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I had been under the impression that signature skills limited what you could bump from "Master" to "Legend". According to Friday's Twitch stream, they limit what you can bump from "Expert" to "Master". Classes seem to generally have four skills that are signature skills. That seems like a huge limitation on variety; not only can I not keep investing in the skills I want, but if I want to have any master-level skills, I need to invest in those instead. I'm sure I can spend a skill feat to add a signature skill, but between that and the new take-ten being a skill feat (for each skill), I feel like you need to spend a bunch of skill feats on frustratingly boring things.
Overall, I'm still pumped for PF2 and the playtest. I'm glad for the opportunity to provide feedback on this sort of thing. But being pigeon-holed is really gonna bug me.
He did also say there are tons of ways to get extra signature skills, so we have to see what that actually means.
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A lot of this will depend on how hard it winds up being to pick up more signature skills. But... Yeah, I kind of agree.
It is a shame that that tighter math probably doesn't allow for signature skills to give you a bonus, as opposed to restricting how far you can take anything else. Maybe they can come up with something else. If nothing else, you could move the limit from Master to Legendary.
Edit: Another acceptable solution might be letting signature skills get their proficiency upgraded earlier than other skills.
Pirate dedication gets you acrobatics as signature skill. Sea Legs gets you athletics signature skill. So I think a number of class/ancestry feats will get you additional signature skills.
So what grants Legendary proficiency (I hear it unlocks powerful Skill Feats)?
Once you're high enough level, you can start bumping Master-level skills to Legend. If you don't have it as a signature skill, you can't get it to Master-level in the first place, it would seem.
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Pirate dedication gets you acrobatics as signature skill. Sea Legs gets you athletics signature skill. So I think a number of class/ancestry feats will get you additional signature skills.
Yeah. That's even worse than spending a skill feat tax on it, though, because I'm giving up part of my class build to take something that grants the skill I want (if there's something available for it). In some cases, there will happen to be a feat you want anyway that grants it.
Pirate dedication gets you acrobatics as signature skill. Sea Legs gets you athletics signature skill. So I think a number of class/ancestry feats will get you additional signature skills.Yeah. That's even worse than spending a skill feat tax on it, though, because I'm giving up part of my class build to take something that grants the skill I want (if there's something available for it). In some cases, there will happen to be a feat you want anyway that grants it.
To me it is only worse than a feat tax if all you get for the feat is a signature skill. I expect we will see a lot of class feats that give you some ability and also add a signature skill. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if there were also skill feats that did this as well.
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It seems too early for this kind of flag waving. Too much of the skill system, skill feats, general feats and even class progression is still unseen.
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Pirate dedication gets you acrobatics as signature skill. Sea Legs gets you athletics signature skill. So I think a number of class/ancestry feats will get you additional signature skills.Yeah. That's even worse than spending a skill feat tax on it, though, because I'm giving up part of my class build to take something that grants the skill I want (if there's something available for it). In some cases, there will happen to be a feat you want anyway that grants it.
The mere fact that those Feats exist and give both a Signature Skill and other benefits sort of implies that other ways to gain Signature Skills probably grant more than just the Signature Skill.
For example, I believe the Paladin Feat that ups your Lay On Hands dice from d4s to d6s also gives you Medicine as a Signature Skill, and the Pickpocket Skill Feat gives Thievery as a Signature Skill on top of whatever else it does.
So I'm a bit less worried about this than I might be otherwise.
Another thing worth noting is that Class's number of starting skills (which seems to range from 3 for Fighter and Barbarian to around 8 for Rogue) appears to be the same as their number of Signature Skills (Mark Seifter even mentioned giving the Fighter a new Signature Skill if they upped the Fighter's number of skills). So some Classes will have more than 4, I'm sure (probably Bard, Ranger, and Rogue, going by PF1). Some will also have less, but I'm really hoping that at least the Martial Classes all go up to 4+Int Skills, and thus 4 Signature Skills, by the time the playtest is complete.
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The thing that’s bugging me is in large part that if a character wants to get full progression in something flavorful, it’s going to cost extra on top of giving up a more practical option. I doubt Monk gets Perform as a class feat signature skill, or Sorcerer gets Lore except by picking a certain bloodline. I really don’t see Fighter getting many of these at all.
The thing that’s bugging me is in large part that if a character wants to get full progression in something flavorful, it’s going to cost extra on top of giving up a more practical option. I doubt Monk gets Perform as a class feat signature skill, or Sorcerer gets Lore except by picking a certain bloodline. I really don’t see Fighter getting many of these at all.
I assumed lore would always be a signature skill similar to craft/profession etc in PF1. If that isn't the case maybe it should be at least for the lore skill provided by background.
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The thing that’s bugging me is in large part that if a character wants to get full progression in something flavorful, it’s going to cost extra on top of giving up a more practical option. I doubt Monk gets Perform as a class feat signature skill, or Sorcerer gets Lore except by picking a certain bloodline. I really don’t see Fighter getting many of these at all.I assumed lore would always be a signature skill similar to craft/profession etc in PF1. If that isn't the case maybe it should be at least for the lore skill provided by background.
This is almost certainly correct. Lore's probably a Signature Skill for everyone, or the Gnome 'Obsessive' Ancestry Feat (which gives a Lore Skill that auto-upgrades all the way to Legendary) would need additional text (involving 'this counts as a Signature Skill',) which it does not have.
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This is almost certainly correct. Lore's probably a Signature Skill for everyone, or the Gnome 'Obsessive' Ancestry Feat (which gives a Lore Skill that auto-upgrades all the way to Legendary) would need additional text (involving 'this counts as a Signature Skill',) which it does not have.The thing that’s bugging me is in large part that if a character wants to get full progression in something flavorful, it’s going to cost extra on top of giving up a more practical option. I doubt Monk gets Perform as a class feat signature skill, or Sorcerer gets Lore except by picking a certain bloodline. I really don’t see Fighter getting many of these at all.I assumed lore would always be a signature skill similar to craft/profession etc in PF1. If that isn't the case maybe it should be at least for the lore skill provided by background.
Druid doesn’t list it as a signature skill, and the gnome ability wouldn’t need to grant it as a signature skill if it just grants proficiency increases directly. Later, I’ll go see if the character sheet for Barbarian has it marked off! I agree; I’d be surprised if Lore weren’t broadly available as a signature, but what I’ve seen so far isn’t promising there.
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The thing that’s bugging me is in large part that if a character wants to get full progression in something flavorful, it’s going to cost extra on top of giving up a more practical option. I doubt Monk gets Perform as a class feat signature skill, or Sorcerer gets Lore except by picking a certain bloodline. I really don’t see Fighter getting many of these at all.
I’m not sure I understand the desire to spend multiple skill-ups in a skill, but not a single skill feat.
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I'm wondering what happens if you gain signature skill in a skill that is already a signature skill. Not gaining the full benefit of a feat* taken, even if it's a lesser part of that feat*, will feel bad.
*Or other ability.
Given that one of the clearly stated objectives of the game designers has been to give players more choice in PF2, I would expect/hope there to be a number of ways to increase the number of signature skills you have (e.g. could your choice of background give you extra signature skills?).
I've been negative about some aspects of PF2, but this is something I'm willing to trust the design team on and wait until we get more details.
I'm wondering what happens if you gain signature skill in a skill that is already a signature skill. Not gaining the full benefit of a feat* taken, even if it's a lesser part of that feat*, will feel bad.
*Or other ability.
Unfortunately, the moment you provide players with more than one way of getting to an ability, you open up the risk of just this sort of redundancy. I don't know a way out of that, which is one of the (many!) reasons I'm not a game designer :-)
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The thing that’s bugging me is in large part that if a character wants to get full progression in something flavorful, it’s going to cost extra on top of giving up a more practical option. I doubt Monk gets Perform as a class feat signature skill, or Sorcerer gets Lore except by picking a certain bloodline. I really don’t see Fighter getting many of these at all.I’m not sure I understand the desire to spend multiple skill-ups in a skill, but not a single skill feat.
Skill-ups can’t do much interesting. If I didn’t boost one skill, I’d be boosting another. Skill feats, on the other hand, can let you heal, fascinate enemies, or get you an animal pet. I don’t want to give up an interesting new ability just for the option to spend my skill-ups on something so I can get the cooler skill feats for that skill.
Really the rule should just be "If you spend a skill feat in a skill it becomes a signature skill" That way there are no required feats for getting a Signature Skills (don't want every non Rogue with the same feat just to be good at Theivery) but you still have to invest something into a skill before it gets into Master (which you otherwise might just wait until you can get the silly good Skill Feats.)The thing that’s bugging me is in large part that if a character wants to get full progression in something flavorful, it’s going to cost extra on top of giving up a more practical option. I doubt Monk gets Perform as a class feat signature skill, or Sorcerer gets Lore except by picking a certain bloodline. I really don’t see Fighter getting many of these at all.I’m not sure I understand the desire to spend multiple skill-ups in a skill, but not a single skill feat.
I’d be quite happy with this solution. It’d also make those pirate archetype feats sting a lot less if you already have those signature skills- it’d just mean it’s counting as something like a skill feat.
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Really the rule should just be "If you spend a skill feat in a skill it becomes a signature skill" That way there are no required feats for getting a Signature Skills (don't want every non Rogue with the same feat just to be good at Theivery) but you still have to invest something into a skill before it gets into Master (which you otherwise might just wait until you can get the silly good Skill Feats.)The thing that’s bugging me is in large part that if a character wants to get full progression in something flavorful, it’s going to cost extra on top of giving up a more practical option. I doubt Monk gets Perform as a class feat signature skill, or Sorcerer gets Lore except by picking a certain bloodline. I really don’t see Fighter getting many of these at all.I’m not sure I understand the desire to spend multiple skill-ups in a skill, but not a single skill feat.
I'm absolutely fine with that. At the point you are actually investing feats into a skill, it shows your character cares about that skill and it just automatically becomes signature.
Checking the Friday Twitch stream, Lore is not a signature skill for Barbarian (including their background-granted Lore), and taking a feat in a skill doesn’t grant it as a signature skill (they had Assurance in Survival, but didn’t have Survival as a signature skill).
I am actually okay with limiting by default signature skills. I think limitations are important, and it allows room for different classes to have different degrees of specialization and areas for them to shine in. As long as the signature skills make sense for the class, I like it.
Besides they have already mentioned that there will be various ways to get different skills that your class can't be default.
The way that the Skill Progression system works in 2e is that at the MOST you'll get 3 Signature skills to Legendary. (6 if you're a Rogue) Or if you don't want Legendary, 4 Master and 1 Expert. Now the reason someone would want to be Legendary in a Skill is probably to unlock cool abilities through Feats. We get 11 of those. (more if you're a human) So if you focus on the 3 Siganture skills, you can spend 9 feats (3 expert, 3 master, and 3 Legendary) with 2 left over. (1 background and 1 at level 2) Interestingly enough, it looks like some skill feats are not feat trees (Cat Fall, Magical Crafting, and Legendary Medic) while some are. (Legendary Impersonator, Legendary Thief) So if you chose a class that did not have any Signature Skills you wanted, (as unlikely as that is) you'll most likely need to spend 3 feats to get them. That'll leave you around 7 feats to spend on those three Signature Skills. (The Ancestry Feat most likely won't help with them, but if it does then that's 8) So you may be able to get the abilities you want, you may not. It really depends on what you want to do. But from the little we can tell so far, there's lots of room to build the character you want. I'm not seeing too much of an issue, but let's see how the Playtest goes...
I am actually okay with limiting by default signature skills. I think limitations are important, and it allows room for different classes to have different degrees of specialization and areas for them to shine in. As long as the signature skills make sense for the class, I like it.
Besides they have already mentioned that there will be various ways to get different skills that your class can't be default.
Aye, this where I am at as well. Though it does look like there will be a variety of ways to gain signature skills if you so choose. I would also be surprised if further archetypes down the road provide signature skills.
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Checking the Friday Twitch stream, Lore is not a signature skill for Barbarian (including their background-granted Lore), and taking a feat in a skill doesn’t grant it as a signature skill (they had Assurance in Survival, but didn’t have Survival as a signature skill).
That is a solid bit of evidence against my theory. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I like the idea that taking a skill feat makes something a signature skill.
That being said, it feels like backgrounds might be a really good way to pick up unconventional signature skills for cheap.
Ah, I can think of another potential solution. We know that you can spend skill feats to advance a skill. If that also makes it a signature skill, then I don't have as much of a problem with it. (I'd still prefer not having signature skills locking off skill progression, but at least it saves me a skill rank.)
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Because they are referring to Class Feats, not Skill Feats.The thing that’s bugging me is in large part that if a character wants to get full progression in something flavorful, it’s going to cost extra on top of giving up a more practical option. I doubt Monk gets Perform as a class feat signature skill, or Sorcerer gets Lore except by picking a certain bloodline. I really don’t see Fighter getting many of these at all.I’m not sure I understand the desire to spend multiple skill-ups in a skill, but not a single skill feat.
Ahh. I misunderstood their misunderstanding. There are both class feats and skill feats that grant signature skills. Pickpocket, etc.
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Ahh. I misunderstood their misunderstanding. There are both class feats and skill feats that grant signature skills. Pickpocket, etc.Because they are referring to Class Feats, not Skill Feats.The thing that’s bugging me is in large part that if a character wants to get full progression in something flavorful, it’s going to cost extra on top of giving up a more practical option. I doubt Monk gets Perform as a class feat signature skill, or Sorcerer gets Lore except by picking a certain bloodline. I really don’t see Fighter getting many of these at all.I’m not sure I understand the desire to spend multiple skill-ups in a skill, but not a single skill feat.
Well, I also don’t want to spend skill feats just for that. Did we see that the skill feats do something on top of granting signature skill status?
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Well, I also don’t want to spend skill feats just for that. Did we see that the skill feats do something on top of granting signature skill status?
Not provably, though I personally consider it likely. Especially since 'Pickpocket' (the Skill Feat we know does this) is also a prerequisite for higher level Skill Feats (in particular, the one that lets you steal someone's armor right off them).
Well, I also don’t want to spend skill feats just for that. Did we see that the skill feats do something on top of granting signature skill status?Not provably, though I personally consider it likely. Especially since 'Pickpocket' (the Skill Feat we know does this) is also a prerequisite for higher level Skill Feats (in particular, the one that lets you steal someone's armor right off them).
Thanks! Yeah, I’ll take that as sufficient evidence. If Pickpocket didn’t do something else, it couldn’t be a prerequisite (as Rogue would have no use for it).
Well, that removes my main concern. Hopefully the feats are useful ones. I appreciate folks hearing me out!