not having ranged weapons when the only thing that holds you back is putting one of your class-feats into it.
That's the definition of a feat tax.
You shouldn't need to pay a feat to be able to use a sling just to poke at an enemy from afar. You don't need to make ranged attacks Flurry of Blows compatible, but it's a basic proficiency for any adventurer.
Or you just take the feat. There is really no point in complaining about not having ranged weapons when the only thing that holds you back is putting one of your class-feats into it.That's the definition of a feat tax.
You shouldn't need to pay a feat to be able to use a sling just to poke at an enemy from afar. You don't need to make ranged attacks Flurry of Blows compatible, but it's a basic proficiency for any adventurer.
And you actually don't need to pay the feat to be able to use the sling. You just don't get the unarmed proficiency bonus. Beside that you get access to all the monk weapons by taking that feat, so don't behave as if that feat was a tax.
And you actually don't need to pay the feat to be able to use the sling. You just don't get the unarmed proficiency bonus. Beside that you get access to all the monk weapons by taking that feat, so don't behave as if that feat was a tax.Or you just take the feat. There is really no point in complaining about not having ranged weapons when the only thing that holds you back is putting one of your class-feats into it.That's the definition of a feat tax.
You shouldn't need to pay a feat to be able to use a sling just to poke at an enemy from afar. You don't need to make ranged attacks Flurry of Blows compatible, but it's a basic proficiency for any adventurer.
You do, you are not proficient with simple weapons.
Saying "-2 is not a big penalty" is a terrible argument, btw. -2 is a massive penalty in PF2.
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I mean, if monks were just trained in monk weapons, and they needed to take the feat in order to treat them as "unarmed attacks" for purposes of flurrying etc., I think that would be a better situation (as that feat is still desirable to weapon-themed monks, but other monks aren't SOL versus something that's flying higher than they can currently jump).
I wonder. Did Kwai Chang Caine ever complain about a "feat tax"?
I think it would be enough if monks get trained proficiency in simple monk weapons. Then add dagger and staff to the list of monk weapons.
And again the discussion came down to: why don't i get everything for free from the start?
Short answer: Cause balancing.
And again the discussion came down to: why don't i get everything for free from the start?
Short answer: Cause balancing.
So what would be unbalanced if monks were trained in monk weapons, and were merely asked to take a feat to treat them as unarmed strikes?
Every monk who wants to fight primarily with weapons is still going to want that feat, after all.
By that argument the wizard player could also ask for being trained in martial weapons. It's just 0 instead of -2. Would that be unbalanced? No big deal, right? Gandalf has a sword!
By that argument the wizard player could also ask for being trained in martial weapons. It's just 0 instead of -2. Would that be unbalanced? No big deal, right? Gandalf has a sword!
By this logic, Wizards should not be able to cast spells either, you'd need 5 levels training Arcana and performing several high difficulty DCs to get access to, say, Detect Magic.
The point is that Wizards get basic proficiency to interact with the game world from the start. An assortment of spells they can use for several purposes, and proficiency with simple weapons to give them a mundane tool to fix combat. In addition, they get skills.
Monks get some skills (certainly less than a Wizard), get no tools to interact with distant enemies, enemies that are dangerous to come up close to, lack the versatility of spellcasting, lack high enough AC to just stand there in front of their enemies.
You are unable to have basic proficiency in one of the simplest things in the world.
If you follow your logic, nobody should get anything because obtaining it is better than simply receiving it.
My point is that your choices should feel like they add on top of a foundation, not compensate for a shoddy construction.
But this should be clear: I'm only having this conversation because I want you to understand why Paizo WILL change it. There is no universe lack of simple weapon proficiency makes it past the playtest. I hope this post illuminates you on why.
By that argument the wizard player could also ask for being trained in martial weapons. It's just 0 instead of -2. Would that be unbalanced? No big deal, right? Gandalf has a sword!
By this logic, Wizards should not be able to cast spells either, you'd need 5 levels training Arcana and performing several high difficulty DCs to get access to, say, Detect Magic.
Thanks for making my point. This was not my argument and I just led it to it's natural conclusion ad absurdum.
It all comes down to one question. Do monks need simple weapon proficiency?
In my opinion they don't because if monks train weapons it's monk specific weapons. Not just simple or martial weapons. That doesn't fit their class.
So then you need to ask if monks need automatic access to monk specific weapons. And my answer would be no again because they should have to buy the access to them with a feat like everybody else has to buy access to a specific weapon group (like elf, orc, etc.). This shouldn't just be free.
Add me to the cadre of folks who would like to see Ki Strike either boosted in power/efficacy, or given for free early on to avoid the tax-like feeling (I would rather it be boosted so people can build a non-ki monk if they so desire)
I like PossibleCabbage's idea of allowing them access to monk weapons, and then using the feat to make it really shine with FoB.
Speaking of FoB - what's everyone's thoughts on dropping the iterative MAP? Is that so strong that it is broken? Flavour-wise, it seems like it should fly, not to mention it would make flurries at -4/-4 possible/viable if there is ever a need.
I just think it doesn't make any sense for Monks to have literally the fewest weapon proficiencies in the game.
Like in PF1, the core monk has proficiency in 19 specific weapons, whereas Wizards were proficient in 5. So what sense does it make for the wizard to have more weapon proficiencies in PF2 than the monk?
It makes sense from a viewpoint that a lot of martial arts don't even implement weapons in their fighting styles and some even look down on that. Also monks actually get proficiency. In unarmed attacks. You guys behave as if that was nothing.
I am also underwhelmed by the initial Ki Strike ability.
It costs 1 Spell Point, for a +1 on a single attack roll. Would it be too powerful if it applied to all attacks for the rest of the turn?
For the rest, I mostly like what they have done with the monk.
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Here's my deal: Pathfinder has hammered it in, time and time again, that every character should have melee and ranged capabilities. They don't have to be fantastic, but they should be present. Level 1 Kyra has a sword, sling, AND fire-beam. But the monk has . . . nothing. No ranged training and no training in any other weapons.I'm not asking for much, just simple weapon training so my monk can chuck a javalin at a flying enemy at level 1. Or shoot a crossbow. Listen, eastern Monks were where we got the concept of masters of zen archery, some could do crazy things with spears and hook swords, all sorts of crazy stuff. I'm just asking for a ranged option, that's all.
Sorry for getting on topic again...
You completely missed that weapons with the monk trait can be used with the monks unarmed proficiency. That includes Shuriken, which is a ranged weapon.
IF you take a class feat to get them. They only become trained in those weapons if they get the monk weapon training class feat (or whatever it is called)