So I have already alluded to this incident in another thread of mine
I just had the group get confronted after curfew,fail the bluff check refuse to be arrested and murder the three dottari. And I mean literally murder. Two had been stabilised and were then woken up and tortured for information that the group refused to believe they did not have.
They felt that there was no way that they could let the remaining guards go now that they had seen them and seen them drop the ally - who incidentally was coup de graced after a slumber hex mid combat
I need some general tips and also help from this turning ridiculous . I naively thought they would go along with being arrested. I wasn’t clear enough that it would just be a fine when the dottari tried to take them in and the group clearly saw “game over” signs flashing
I don’t think it is an omen for pure murder hobo behaviour they just got paranoid
So my potential mistakes:
- not making it clear in some way the punishment was just a fine (but I don’t believe they would announce this)
- not making at least one run to get back up as they were outnumbered from the start. And especially not making one do this after his ally was CDG’d
- not allowing an aid other on the bluff / diplomacy when caught after curfew (they failed and then tried to bribe the guards by which point they had had enough...)
Some questions:
- should I have let the group all aid other on the bluff/diplomacy to be escorted home?. I am very uneasy about this because it makes the check incredibly easy very quickly and removes the the threat (I suppose unless they are out all night)
DC20 with up to a +6/+8 seems almost pointless and removes the threat . I mean they can still fail but it seems daft
(This is think is the biggest place where I went wrong (as mentioned above) as if they stayed out all night they would probably fail something. At least for the first few levels unless the DC scales)
- the book doesn’t really explain the guard tactics in this instance. Or the consequence of killing one and the others surviving. I assume it is covered by increased notoriety. But my group is going with logic and assume enough of a description can be given that they are basically definitely going to be successfully hunted down the next day if they kill one guard and leave the other two alive
- what would have happened if they had killed one and then realised it had gone too far and agreed to come in. They felt that would be game over but can I somehow get the information out that it might not have been? I don’t believe a single murder is a capital crime in cheliax. (Of course in real life and tv programmes there is a big thing against “cop killers”
- should I cap them at the 4d6 notoriety ? It doesn’t seem like a lot but I do not currently remember the impact of it on the mechanics
On that note why is the notoriety just as high for CCG members as dottari? Is it because they work for Thrune (either as supporters or employees with a favourable view)
- should I attempt a retcon that these guys are part of the citizen group. My group were surprised about how little they knew - but they read down the list of rumours and expected answers on all of them , so too much basically - “weird that he is a member of the watch and doesn’t know what is going on in the city” *rolls eyes
I could put out a rumour or muttering that some CCG thugs stole some guard uniforms and were out playing and are now missing
Or should I make them to deal with the consequences of there actions. They were stupid but I think they were partially coloured by and arguably more logical view of what the consequences could be than what the mechanics/game actually does
- was there any way out without killing all the dottari once they started a fight and murdered one in front on the other two (CDG)?
TLDR: group made poor choices killing guards in a combat . Choices made were poorer because they as players and characters assumed they would be recognised and hunted down in the near future
What can be done to stop this going off the rails and how can it be made clear that they won’t be immediately tracked down by people with detailed police artist drawings of them ?
The characters are all rookies--it's okay if they make mistakes in early encounters before they're famous. Besides, down the line, you can have an enterprising dottari investigate this cold case....
This might be a good thing: perhaps they're going to play as militant guerrilla operation conducting violent terrorist actions. Sounds like an organization focus on Security to me. Alternatively, if they regard it as a bad mistake, it may define their organization through their response to it.
They learned an important lesson about the Disguise skill and its importance to this AP. Perhaps they should have masks when they are out after curfew? Give them a +2 to Disguise for eluding identification only, perhaps?
I'm sure you know this already, but the rebellion penalties are:
• Fight against dottari or Queensmen in public +1d6
• Publicly slaying dottari/Q +1d6
• Private fights/deaths have no effect unless cleanup spotty or body resurfaces
• +1 per body found
So, if anyone saw them do this, +3d6. If just the bodies, +3. You might have an inquisition or team injury effect from a crackdown as the next event. Alternatively, perhaps the new administration just wants this hushed up until they find a patsy to arrest for this crime. Perhaps you have the Queensmen's justification for their illegal excruciation--they think they found a dottari-killer!
Bribing the guards is actually legit, if you phrase it as not a bribe but a donation to a charity or paying the fine on the spot (How to Offer a Bribe, page 6, Cheliax, Empire of Devils ). Sense Motive or Knowledge: Local is likely required here, as a few dottari are likely still on the beat, and they might not take well to a bribe. Stating that it speeds up the bureaucracy, by the way, is a heresy and an arrestable offense--it implies that the state is lax and inefficient. Suggested fines in that source:
o Breaking the peace: 1 sp to 25 gp
o Larceny: 5 sp to 100 gp
o Assault or Battery: 10 sp to 50 gp
o Murder (depending on victim): 200-20K gp
o Blasphemy: 1K to 10K gp
They can prevent a manhunt either by effectively disposing of the bodies... or by mutilating the corpses to prevent Speak with Dead.
I don't think you need a retcon. Why would a Lawful Evil hierarchy give Need to Know information to lowly beat cops? The rest of book 1 will make clear exactly how thorough redaction can be in this town, with the lost info on the Silver Ravens 1.0 and the Fantasmagorium. Explain to the PCs that the people at the top know secrets in Cheliax. The beat cops are first level mooks, not important people, so they know what they need to know to do their jobs. That's especially true days after a takeover by Barzillai and (as I've been playing it) a purge of the non-evil dottari hired by the prior mayor. The ones they killed may be new to the city, brought in from the outlying regions.
In case they do something again, you can give them a knowledge: local check on the spot for some advice from the DM on how something would ordinarily play out.
Funny your group seems to be going through some of the same challenges/approaches as mine. Here's how I've handled it so far - which may or may not be entirely consistent with the AP.
My pc's took out Kossrani and his CCG minions, many with sleep and after the fight decided to kill them. They had no sympathy for the obvious Asmodeus worshipper Kossrani and the others had seen their faces. There was discussion about sparing them but, as with your group, all the Salt Works occupants had seen their faces. Additional detail: the Salt Works crew were clearly working their prisoners to death. Worse both the Dottari and CCG had ambushed the party at the protest and then openly tried to kill them (and Rexus) as they fled the opening scene/riot. Since this happened out of sight, I gave them +1 notoriety for each slain CCG (I included Kossrani in the body count.)
The party waited until night time (after curfew) to attempt a rescue of the victims of the Unsanctioned Excruciation (I'll skip who that was since it's not directly related to the thread.) This worked pretty well - again with sleep but one CCG stayed conscious long enough to get a look at their faces. He fell in combat and was killed while dying. The sleeping CCG were left unconscious. While the fight took place at night after curfew, the CCG had been very very public about the excruciations - it was very well known they were at the park with prisoners. So in my judgement that was a public fight and 1 CCG was killed - 2d6 of Notoriety.
While trying to escort the rescued captives to a place of relative safety, their stealth was not quite what they might have hoped and the wandering monster machine spat out 4 Dottari. Of which 3 were knocked under 0hp in combat and a fourth fled. The group briefly considered pursuing but given the fleeing guard was calling for reinforcements and the group didn't know how many more were in the area, they made sure the remaining dottari were dead and fled the scene. This was sort of in public - in a backstreet alley so I gave them 1d6 of Notoriety for the public fight but only 1 point per dead Dottari for 1d6+3. 3d6+3 for both events combined.
I don't have a problem with the players assuming that anyone caught red-handed (or close to it) killing CCG or Dottari would be dealt with most severely. It's one thing to let you buy your way out of killing someone, it's another thing entirely if that someone is a member of the Thrune government or their closest political supporters. Given the events of the Night of Ashes and the encounters with Dottari and CCG at the riot and immediately thereafter, judging such people to be evil and ruthless seems justified.
The reason the penalty for CCG is the same for Dottari is they are very public supporters of House Thrune and Barzillai in particular - killing them is just as much an assault on House Thrune as an attack on Dottari. It's a reckless disregard of rightful authority and social order.
I would let the Notoriety fall where it falls. The rebellion rules (which it seems you are using) give the Silver Ravens many options for addressing it - Laying Low, Spread Disinformation, Reduce Danger, etc. These are all game mechanic explanations for the Dottari and Thrune having a hard time putting their finger on exactly who did the killing.
I would let them aid another in diplomacy checks - it seems consistent with the game rules. Of course I would point out that the "aid another" check is really a diplomacy check and if they punt it, there might be consequences just like any other failed diplomacy check. Not sure that's RAW but it's how I look at it. This keeps the clod with no CHA and no diplomacy ranks from rolling a d20 for a consequence free shot at +2.
As a follow-up, the jump in Notoriety (and no event the previous turn) led to an Event in the most recent Rebellion game turn - Increase Patrols. I'll omit how they subsequently botched disguise checks while trying to get back over the bridge to the Coffeehouse the morning after the killing of Dottari and had to pay a big bribe to get out of trouble.
Thanks for the responses
Thankfully I think the players have realised that they can't to this every time
I made it clear it was in public. One was actually killed in public and the other 2 clearly dropped to negatives with lethal damage. So I really feel that will be 4d6 on the Notoriety
Do players know their own Notoriety score? Or is it secret? I assume if they are supposed to know it is only as we do each rebellion turn?
I have them handle their organization sheet, although I keep an updated copy for my use as well. They have to be able to make informed decisions as leaders.
I have them handle their organization sheet, although I keep an updated copy for my use as well. They have to be able to make informed decisions as leaders.
Ditto. The mini-game is after all an abstraction - Notoriety is just a short hand for how agitated and focused the government (and associated allies) are on the Silver Ravens. It's a game mechanic the players need to know because it drives the chance for an Event (especially in the week after no Event when the chance for one doubles) and it's a value they can target with actions like Spread Disinformation.
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Your group is throwing rocks at a bank robber with hostages.
I think this is a common tactic employed by many players. Simply put: players aren't use to their characters facing consequences. It's not often in a game that characters have to deal with the same battleground throughout the entirety of a campaign. This adventure path has taken any player who has the murder hobo tactic as a default and challenges the living hell out of them.
I have had players quit this campaign because they were too frustrated with the THREAT of consequences.
I wouldn't ease up on them. Torture is objectively evil AF. Murder is objectively evil AF.
Let me share a story from my campaign, it might give you ideas.
The group was staking out the Salt Works and happened to come across a tiefling street vendor named Ryk. He was smarmy and off putting, but he clearly had no love for the current order and had personal acquaintances detained by the guard. When he found out what the group was doing, he did his best to provide them information.
The group sieged the Salt Works rather quietly but, being their first true covert mission, failed to wear masks or anything hiding their identity. As one, they barged into a room where several citizens group members played cards at a table as the members of Crowe's group were toiling away in the adjacent room.
It was utter confusion as the PCs murderous commanded one CCG member and charged the rest. As the "commanded" Citizens group member punches his ally across the face he stumbles back and runs out the door for help screaming for Dottari.
The prisoners knew they had to get out of there before the Dottari showed up and told the PCs to run.
Instead of a chance meeting elsewhere or wishing them good luck, a tiefling PC (We will call him M), tells Crowe and his men the EXACT location of the group's safe house and then turns to the unarmed Chelish Citizens Group and proceeds to murder them with his bare, clawed, hands.
I was dumbfounded, but not too shocked to fail to describe their pleas for help and mercy, nor did I fail to convey the blood that spattered across the walls and covered M as he bathed in his "righteousness".
(Sidenote: This player cried foul when his alignment shifted from CN to CE)
I didn't come down too hard on the players directly though. They got away and had an in character discussion about how things should be done.
Here is where you might get some ideas though: Remember Ryk? Do you wonder why I mentioned him?
The Chelish Citizens Group described M, but the Dottari couldn't find anyone matching that exact description. But the dottari HAD to find the guilty party. They had to find the Tiefling who murdered the CCG.
When word got out that someone was apprehended and would be excruciated, the PCs were relieved and just assumed the dottari were lying. Yet, they showed up that day to witness the "guilty" party being doghoused. Just before they released the doors... one of the players in the group turned to another and asked "Oh sh*t... do you think they arrested Ryk...!?"
If I was running this campaign, there would ABSOLUTELY be wanted posters all over town describing the group as Cultists of Rovagug. This notice would also be a perfect reason for Barzillai to give a public speech describing the murdered dottari as a father, husband, and son, and about how the NEED for Martial Law has never been greater. Honestly, the PCs would probably lose a few dozen supporters.
TLDR: The Silver Ravens have assumed the responsibility of Kintargo's well being. This is a city (country) that rewrites history to paint itself as the victor and champion. This is also a city that is currently held hostage. Anything the Silver Ravens do, for which they are not caught, should be repackaged and sold in Barzillai's favor. It's time for Barzillai to shoot a hostage.