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In PF1 Charisma was the go to dump stat unless you used it for your class, all other stats impacted you in some meaningful way, Charisma is used for some skills, and that was it.
Now it looks like Intelligence offers nothing other than a bonus to a few skills (like every other stat) with how the skill system has changed, unless your class uses it of course.
Strength is also used for physical damage and carrying capacity
Dexterity is also used for AC and reflex saves
Constitution is also used for HP and fort saves
Wisdom is also used for will saves
Charisma is also used for resonance
Intelligence is also used for... um... I hope I'm missing something.
I hope something comes out or changes to make intelligence worth investing in if your class doesn't use it.
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It seems so far the lowest you can dump a stat too is 8 and that’s only if it’s a race’s flawed stat. So far none of the races we’ve seen have Int as a flaw. So depending on how they work with skills many characters may leave their INT at 10.
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The system doesn't allow dumping stats that much, just like rek said
and seriously I am pretty happy about that
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I suppose dump stat might be a thing for those who use variant systems like point buy or rolling.
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Intelligence doesn't just influence a few skills, it influences HOW MANY you get. Now how good that is depends on how many skills you get anyway. If you get proficiency in (say) only 4 skills before Intelligence, then every + or - is a big deal. If you get 8 then it barely matters.
The skill system has changed drastically in the new version, we don't get skill ranks anymore. I don't think int effects how many skills you get anymore.
It seems so far the lowest you can dump a stat too is 8 and that’s only if it’s a race’s flawed stat. So far none of the races we’ve seen have Int as a flaw. So depending on how they work with skills many characters may leave their INT at 10.
With the ability score generation that is being used I consider a 10 effectively a dump. You're not allocating anything to it, and once a race a negative to int comes along it'll probably a popular choice. But as gustavo pointed out rolled and point buy will dump it if given the chance.
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I guess there is "not bothering to heal INT damage because you're too cheap"
Intelligence doesn't just influence a few skills, it influences HOW MANY you get. Now how good that is depends on how many skills you get anyway. If you get proficiency in (say) only 4 skills before Intelligence, then every + or - is a big deal. If you get 8 then it barely matters.The skill system has changed drastically in the new version, we don't get skill ranks anymore. I don't think int effects how many skills you get anymore.
It seems so far the lowest you can dump a stat too is 8 and that’s only if it’s a race’s flawed stat. So far none of the races we’ve seen have Int as a flaw. So depending on how they work with skills many characters may leave their INT at 10.With the ability score generation that is being used I consider a 10 effectively a dump. You're not allocating anything to it, and once a race a negative to int comes along it'll probably a popular choice. But as gustavo pointed out rolled and point buy will dump it if given the chance.
I think Malk is right and the deva have said Int still influences how many skills you get. While skill ranks don't seem like a thing, you do regularly get skill increases.
Also, I think reactions and weaknesses on monsters are going to make knowledge checks hella powerful.
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Intelligence doesn't just influence a few skills, it influences HOW MANY you get. Now how good that is depends on how many skills you get anyway. If you get proficiency in (say) only 4 skills before Intelligence, then every + or - is a big deal. If you get 8 then it barely matters.The skill system has changed drastically in the new version, we don't get skill ranks anymore. I don't think int effects how many skills you get anymore.
No, it absolutely does. Mark Seifter specifically noted (well, implied really strongly) that a PF2 Alchemist he played got extra skills at 1st level due to having high Int.
It may not grant skills every level any more, but with each skill rank meaning more gaining extra ranks equal to your bonus at 1st level (the most likely scenario) is very nice. It also seems to add to more skills than any other Ability (though that's speculative, I'll grant).
Charisma, meanwhile, grants a single point of Resonance, and seems to add to more skills than anything but Int (I think the two together make up almost half the skill list). The choice between a single extra skill and a single point of Resonance per day seems about an even one to me.
Wisdom is still the standout of the mental stats with Will Saves, Perception, and a few skills to boot. Con has gone down a bit in value if only because HP have gone up but is still solid. Ditto Dex going down in value (due to Initiative leaving it), but remaining valuable. Str has generally maintained value (though Bulk may up it a little).
So I'd say the three save-affiliated stats (Dex, Con, Wis) remain more valuable than the other three (Str, Int, Cha) but that the balance has shifted somewhat in favor of the non-Save stats, and that while those three stats will still see more 'dumps' than the Save boosting ones, which one of them gets 'dumped' will equalize out a bit.
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I think Malk is right and the [/b]deva[b] have said Int still influences how many skills you get.
Deva? What god, divinity or evil spirit are YOU getting your info from? ;)
Dump stats don't exist in the new system unless you houserule it, and even then there's been statements from Devs that disallow any mechanical benefits for dumping stats, meaning any concerns regarding dump stats should likewise be nonexistent.
Even so, I believe that Paizo is working towards everyone having more skills than in PF1, meaning a character who suffers an Intelligence penalty from ancestry modifiers (which are non-existent in Core, I might add) won't be as big of a deal as it was in its predecessor.
I highly doubt they're suddenly going to change it so only Intelligence based classes get bonus skills from Intelligence. Why do so many people seem to think this is the case?Skills are an aspect of the system that we know the least about. I think it would be wise not to make any assumptions about it, but I'm asking because perhaps others know more about it than me.
Int gives extra skills at first level, confirmed in the Wizard blog. Presumably increasing Int gives you more retroactively, like it does in PF1. Because a first level investment scales as you level, this is similar to PF1, where a point of Int bonus eventually meant one more skill you were good at.
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Int gives extra skills at first level, confirmed in the Wizard blog. Presumably increasing Int gives you more retroactively, like it does in PF1. Because a first level investment scales as you level, this is similar to PF1, where a point of Int bonus eventually meant one more skill you were good at.I highly doubt they're suddenly going to change it so only Intelligence based classes get bonus skills from Intelligence. Why do so many people seem to think this is the case?Skills are an aspect of the system that we know the least about. I think it would be wise not to make any assumptions about it, but I'm asking because perhaps others know more about it than me.
I will point out that the blog said "skill choices at 1st level".
Though that may just mean extra skills and my brain is just running silly.
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I’m taking it in conjunction with what we know about Alchemist, and Occam’s razor. More skill choices = you choose more skills.
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we still have old skill point system and the new profession system makes sure you get interesting bonuses at specific thresholds so at lets say 5 perception we can get keen eyes skill feat which lessens range penalty to attack target out of reach.
Sort of. Rereading the post on proficiency, I think we'll get a certain amount of skill points every other level, but instead of working like they do now, they'll increase the skill's proficiency rank.
Proficiency Modifier
Your proficiency modifier is based partly on your rank and partly on your level—you add your level to the modifier from your rank to determine your proficiency modifier. For instance, a level 20 rogue who is legendary at Stealth might have a +23 proficiency modifier, while a level 1 paladin who is untrained at Stealth might have a –1 proficiency modifier. But does that mean that your level 20 untrained and magic-hating barbarian knows more about arcane magic than your friend's level 1 bibliophile wizard does? Not really. Your barbarian, with her extensive experience in battle, might be able to identify a dragon's weaknesses much better than the wizard with his ivory-tower book learning, but when it comes to magical theory, identifying the gestures that compose a spell, or other such topics, your barbarian simply doesn't know anything at all.Gaining Proficiency
For most of your statistics, your starting proficiencies are determined by your class, though for skills, you can assign your ranks as you choose among any of the skills in the game. When it comes to leveling up, all classes gain skill rank increases at every odd-numbered level (or more often for the rogue!). Your other proficiencies increase based on your class and feat choices.
Seems pretty clear to me, but I do wonder how many skills we can advance when we are able to advance them, and also how quickly we can advance a skill to legendary.
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that's still makes some skills to easy to boost as blogs say you become legendary at craft at 17 level this means you need 17 skill points become enough proficient in craft to craft legendary gear. While your math i can build legendary sword at 4th level greatly breaking game. which not the creators and my point.we still have old skill point system and the new profession system makes sure you get interesting bonuses at specific thresholds so at lets say 5 perception we can get keen eyes skill feat which lessens range penalty to attack target out of reach.Sort of. Rereading the post on proficiency, I think we'll get a certain amount of skill points every other level, but instead of working like they do now, they'll increase the skill's proficiency rank.
Trained and Expert are available from 1st.
Master is available from 7th.Legendary is available from 17th.
Int boosting your starting skills means you’ll have more skills sitting at Expert by level 7, “waiting” for promotion to Master. By the time you reach level 17, everybody can have enough skills sitting at Master to get as many Legendary skills as anyone else, except Rogue, who gets more.
Based on the numbers for Rogue (which gets an extra 50% more skill advances), I’m guessing that it’ll be promoting two skills every odd level. First level will start you with a good set trained from your class, plus a flavorful lore from your background. Int makes a big deal for starting flexibility, then.
Based on the numbers for Rogue (which gets an extra 50% skill advances), I’m guessing that it’ll be promoting two skills every odd level. First level will start you with a good set trained from your class, plus a flavorful lore from your background. Int makes a big deal for starting flexibility, then.
Quoting the Rogue blog for clarification on this point:
Not only does she gain training and proficiency increases in more skills than other classes, but she gains skill feats at an accelerated rate (one per level instead of one every other level).
Man, I really hope they don't lock basic maneuvers and functions like Feint or Tumble behind feats. Stuff like Power Attack (a simple wind up to a powerful swing) being a feat is bad enough.
I'm okay with feats /improving/ basic actions and making them awesome, but if it's something that literally anyone can do, or at least anyone with basic training in a skill, it shouldn't be a feat.
Based on the numbers for Rogue (which gets an extra 50% skill advances), I’m guessing that it’ll be promoting two skills every odd level. First level will start you with a good set trained from your class, plus a flavorful lore from your background. Int makes a big deal for starting flexibility, then.Quoting the Rogue blog for clarification on this point:
Not only does she gain training and proficiency increases in more skills than other classes, but she gains skill feats at an accelerated rate (one per level instead of one every other level).
Whoops, thanks! 50% was a the guess I reached looking at some dev posts, and not stated anywhere. My bad!
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I only hope Str and Int do not come to what they have in 5th Ed D&D.
"...it came to nothing, it delivered no power..."
Well, from what we've seen so far it's king of damage, especially at high levels, because damage die matters and the highest finesse weapon we've seen is 1d6.
6d6+6 for a high level Rapier user is only 27 average damage. 6d12+6 for a Greatsword user is 45 average damage. The latter is defnitionally a Str build.
That's something.
I also suspect Bulk will be more of an issue this time.
i'm fine with Dex adding to attack and damage rolls with finesse weapons which should mostly be resricted to daggers, batons, needles, and unarmed strikes (or similar objects of appropriate size and precision) unless you spend a feat to gain finesse with a better weapon. where the weapon groups would be in tiers.
I think it was already said (correct me if I'm wrong) that Rapiers got the finesse feat
And I certainly would not say that some light curved blades could be used as finesse weapons (some sabers and scimitar type weapons are rather agile)
As well as Katanas (or at least Wakizashis) but that is a matter of taste I would presume
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Man, I really hope they don't lock basic maneuvers and functions like Feint or Tumble behind feats.I don't have a problem with it. The way I see it, skill use should normally be an Exploration thing, not a Combat thing. Bluff is what you use to get a guard to let you in because honestly, you do work here and you just forgot your key. Applying that skill to combat in a way that drops the foes' defenses near-completely... I'm totally OK with that being a feat.
Same thing with Tumble. Acrobatics is about walking on tightropes and making precise leaps. Applying that skill to combat in a way that lets you slip by aware foes without giving them a chance to interfere... I'm totally OK with that being an advanced use of the skill that requires a skill feat.
I think that sort of division is likelier to be untrained vs. trained, the most basic investment you can make.
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I think that sort of division is likelier to be untrained vs. trained, the most basic investment you can make.Man, I really hope they don't lock basic maneuvers and functions like Feint or Tumble behind feats.I don't have a problem with it. The way I see it, skill use should normally be an Exploration thing, not a Combat thing. Bluff is what you use to get a guard to let you in because honestly, you do work here and you just forgot your key. Applying that skill to combat in a way that drops the foes' defenses near-completely... I'm totally OK with that being a feat.
Same thing with Tumble. Acrobatics is about walking on tightropes and making precise leaps. Applying that skill to combat in a way that lets you slip by aware foes without giving them a chance to interfere... I'm totally OK with that being an advanced use of the skill that requires a skill feat.
For what it is worth, I'm pretty sure the GCP playtest said you could Tumble if you were trained in acrobatics.