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First, let me state that I'm a fan of Paizo APs. My 1st Paizo AP was Rise of the Runelords and I've collected most of them over the years but really only used elements of an AP rather than run one start to finish as written. While I have my favorites, even for AP plots that I didn't love, there's still no denying that PF1 APs have been the gold standard of RPG adventures for many years.
I've recently been diving into Starfinder and since I'm playing in Dead Suns, I decided to adapt a PF1 AP installment to Starfinder. Going in, I wasn't sure if I'd attempt to adapt the entire 6-installment run but I pulled 5 APs that I thought had the potential to be adapted to Starfinder without too much trouble.
My players settled on Strange Aeons. Now, I'm aware that Strange Aeons is an unusual AP based on the "hook" and how that unfolds over the course of the AP. Adaptation worked great and we're halfway through SA-pt1.
In prepping future sessions, however, trying to piece together the villain's plot, how it intersects with "highlighted villains" of other AP installments, and how the PCs stories integrate into the whole was...well, it's a mess. Not the plot itself, but rather how the info was presented. At one point, I had all 6 PDFs open and was flipping between all of them trying to piece together a coherent timeline of what the bad guys were up to and why.
This caused me to reflect on other APs and while this facet stood out to me with Strange Aeons, it isn't the only AP to have this issue. I understand that part of it stems from having 6 different authors. Part stems from condensed recaps and slow reveals that focus on what's relevant to a particular AP installment. But none of that makes it any less confusing, even when a GM has all 6 parts of an AP on hand.
This got me thinking about things like the Starfinder CRB, Beginner's Box, and Strategy Guide. Paizo clearly learned better ways to organize and present the information to make it more accessible.
I can't help but think that a "the villain's plan" summary would be immensely helpful. Things such as "key NPC whereabouts/plots/motivations", something that helps guide the GM while running the game vs. pages of text. I always read an adventure before running it but even doing that, in Strange Aeons, there's a lot of info and nuance contained in the adventure itself forces a GM to keep flipping between the info and the Adventure Background. Mix in other AP installments written by different authors and its a multiplicative factor.
I know that the AP line has experimented with the content that comprises the AP but I don't see a lot that has changed with how the info is presented.
I'm not suggesting sweeping changes but a unified plot/plan summary that encompasses the full AP, even in bullet-point form, would be helpful to me. The AP plan in the back of every APs 1st installment is good broad-brush for player teases or gauging interest but is of little to no help when running a game. I also think sidebars/callouts about key plot points and/or references to relevant pages/sections/mentions in other AP installments would be of use. We get them for items and occasionally for AP subsystems or potential "problem areas", so why not for helping the GM keep the AP's plot on course? Personally, I'd rather get the plot help and have magic item callouts contained in its own backmatter section like key NPCs and the AP bestiary.
Anyone else out there hoping to see some changes/improvements in AP structure/presentation? Has anyone come up with tricks or tips for dealing with this?
Again, I love Paizo's APs. I'm just wondering if their presentation can be further improved the way Paizo has improved the presentation of RPG material.
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If it isn't broken don't fix it.
I like how they tweak things here or there, I don't think drastic changes are needed.
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Wrath of the Righteous had a pseudo variant of this on the inside cover. It had the main NPCs for both the heroes and the villains, and what they were doing in the interim for the APs they weren't in (or it noted if they were dead).
I found that very useful information to have as a DM. Additionally, for Strange Aeons, Dasrak made a helpful timeline of events that I've been adhering to, just in case my players go off the rails (they havn't yet, but I'm not counting it out).
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uc37?Strange-Aeons-Backstory-Chronology
As for how to incorporate these concepts in an AP, I'm not sure how to begin doing that. Maybe making the blurbs for the rest of the AP in the back more detailed for DMs?
Thanks, uafbum, I'd forgotten about the NPC guides in Wrath of the Righteous. That's definitely the kind of thing that I'm talking about. Different APs have tried different things but few seem to cross APs.
I did find that chronology as well and it certainly helps and that would be another example of something that would really, really help some of the APs. Even something more loosely defined would be helpful so long as it captures the intended/likely sequence of events in a villain's plans.
How that kind of stuff gets implemented could vary widely, of course, but I'd find it extremely useful to have that kind of stuff included in APs more often.
Yeah, the additional information what important NPC's were doing in each module in WotR was one of the good parts of that adventure path.
I'd say there could be more interconnectivity between the AP modules, but that discussion was already done years ago. The problem, according to James, is that most modules are being written concurrently by the different writers and for some reason getting them all in a teamspeak together to coordinate is really, really difficult.
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Look, if millions of people can get regular raid groups together once a week in the multitude of MMO's which exist, which then keep working together for a four hour (or more) raid, I can't imagine that it is sheer impossible to get six writers into a chat program once for an entire AP, where they can spend a few hours hashing out common story beats and a basic NPC progression.
It's really one of the more annoying things about adventure paths in terms of storytelling that very often the modules seem disconnected from each other and NPC's introduced in one module are very often shoved aside for other new NPC's. Or, if they are transfered to the sequel modules, they have no plot anymore, because there appears to be that fear that a player playing a super murder hobo shoved them into a meatgrinder.
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Look, if millions of people can get regular raid groups together once a week in the multitude of MMO's which exist, which then keep working together for a four hour (or more) raid
Most of those millions of people are kids and tweens with no jobs, families and other obligations to handle, mind you.
Besides, coordinating things like that would work if every writer would be on the same deadline, but alas, they are spread over the course of a year or so. They're not being written concurrently. By the time author of adventure 1 is gone and done, author of adventure 6 likely didn't start working on it yet. With the reality of the industry being that majority of writers are freelancers who live off gigs or write adventures after hours of their primary jobs, extra coordination becomes more complicated.
Look, if millions of people can get regular raid groups together once a week in the multitude of MMO's which exist, which then keep working together for a four hour (or more) raid, I can't imagine that it is sheer impossible to get six writers into a chat program once for an entire AP, where they can spend a few hours hashing out common story beats and a basic NPC progression.
It's really one of the more annoying things about adventure paths in terms of storytelling that very often the modules seem disconnected from each other and NPC's introduced in one module are very often shoved aside for other new NPC's. Or, if they are transfered to the sequel modules, they have no plot anymore, because there appears to be that fear that a player playing a super murder hobo shoved them into a meatgrinder.
I always thought it was more your second paragraph than an inability to get a group discussion happening.
Paizo have to be aware of those groups who do regard all NPCs as potential targets.
I suspect it’s also impacted by the constraint (admittedly self-imposed, but probably commercially sensible) of ensuring each can be easily played as a stand-alone module.
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I think the OP's point was less "the books of each AP are not well connected" and more "the GM has to reference all of the books in multiple locations to figure out the overall plot structure." In this sense, having the various authors work together more isn't really the solution. Instead the OP is looking for an outline writeup of the entire story and something like that has to exist or the books wouldn't fit together at all - the authors have to be working against some kind of framework. Something like "A GM's Guide to <AP>" akin to the player's guides.
It might be that such a thing isn't commercially viable - where do you put it - page count/word count, etc.? How much does it enhance sales of the AP? How much effort does it take? Does it form an artificial constraint on the consumers/users of the AP - to some extent such a thing would express this is how the AP is "supposed" to go. That might be as inhibiting to some as it is an enhancement to others.
Look, if millions of people can get regular raid groups together once a week in the multitude of MMO's which exist, which then keep working together for a four hour (or more) raidMost of those millions of people are kids and tweens with no jobs, families and other obligations to handle, mind you.
That is complete and utter horsecrap. Most raiders in WoW which I know are in their mid-twenties, working full-time. And then it goes up from there. World of Warcraft has a user base which has grown with the game, since it has been out for 14 years. And the ones who are still with the game (which are millions) still manage to make time every week to free a four hour block of their time.
Besides, coordinating things like that would work if every writer would be on the same deadline, but alas, they are spread over the course of a year or so. They're not being written concurrently. By the time author of adventure 1 is gone and done, author of adventure 6 likely didn't start working on it yet. With the reality of the industry being that majority of writers are freelancers who live off gigs or write adventures after hours of their primary jobs, extra coordination becomes more complicated.
And yet a single planning session at the start of the AP of a few hours is not that complicated to set up. People show up for work punctually on a daily basis all over the world because they want to get paid.
I always thought it was more your second paragraph than an inability to get a group discussion happening.
Paizo have to be aware of those groups who do regard all NPCs as potential targets.
I suspect it’s also impacted by the constraint (admittedly self-imposed, but probably commercially sensible) of ensuring each can be easily played as a stand-alone module.
I'm not sure I ever heard that self-constraint being mentioned even once by James or any other developer.
And, honestly, writing against the worst case scenario of a group of total chuckleheads who kill everyone seems like a bad idea if you want to give players a coherent story. It's better to write for the average group, who don't go on killing sprees among their allies, and let GM's deal with the outlier groups who are composed of angsty teenagers.
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Your suggestion is certainly a good one, but it's not realistic with how Paizo has to publish their adventures. It's been explained a million plus times on this board, so I won't rehash it.
It's best to wait for all six installments before running an adventure path and make good use of the forums and the GM threads for each adventure. Input from other players and the authors can help clear up confusing parts of the AP.
I'm not sure I ever heard that self-constraint being mentioned even once by James or any other developer.I always thought it was more your second paragraph than an inability to get a group discussion happening.
Paizo have to be aware of those groups who do regard all NPCs as potential targets.
I suspect it’s also impacted by the constraint (admittedly self-imposed, but probably commercially sensible) of ensuring each can be easily played as a stand-alone module.
I'm afraid I don't have a link, but I'm sure James has directly expressed that as a goal (I think both Erik Mona and Vic Wertz have alluded to it as well, over the years). I confess it could have been a fan theorising, but I'm pretty sure it was from the horse's mouth (one of the horses, anyhow).
Granted my recollection is from a while ago - back when APs were a new thing, so perhaps they are more comfortable thinking of them as a block now.
And, honestly, writing against the worst case scenario of a group of total chuckleheads who kill everyone seems like a bad idea if you want to give players a coherent story. It's better to write for the average group, who don't go on killing sprees among their allies, and let GM's deal with the outlier groups who are composed of angsty teenagers.
From a commercial perspective, I don't think you should write for either group - I think you should rather write to appeal to as many groups as possible. I suspect doing so involves compromising in all sorts of ways. Ultimately, people like you and me who view an AP as one coherent whole will from time to time run into threads we wish had carried over from one book to another - provided there's bare bones there for us to make it work on our own (enough that we keep buying them) then there isn't a commercial reason to address our needs more and potentially lose the hypothetical cohort of customers who maybe look around for gothic castle adventures and pick up AP11 on its own. Similarly, I'm sure there are people who regard the "high roleplay" APs as duds - they want the plot to be straightforward with good people to help and bad people to kill. Their money is as good as ours.
I think as fans it's hard to remember all the disparate groups who may be buying the same product as us for different reasons. For example, I've seen lots of people opt-in and opt-out of various APs based on what they think of the adventures' theme. I really struggle to understand that mindset (I mean it's perfectly rational, I just can't picture myself ever making that call).
Even if I know for a fact I'll never run a particular AP, I don't drop my subscription because the backmatter articles are actually more important to me than the adventure itself. To me it "doesn't make sense" to drop an AP based on the adventure, whereas if the backmatter stuff were to go (or to drop off in quality) then I may well cease my subscription - I'm sure there are plenty who would think I'm the one not making sense.
Ultimately, I think product lines like APs with such a broad target market are probably inevitably going to feature compromises. No matter who we are, we're likely to find things we wish they'd done differently - but there's nearly always going to be someone in the exact opposite camp. Paizo walk a difficult line - I suspect it's quite frustrating from a creative point of view at times.
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I have mentioned before that having stand-alone adventures is one of the most important part of adventures. If everything ties into a single Adventure Path, that's not only far more difficult to pull off than a stand-alone (after all, a stand-alone adventure doesn't need to have the same developer as an Adventure Path, and the stand-alone adventure author doesn't have to be extraordinarily familiar with the 20,000 some word outline and details that an Adventure Path author has to study), but perhaps more importantly, it gives gamers a choice for something else if they're not into the current Adventure Path.
It also allows us to explore locations and themes and ideas that aren't appropriate for a potential Adventure Path link.
It also lets individual groups swap out GMs more easily, since unlinked adventures don't require the same GM for a group.
A few very strong reasons, as examples, why stand-alone adventures are much more viable and attractive for us to publish than linking everything to an Adventure Path.
(Working on 1/3 of Dungeon's print run also gave me plenty of evidence that folks do prefer variety overall... the Adventure Paths have always been popular, but they aren't for everyone.)
EDIT: That all said, I'm always looking for suggestions for how we present adventures, always eager to hear what folks like and dislike about our formats and presentations. (And remember... be vocal about things you like too; on average, the internet tends to be a place only for complaints and if we don't hear that something is successful, a vocal minority might end up suggesting changes to things most folks enjoy...)
So please keep the suggestions coming, but keep in mind that linking stand-alone adventures to Adventure Paths is a bad idea for us for many reasons (see above).
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In general I am happy that you guys have brought out more roleplaying heavy adventure paths in the last years, like Hell's Rebels and War for the Crown. I still appreciate the more classical adventure paths as well, like I presume Return of the Runelords will be.
The thing I most want is the same I wanted during discussions we had when Jade Regent and Wrath of the Righteous came out, i.e. NPC's with distinct personalities which accompany the group during the entire AP and which also have a connection to the story throughout the entirety of the adventure path. I feel very strongly that this helps to invest players in the overall story and ties it all together in a better package. The main problem we've had with NPC's in those adventure paths in the past was that after their introductory module they were abandoned by the other writers and each GM had to make up a storyline for them by themselves.
Experience from Jade Regent and Wrath of the Righteous also indicates that the number of those NPC's should be limited to two or three, because otherwise it is very difficult to give them enough spotlight to make them distinct from each other.
Otherwise the timeline what each principal NPC player of the AP is doing in each module, as you had in Wrath of the Righteous, would be very appreciated. That was good stuff and it's a bit of a shame that it wasn't adopted for every AP going forward.
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I'll just point out to magnuskn's comment about getting together, is that given the diversity of projects the authors are working on they could easily have 4-6 such meetings per week all with slightly different author teams to standardize efforts on all the different product lines.
You want them to do that at expense of their sleep, family time or their full time job? Asking for a friend.
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Another "wrinkle" is that the six authors often live in wildly different time zones, and unlike in-house writers whose job IS this stuff, freelance authors have full-time jobs that they need to manage as well. Organizing a meeting across potentially six different time zones so that all six authors can reliably meet together via Skype or whatever at the same time week after week is pretty much impossible.
The job of making each part sync together and tell the same story and do all the foreshadowing and callbacks and stuff is the developer's job, NOT the author's job. The author writes 1/6 of the adventure path, following the outline created by the developer, and then the developer adjusts the author's turnover as needed to make all six parts work together.
The developer is akin to a movie's director. It's not uncommon for a movie, to take the analogy further, to have multiple authors, but it's VERY rare for a movie to have more than one director, and I can't really think of any non-anthology movie that has more than 2 directors on it off the top of my head.
The Wachowski siblings work together, as do the Sperig brothers. They usually divide the duties into action and actors. But James' point still stands.
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The Wachowski siblings work together, as do the Sperig brothers. They usually divide the duties into action and actors. But James' point still stands.
And in fact that's EXACTLY my point where I mentioned that two directors happens now and then but is very rare.
So, basically still the same paradigms as five years ago.
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So, basically still the same paradigms as five years ago.
Switching editions is the PERFECT time to look at how we present information in adventures, so by that metric, no, not the same paradigms at all.
But having everything we publish be only supporting one storyline? That's not an option.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your complaint/concern/comment, though.
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No, sorry. I meant that basically what you said a few posts above is, to my recollection at least, the exact same you said a few years ago when this topic came up, in regards to how having the writers get together is difficult, because time zones, freelance work and fulltime jobs.
I think you now added that it is the developers job to coordinate (though I could be wrong and you also said that a few years ago... it has been quite a long time). Well, in that case I rescind my point that the writers themselves should get together and coordinate.
Still, I keep my suggestions about giving a few NPC's long term stories over the entire AP and that reintroducing the NPC story progressions from the inside covers of Wrath of the Righteous would be a good idea. Maybe that way story development suggestions for NPC's could be easily inserted. :)
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No, sorry. I meant that basically what you said a few posts above is, to my recollection at least, the exact same you said a few years ago when this topic came up, in regards to how having the writers get together is difficult, because time zones, freelance work and fulltime jobs.
I think you now added that it is the developers job to coordinate (though I could be wrong and you also said that a few years ago... it has been quite a long time). Well, in that case I rescind my point that the writers themselves should get together and coordinate.
Still, I keep my suggestions about giving a few NPC's long term stories over the entire AP and that reintroducing the NPC story progressions from the inside covers of Wrath of the Righteous would be a good idea. Maybe that way story development suggestions for NPC's could be easily inserted. :)
Ah; yeah. In that case, it's the same as it has been.
Having NPCs be important across volumes is something I've always been fond of and has been, at least for the Adventure Paths I've developed, something I've tried to include. It's certainly the case with some NPCs in Return of the Runelords.
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Excellent. :) I'm very much looking forward to this adventure path (and I am running Shattered Star for my group now, to give them the entire trilogy). I'll await anxiously to see what the entire storyline is. :D
Sorry to come back late after being gone a few days, but my questions was definitely more along the lines of
I think the OP's point was less "the books of each AP are not well connected" and more "the GM has to reference all of the books in multiple locations to figure out the overall plot structure."
I didn't mean to rehash the difficulties of coordinating six different authors.
My thoughts were more along the lines of "Given that Paizo learned better presentation techniques to make the PF/SF RPG lines more accessible, what lessons learned might help the AP presentation?"
Latrecis' idea of a GM's Guide is interesting and perhaps a separate document might work well. I hadn't considered such an option and I suspect Paizo would prefer to not have to create an additional document.
To be fair to Paizo, James' comments about trying to have important NPCs span multiple volumes certainly features in multiple APs and I certainly appreciate each installment being built with the ability to stand on its own.
While I wasn't forum-lurking much of late, my Starfinder adaptation of Strange Aeons continued. In trying to piece together Lowls' plans and timetable, I discovered that the NPC Weirlalai appears in volume 2 and again in volume 5 and plays a pretty significant role despite not being mentioned in several volumes. I also discovered additional info throughout the various volumes that provided beneficial context to earlier installments. While I appreciate that this added emphasis provides context where the authors feel it's most relevant to the story, it would still be extremely helpful to have this information contained in one place. Sometimes tidbits are revealed in encounter area descriptions and NPC backgrounds rather than in the adventure background.
Since I'm adapting parts of the AP, although it's time-consuming it's not catastrophic. However, I know that if I were running this AP, I would almost certainly slip up relevant details or timing and would run the risk of frustrating my players by having them doubt info they should come to learn as fact or frustrate me for looking ill-prepared in running the campaign.
I know it's a tough nut but I'm still hoping Paizo finds a way to crack it in future PF & SF APs.
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I agree with the sentiment that more DM-friendly treatment would be nice in an AP. It's commonly accepted that owning the entire AP before you run it makes for the best experience. This has proven true with every AP I've started, whether I started early or when all volumes are available. In that vein, I'd like to see the synopsis section of the first installment expanded into something with more detail. Layout who is important to the story and why, what things the DM needs to keep in mind right at the start, and call out any aspects that will be important later. I'm loathe to suggest a separate DM Guide like the Player's Guide because I'm sure there are workload concerns there. But I'd be willing to give up extra content (a couple pages?) in the first installment to get this.
These are things the Developer should know early on, yes? Are they known for the entire AP before the first installment is finalized for printing? If so, a DM Guide of sorts in the first issue would be very welcome, and I think it would also allow Paizo to explore some more complex AP setups. Anything that minimizes that "own the whole AP before you start" paradigm would be really useful. While I never make use of the ability to run one piece of an AP by itself, I can understand the appeal for a wider audience, at least a little. But I don't think it would be terrible to, on occasion, ignore that goal for an AP and really go all in on connectivity and related sub-plots or whatever else. It's an Adventure Path... the onus should be on the standalone user to make it work, not hobble the content to widen the appeal... that's what the Module line is for... in my opinion only of course.
The AP line is the most important product for me outside the core game rules themselves. Modules are ok, but my group greatly preferred a longer, more involved story, even though we didn't finish many of the ones we started.
One improvement I’d like to see is in regards to the digital maps. I love the fact that there is an option for a players view but I find that with this feature on, some maps still show secret doors and/or traps.
In my own games I take the time to mask each room so I can reveal the rooms as the players explore. I always have to do extra work when secret doors or traps exist. I can’t see this being a difficult request and it would greatly be appreciated.
I'd give my left fang for a timeline in many of the APs. My player is very much a Detective at heart, and trying to make a consistent timeline for, say, Rise of the Runelords 3 or Ruins of Azlant 1 that is not contradicted by the text anywhere...is very hard work, and I usually miss something. (Actually I think that for Rise of the Runelords 3 it can't be done. But the act of making a timeline might lead to improvements in that regard, too.)
I'd throw in the right fang if Ruins of Azlant 1 also had a list of every named NPC. It does list the professions of all of them--if only there were names in that list! Otherwise I name them on the fly and then find out that, darn it, they had names already.
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I'd give my left fang for a timeline in many of the APs. My player is very much a Detective at heart, and trying to make a consistent timeline for, say, Rise of the Runelords 3 or Ruins of Azlant 1 that is not contradicted by the text anywhere...is very hard work, and I usually miss something. (Actually I think that for Rise of the Runelords 3 it can't be done. But the act of making a timeline might lead to improvements in that regard, too.)
I'd throw in the right fang if Ruins of Azlant 1 also had a list of every named NPC. It does list the professions of all of them--if only there were names in that list! Otherwise I name them on the fly and then find out that, darn it, they had names already.
If you're talking about a timeline of the events leading up to the Adventure Path's start, then yes, that'll be something in Return of the Runelords. I don't really see how a timeline of things after the start is possible to do though.
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I'd give my left fang for a timeline in many of the APs. My player is very much a Detective at heart, and trying to make a consistent timeline for, say, Rise of the Runelords 3 or Ruins of Azlant 1 that is not contradicted by the text anywhere...is very hard work, and I usually miss something. (Actually I think that for Rise of the Runelords 3 it can't be done. But the act of making a timeline might lead to improvements in that regard, too.)
I'd throw in the right fang if Ruins of Azlant 1 also had a list of every named NPC. It does list the professions of all of them--if only there were names in that list! Otherwise I name them on the fly and then find out that, darn it, they had names already.
Perhaps Paizo could do something similar for new APs as they did in Hell's Rebels? In HR there is a quick thing at the beginning of nearly all 6 books saying what the bad guys have been up to in the previous book. It makes it much easier to find without having to flip through the entire thing and try to parse it all together yourself. It's not a 'set in stone' timeline but more of a 'during the previous adventure this guy was doing this thing'.
As for listing NPCs and something about them all, that would be wonderful! Something like what appears in Dragon's Demand. (They have a list of business names, what the business is, how many people work there, main religion/faction they're a part of, name of the main person, disposition towards the group with a one word description of the personality.)
They wouldn't be able to have it for all of the NPCs for the AP in a single book (accept perhaps the final book of the AP) but having a chart like that for each book could help significantly!
In preparing for Hell's Rebels I created a list of the 150+ NPCs that are mentioned throughout the 6 books. It would've been significantly easier if there was a page listing them all.
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I'd give my left fang for a timeline in many of the APs. My player is very much a Detective at heart, and trying to make a consistent timeline for, say, Rise of the Runelords 3 or Ruins of Azlant 1 that is not contradicted by the text anywhere...is very hard work, and I usually miss something. (Actually I think that for Rise of the Runelords 3 it can't be done. But the act of making a timeline might lead to improvements in that regard, too.)
I'd throw in the right fang if Ruins of Azlant 1 also had a list of every named NPC. It does list the professions of all of them--if only there were names in that list! Otherwise I name them on the fly and then find out that, darn it, they had names already.
Perhaps Paizo could do something similar for new APs as they did in Hell's Rebels? In HR there is a quick thing at the beginning of nearly all 6 books saying what the bad guys have been up to in the previous book. It makes it much easier to find without having to flip through the entire thing and try to parse it all together yourself. It's not a 'set in stone' timeline but more of a 'during the previous adventure this guy was doing this thing'.
As for listing NPCs and something about them all, that would be wonderful! Something like what appears in Dragon's Demand. (They have a list of business names, what the business is, how many people work there, main religion/faction they're a part of, name of the main person, disposition towards the group with a one word description of the personality.)
They wouldn't be able to have it for all of the NPCs for the AP in a single book (accept perhaps the final book of the AP) but having a chart like that for each book could help significantly!
In preparing for Hell's Rebels I created a list of the 150+ NPCs that are mentioned throughout the 6 books. It would've been significantly easier if there was a page listing them all.
This is excellent feedback! If you see us do something in an adventure (such as the NPC check-ins for Hell's Rebels, or the character bios on the inside covers of Wrath of the Righteous), make SURE you let us know you like them! Not only does that give us specific feedback, but it tells us something we've done works well and we can go back to it without really spending much time figuring out behind-the-scenes stuff like formatting and the like. It's easier for us to take an example of something we've already done and use it as a template rather than start from scratch.
As for a full list of all NPCs in an Adventure Path... that's something we could do but it wouldn't be a thing we could even START until the last Adventure Path was wrapped and shipped... which happens after the first adventure path in a series is in print and available, typically. So it's pretty close to impossible for us at this point to do something like this and have it available on day 1.
Perhaps Paizo could do something similar for new APs as they did in Hell's Rebels? In HR there is a quick thing at the beginning of nearly all 6 books saying what the bad guys have been up to in the previous book. It makes it much easier to find without having to flip through the entire thing and try to parse it all together yourself. It's not a 'set in stone' timeline but more of a 'during the previous adventure this guy was doing this thing'.
As for listing NPCs and something about them all, that would be wonderful! Something like what appears in Dragon's Demand. (They have a list of business names, what the business is, how many people work there, main religion/faction they're a part of, name of the main person, disposition towards the group with a one word description of the personality.)
They wouldn't be able to have it for all of the NPCs for the AP in a single book (accept perhaps the final book of the AP) but having a chart like that for each book could help significantly!
In preparing for Hell's Rebels I created a list of the 150+ NPCs that are mentioned throughout the 6 books. It would've been significantly easier if there was a page listing them all.
Thank you for the post full of awesome. I had forgotten about these specific items in HR & DD that you call out. These are excellent examples of improvements I'd like to see more of in APs.
I love the APs, have all the ones published under Paizo (missing the old Dungeon era ones :( ). For most of them I wouldn't dream of running the AP until I have at least 1/2-2/3rd of the books in hand, because there's often a fair number of plot critical items to know about before you tweak/adjust to players actions. Wrath I felt did the best job of the ones I've run of giving enough information in each book to run "in real time" as books are released without missing.
Personally, I'd be happy losing 1-2 pages from the supplementary articles if it meant more "guidance to GMs" in the front of "what's happening behind the scenes", "critical plot points", etc. Some APs have them, some don't. I'd just like to see them more consistent. I'd love to be able to run APs as they are released to avoid spoiler/etc, but feel right now if I do that I risk messing the story up and/or would miss interesting foreshadowing/backstory tie-ins.
Other things I'd love, would be better scheduling tie-ins to some of the accessory lines. I understand that the miniatures are under the control of WizKids so those don't always tie in a timely manner. But I'd love if the Pawns cam out closer to book 1 than book 6. I've love some other attempts at Face Cards again (but larger format, and again near book 1), or the map folios near book 1.
I understand that your process doesn't probably have art locked in for book 4-6 when book 1 is shipping, so yup its hard, but it would be very nice. Even if there were a way to split the pawn collections into part 1 and part 2, to only have a 3 month delay, etc.
I just impulse purchased the crazy platinum edition thing of a 5e adventure, just because I want to see what they think such a think looks like -- I would love to see similar offerings for PF. I have the deluxe collectors RoRL, and love the inclusion of the handouts in the book. I'll probably never play it since its not PF.
Timelines are a tricky thing and I think Mary may have been noting things *during* an adventure as well. My most recent example is War for the Crown part 2 where there is a mention of Persona phases. The first two are noted to occur within the week of downtime between modules. Then the bulk of them are simply noted by number (8 of them) but there the timeline given is once per week. This kind of implies (loosely) that there should be 8 weeks between the PCs arriving and the beginning of Part 3. But when the second set of Persona phases started I immediately had a player ask 'why aren't we getting two of them per week now'.
This is complicated by references in an adventure that says things like "three days later" or whatnot. Where possible, timelines should be based and addressed on plot points, not hard time frames, and usually Paizo does this. Even sandbox adventures should provide some sort of guidance of what happens when, even if it's a grouping of encounters by level and/or rough time frame. However, with downtime being a hard system now (even more so in 2e), better defined timelines for adventures are going to be needed.
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I love the APs in general.
As for specific favorite parts (from Dungeon to today), those have always been deep backstories and histories (such as in CotCT & S.Star), the exceptionally dynamic, complicated NPCs (such as Nualia and Aravashnial), and the involved, complex roleplaying opportunities (such as in HR and WftC).
But as I've said for ten years -- I feel that the six volume format every time isn't best. An occasional six volume, occasional three volume or four volume, etc. would be better because, in the same way that 'one-type-of-adventure-design-does-Not-fit-all' -- neither does one-Size-adventure fit all groups.
I remember being completely understanding and appeased ten years ago when Jacobs explained that a fixed schedule is crucial for Paizo's operations, that juggling lengths of APs (especially the risk because it's the flagship line of products) is a poor decision.
But I bring it up again because, you know, it has been a decade and who knows. It seems as though for each one person on the Boards who wants longer APs -- APs that go to 20th Level -- there are five to ten more who never play through an entire AP (even they they intend to). The Six Volume AP is such a time commitment that many groups never complete one.
All that said, I'll reiterate, in general I love the APs. (But am not bothered by turning off my Charter Subscription if one doesn't tickle my fancy, such as Skull & Shackles and Iron Gods where I did temporarily turn off my Charter subscription for six months at a time.)
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Organizing a meeting across potentially six different time zones so that all six authors can reliably meet together via Skype or whatever at the same time week after week is pretty much impossible.
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That's something I'd not thought of previously, so perhaps the easy solution that immediately popped in my head is something you guys already do--
Isn't there a way to make a 'closed' or 'invisible-to-the-public' Play By Post Thread on the Forums here where the various freelance authors and developers can hash many things out on their own time? You could change it so the various Tabs in the Online Campaign have more appropriate nomenclature: "Volume 1," Volume 2," "Lead Design Framework," "Discussion," Recurring NPCs," whatever.
And the various members on the Development Team, editorial staff and freelance authors can, at their individual convenience, peruse the Threads they need to continue their own work.
Or, if that is impossible, Obsidian Portal already has it -- you just have to go out-of-house.
(Of course, typing this out, I can't believe you don't already have something like this well in place.)
I love the APs in general.
As for specific favorite parts (from Dungeon to today), those have always been deep backstories and histories (such as in CotCT & S.Star), the exceptionally dynamic, complicated NPCs (such as Nualia and Aravashnial), and the involved, complex roleplaying opportunities (such as in HR and WftC).But as I've said for ten years -- I feel that the six volume format every time isn't best. An occasional six volume, occasional three volume or four volume, etc. would be better because, in the same way that 'one-type-of-adventure-design-does-Not-fit-all' -- neither does one-Size-adventure fit all groups.
I remember being completely understanding and appeased ten years ago when Jacobs explained that a fixed schedule is crucial for Paizo's operations, that juggling lengths of APs (especially the risk because it's the flagship line of products) is a poor decision.
But I bring it up again because, you know, it has been a decade and who knows. It seems as though for each one person on the Boards who wants longer APs -- APs that go to 20th Level -- there are five to ten more who never play through an entire AP (even they they intend to). The Six Volume AP is such a time commitment that many groups never complete one.
This is also something I think could be done in their module line. Put the occasional links for 2, 3 or 4 modules together to make smaller sets. If they start breaking things down to this size though, there may then be a need to start at something other than 1st level. The great thing about linking modules is that it doesn't have to be done up front in the development process. The person(s) that write module 2 (or later) just have to provide the linkage with module 1 (or later). I have occasionally wondered if an author somewhere sees a module and thinks "hmm, I can think of a kick butt follow up to that", but it never gets tossed around given how the work is schedule.
DISCLAIMER: I don't buy modules... I've only ever bought the APs due to preferences and I simply couldn't afford to buy every product Paizo makes, no matter how good said products may be. The only times I've been tempted is when I see forum posts indicating a link from an AP (or story from one) to a module.
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The reason I use Paizo products is because of the writing, not the crunch. Focus on maintaining excellence in the narrative storytelling possibilities you help DMs unlock. I like the subsystems, but I don't buy APs for that.
I like the variety within APs and by AP. I like that there's some set-pieces for skills/investigation/RP and for combat crawls, providing some structure to sandboxes. While APs that are dominantly combat crawls, I'm fine with it because I can yank out pieces that I need for my campaigns and I recognize that beer and pretzels, kick in the door style is valid and fun too.
I like re-visiting areas. I'm doing Hell's Rebels now, but Council of Thieves provides important depth of understanding of Chelaxian culture. It also provides things like meals, plays, and yoinkable manors.
I like the wandering monster page. Even though I NEVER use them as wandering monsters, it is more like a page of encounter hooks. Even simply knowing that there's gambling devils loose in the city tells me something. The vampire sorcerers on the table in Hell's Rebels gives me a clue as to what resources Aluceda Zhol has available to her.
I love the religion articles. It provides such a wealth on the rituals, faiths, clothing, parishioners, mythology of the religion. It's absolutely crucial as a guide to behavior for not just divine characters, but other types of PCs who are deeply influenced by faiths. Same deal with the nations, although I get a better sense of those from the splat books.
I like the illustrations of characters. The art is a major plus for your style and world building.
I like it when there's a few flavor NPCs, so I have options for something better than Carl the Unlucky Sausage Vendor.
I like it when the BBEG shows up in the first adventure and acts on the party in most of the adventures. Barzillai Thrune is an amazing antagonist. The Queen in Crimson Throne is similarly well-done. Keep doing that.
I think you should re-read some of the critiques of your theory of how revolution and organizing works in the Hell's Rebels forum. I love that you provide space for heroes to change the world, not just save it. Keep doing that. Saving the world is profoundly conservative: the quest to save the status quo. Giving heroes the agency to change it is progressive and important.
I like that you indicate when PCs should be what level. I don't use XP and this makes it easy to be flexible to what I want to spend my limited time per month on without needing to grind for PCs to level by the numbers.
I like subsystems, like kingdom building, and I'm glad you provide advice for those who don't like them. I like new kinds of modeling of adventure, like troops as a way of making low-level forces a threat to medium-level PCs. For APs like Crimson Throne, Hell's Rebels, War for the Crown, Kingmaker, and Skull an Shackles, you need to have a viable system of downtime, managing businesses, and trading. Make that a priority for it unlocks certain kinds of storytelling that you like to do, despite the bias against it.
If it's not going to be used in the AP, however, I could do without pages devoted to new monsters. That's what bestiaries are for.
Cast of characters might be good bonus web content. Timelines, however, would be too tempting a spoiler for many players to resist as free bonus web content. At least with players who read the book ... they have to read the book, a more significant commitment.
As someone who works with colleagues across the country, digital communications and collaboration technologies from slack to email to google docs allow for asynchronous modes of collaborative authorship. I don't really think your "it's complicated because of time zones argument" is very persuasive. And if you're saying that depending on part-time, freelance labor interferes with the quality of your flagship product, that's a sign that you should be hiring more full-time employees. As someone who worked "part-time" in higher education for 16 years, you should think about how the gig economy erodes the moral authority of a progressive-leaning company. At least you're not like the colleges and universities that complain they can't afford to have even a majority of their workers be full time while they brag about the hundreds of millions of dollars they have in their endowment. But availability of full-time employment is a key part of retaining the viability of this hobby and this company plays an important role in its future.
I don't know how long the writers should work given some of them might be freelance.
I just would like the same group to work on the AP. We might have read it wrong but my Iron Gods group looked at the credits page and saw different writers for each book or at least every other one. The whole set feels pretty janky at parts and feels like it was stopped only to be picked up by different writers.
I don't know how to advise fixing it, but I'd like for APs to have a better flow to them than this
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Definitely have to point out how I loved how Crimson Throne hardcover kept mentioning at start of each chapter what npcs were doing in the background. And one of things I find annoying about Jade Regent is that important NPCs disappear after first book and its never told what they actually do besides travel with you
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I just would like the same group to work on the AP. We might have read it wrong but my Iron Gods group looked at the credits page and saw different writers for each book or at least every other one. The whole set feels pretty janky at parts and feels like it was stopped only to be picked up by different writers.
That's how the APs have always worked: each installment is by a different writer.* Iirc, they've said that that's the only way to stick to the one-per-month schedule is to assign the six parts basically all at once.
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All of Paizo's APs are written by six different authors with most of them being freelancers.
This comes out of several factors, not the least the fact that Paizo's business model is built around monthly products and committing all six adventures to one author risks a massive hiccup if that author fails to deliver on time. With six different authors, the amount of work you need to cover in-house/with a different freelancer is far smaller.