| NeonScorpion |
Hello! I need some help designing a puzzle that could be completed by my players. I already have a concept and an idea, but I need advice figuring out the logistics.
First off, I have a party of 4 players, two adults, and two children age 12 and 9. The kids are actually very bright and keep up just fine, but if it gets too complicated they can get boggled. I need help because I need a challenge for BOTH the adults and the kids that doesn't feel way to hard or too easy.
Setting: Its futuristic sci-fi (campaign was before star finder, I home-brew literally everything) they find themselves in a star-ship half submerged in the desert, hundreds of years old and crumbling. The star-ship is massive, and its our campaigns first real "Dungeon" so I want some staples. Currently they have to find away to give an onboard A.I they awoke more power to proceed further into the ship and discover why the star-ship is causing problems for the nearby town.
Players:
Gunslinger (kid), Fighter (kid), Alchemist (adult), and Skald (adult).
Concept: I was a puzzle that requires them to split up along two paths, two to each. Their goal is to get power cores from stations on symmetrical opposite sides of the ship level, then carry them along parallel but separated corridors to a main power room also separated where they can install them into slots, one on either side to give the A.I access. My idea was that there where only 4 usable Cores, 2 on each side, and only two cores are needed to charge the A.I. But the challenge came that removing too many cores at once turned the little power left in the area off, causing doors or obstacles to shut, and the A.I to turn off, meaning unable to get them to their destination. I like the idea that they must communicate to alternate and place power cores in certain stations along the path to open and shut doors on the opposite side, so they must work together to give power to the other side and vise versa until they reach the end and can install them. I was inspired by something like the "Cloister of Trials" type puzzles from Final Fantasy X. Where placement of certain orbs unlocked paths and you had to do it in a particular order. The problem is I have this concept, but I need practical advice on how each corridor should be different, ideas of power core slots along the way and what they open on either side, and how to make it so its actually playable so there is no chance of them getting stuck. It doesn't have to be a straight path, there can be more sections and rooms that are symmetrical on either side, but acting in one affects the other so they have to work together.
Any ideas on how to actually do this type of puzzle, the possible layout and triggers, and in what order cores should be placed to make the path clear would be amazing, because even though I love the concept, I just can't seem to make it reasonable and cool. any help would be wonderful.
BASIC PUZZLE LAYOUT TO BUILD OFF OF:
Green are the cores to pick up
Red doors shut when 2 cores have been removes on either side
Blue is where they should go
https://imgur.com/3QU8jZz
The thing is this same puzzle could be done in which there is a single main "pipeline" to channel the energy from cores down the corridor and into the right one, and players separated could flick switches and have to coordinate because these switches affect and open and close valves or gates blocking or letting the power through, they both have to work to find the right combination and order of switches on both sides to let it flow through completely without obstruction, Either or can work for me, so if you have an easy time with help on this idea I would take that too!
| Shiroi |
This is going to heavily depend on how your players like these kinds of things. CoT was a horrible thing in FFX, it was a neat idea that in practice was very slow and required a lot of running around with no purpose, did little to add to the game besides thematics, and ultimately could have been done without.
I'd Google 'angry gm puzzles' it should pull up a fun to read article on the difference between a puzzle and a challenge and how to implement them in your campaign.
If your players like this kind of thing as much as you do, thats great... But remember that this sort of thing isn't for everyone, and you're basing it on a really iffy example (from an otherwise PERFECT game).
| Mike J |
I would suggest approaching this the way everything else in the game is approached: the players don't have to actually perform/know what their characters perform/know. This is the basis of Knowledge skills and not having your players physically jump over a 40 foot wide pit that is 100 feet deep. It is a way to handle situations where the character knows more than the player. Also it handles the reverse, where the character knows less than the player.
So, the players shouldn't have to solve the puzzle, their characters should. I would have a collection of skill/ability checks to reveal clues and with enough of them, solve the entire puzzle. That way no matter how smart or dumb my players are, their characters can still solve the puzzle.
And whatever Angry says to do.
| Pizza Lord |
Typically it's easiest to start at the end and work your way to the beginning, so you can see what is needed at one room and make sure that it's available in the room before it.
There needs to be more information for me to get too in-depth. We don't know the PCs' levels or expected capabilities. I see the map. It looks like a bisected power core room, where 2 cores need to reach (1 on each side), with no access between them. I see symmetrical corridors consisting of 4 sections each (and a single corridor presumably allowing access elsewhere). I see two separate rooms holding 2 of 3 power cores each.
For ease, you should label the corridor sections. 1, 2, 3, 4. Maybe with an L or R for left and right, though I prefer P and S for Port and Starboard on a ship, whatever is easiest for you to visualize.
Then you need puzzles that are more involved than carry core to 1S, it opens 1P, carry core to 2P, it opens door between 1S and 2S. You need something interesting that causes thoughts, consideration, danger, and a sense of shared story between the two groups.
You need a way for the groups to communicate somehow. Obviously if the A.I. is on in a section, it could allow communication between the two groups (if it's off they can't speak). Otherwise yelling through sealed doors and sections probably isn't feasible.
You need to make sure they split up in groups of two, such as, the power core is heavy (and unwieldy), requiring two people to carry it stably (otherwise it may begin to spark, spill corrosive fluid, or whatever). This keeps one really strong guy from saying they can carry that weight, maybe, but it ultimately would fail horribly. You can have the A.I. warn about such things in the room. That will at least divide the party as desired for the task. (Sure, maybe there's some other way to do it, floating disk or something, if so, whatever.)
Then you need to stop and think not only how to solve the puzzle, but then you need to think about how they will probably go about trying to solve it... in what will likely be the wrong way entirely, but will seem clever or awesome to them, so you need to be ready with a logical excuse that doesn't make it sound like you're just shooting them down. Thankfully, you can reply or make comments as the A.I. when possible, to keep things in-character.
For instance, they might figure "If we only need two, and the doors don't seal until we take two cores from the storage room... What if we just carried one through it's whole section and then came back and got the other one and ...?"
or if they carried a core from one storage room and hooked into that obvious third space you have there, and then moved one of those three to the end, thus having two on the completed side... and then just working the one through its section while having two power cores to play with. Ultimately, depending on how you lay it out, that might amount to nothing, but you have to be ready for them to mess up a lot and still keep it fun and challenging.
You might only have placed that extra third pedestal for logical, believable reason that there were more power cores in the past or maybe those ones are burnt out, but a player seeing those spots may contribute some importance to them (and maybe you can actually implement something that takes advantage of that.)
I would recommend that you have the doors between the port and starboard sides seal as soon as 1 core is unhooked, preventing access to the central corridor (unless replaced) and cannot be opened until full power is restored. When 2 are unhooked from either side, you lock down the others as you plan, and the puzzle begins in earnest (unless they reattach them and reset everything.)
Setup: the A.I. explains the problem, maybe mentions that its power relays are all damaged and it's rerouting commands through a tangle of bypassed and piggybacked circuits throughout the vessel (explaining why the PCs have to do such arcane and elaborate electronic tinkering when it would be hugely frustrating if that were the standard procedure on moving about the ship.)
Room 1 Starboard (1S) and Room 1 Port (1P):
Both have access to the store room, both have a power substation. If a core is placed in either one, the A.I. has an intercom link to the two rooms, allowing PCs to more or less speak and overhear what happens in either (meaning, you don't need one core in each section, just one in either).
Placing a core in 1S substation opens the door between 1P and 2P or, more accurately, has the A.I. state that it can open that door or a button lights up on the door (you don't have to have it open itself, you can let them 'decide' to do so, but it has to be done or commanded from room 1S, not by anyone in 1P). They can also close the door, but removing the core closes the door automatically.
Placing a core in 1P substation does nothing apparently, but it actually causes something to occur in a later section, like 3S. Possibly you can have the A.I. mention something like, "Adjust focusing array for section [whatever designation the PCs don't know for area 3S]?" If 'yes' "Re-alignment by unqualified technicians can lead to critical system damage. Continue?" If 'yes', then assume the focusing array in 3S will be angled to destroy the generator there when that room is powered. If the core is removed before that occurs, have a stated "Power loss to focusing array detected. Resetting default targeting." This will mean they need to keep this subsystem powered to pass. How? By placing the spare core from the portside storage room here and leaving it.
2P: (opened with a core in 1S)
This section should have numerous pipes or conduits, There should be some slight dripping and an off scent. This can just be water reclamation or it can be waste reclamation, your call whether to let them know they've been steamed by filtered waste.
Placing a core in the 2P substation has the A.I. inform them that it can open the door between 1S and 2S. It can also close it. Removing the core closes the door automatically.
(This is nice and reliable and easy to understand so far for the PCS, so they get the gist.)
2S: (opened by core in 2P)
Placing a core in this substation transfers additional power to 2P and also activates the waste and water reclamation pumps there. Unfortunately, the pipes are damaged and the power conduits are overheating rapidly. This should translate to steam/heat damage every round.
The first round, the dripping should increase and mist should spray out as the pressure in the pipes builds up. No damage. Also, a small service bot/construct/whatever should emerge from a small service port and begin tinkering with the door between 2P and 3P. The A.I. should mention (in both sections, so both groups know what's happening) that there's a steam buildup in section 2P and that a service technician is currently overriding and rerouting electrical power to the door.
Each round, double the steam/heat damage taken by those in 2P. Damage breakdown is basically: 1st round: 0 (just sprayed with mist and maybe some warm liquid), 2nd: 1, 3rd: 2, 4th: 4, 5th: 8, 6th: 16, 7th: 32, 8th+: 64 (capped). If the power core is removed from the station at 2S, then the pressure and heat dissipates rapidly, dropping two damage steps each round, but this deactivates the repair droid and drops any progress on rerouting back to 0%.
Beginning on the 2nd round, the little droid makes its first 'repair check' on the door (assume it spends a round powering up if it's already there and somehow stopped, such as the core in 2S being removed). Assume it has a 50% chance to succeed, so a 10 or better on the d20. Each success indicates 10% progress (and the A.I. will state progress at the end of each round). Each failure gives no progress and a failure by 5 or more (1–5 on the d20) indicates a loss of 1d10% progress. A natural 20 gives 15% progress instead of 10. You can have a player in 2S roll if you want them to feel like they're helping (or to be blamed for bad rolls). If you want an intercom open between the two groups, that's cool too, so one group can be yelling, "Stop! Turn it off!" and plan a course of action.
The droid is immune to the steam, so it can keep working. If the PCs somehow damage or destroy it themselves, assume a new one comes from another hidden port one round later and keeps working. I don't know your PCs' fire resistance or capabilities, but that damage adds up. How would they survive that damage? Simple, they don't stay in that room. They go back to 1P and have the guys in the starboard section seal that door (either by removing the core there, if they cleverly placed on of the spares there) or commanding the A.I. to do so (and while it's active). Then, eventually, the little droid will finish its task (within a minute, maybe two with really bad luck). This causes the door between 2P and 3P to open (and remain so). The PCs in 2S then remove the core (to turn off the steam), and reopen the door between 1P and 2P to let the Portside group in there (or through to 3P).
Placing a power core in the substation here in 2P opens the door between 2S and 3S but also powers the security array in section 3S. You might have the A.I. mention something to that effect, like "Security array and repulsor defenses activated in section [whatever designation area 3S is called.] Threat to biological functions inevitable." or something similarly horrifying.
3S: (opened by powercore in 2P)
Assume this is a security checkpoint. There should be a focusing array or crystal matrix (nothing too fragile looking) or mirrored lenses projecting from the floor at about the corner. There's a laser (or whatever) projector in the ceiling aiming down countless rotating blasts and beams of light to the floor, hitting the array and scattering into a disco-like beam of slashing lights projecting through the door and into section 2S. There is also a repulsor generator creating a field over the doorway between 2S and 3S. The generator is around the corner, near the door to 4S and out of sight to PCs in 2S.
As long as a powercore is in the 2P substation, the projector fires its beam at the array, splitting its lasers projecting them through the doorway, hitting anyone in 2S for (some significant amount) of damage each round. Assume there's more energy and lasers than just the visible spectrum they can see, if they think they can dodge beams of light. Note that by the map, they can take shelter around the corner in room 2S and be safe.
The repulsor field pushes away anything trying to pass it other than pretty much light. Attempts to get through fail (and there's a faint forcefield-like shimmer, to alert the PCs). Also, projectiles and such are deflected, with similar force. This means a tossed object probably just bounces back a bit, but arrows and bullets may fly back at their shooters (assume cover if around the corner). This may be a shock to characters trying to target the focusing array in room.
Removing the powercore in 2P turns off the security system but also closes the door between 2S and 3S (the field is over the section 2S side and remains until fully closed).
If a powercore is placed in section 1P's substation, the chance to 'adjust focusing array' may become an option, in which case, the focusing array is angled in the other direction in room 3S and strikes the repulsor generator, turning off the field. Possibly with an alert of "Critical system damage detected, disabling system until thorough maintenance overhaul." and the laser projector and array slide into the ceiling and floor.
3P: (opened by being repaired by the repair bot in 2P)
Maybe a gravity field in here, or a security turret that pops out when the room is powered, but the other group can turn off the lights and it can't target them... or it sees with infrared light and the Starboard group goes back and turns on and powers the system in 2P to cause steam to generate so much heat the security turrets fire in that direction instead of the PCs.
That's about all I got for now.
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| SorrySleeping |
Don't do puzzles. Just don't. The only good way to do puzzles is if the characters do them without need of the actual players needing to solve it. It is just a simple skill challenge at that point.
| NeonScorpion |
Typically it's easiest to start at the end and work your way to the beginning, so you can see what is needed at one room and make sure that it's available in the room before it.....
Thanks for the help, I should have given more information about the scenario. Your actually the only helpful person trying to help me figure out what to do, seems people either think I don't know my group enough to know they enjoy puzzles, or that they are a waste of time and should never be done. In my opinion our Sessions are "Game Nights", not "Hack and Slash Murderfest" nights, my players commonly complain if everything is just kill this or attack that and if they feel they haven't role-played in awhile or done intellectual activities such as PUZZLES. I like to mix up what we do as an activity each session so they feel like each time they sit down its a new experience to try and solve. I literally hand crafted an entire system and rules and battle mat to make high speed mounted vehicular combat in which you could never stop going forward along a set path, but you had maneuverability each turn to do things. it took all session but the complete change up in tactics and thinking made it the most fun we have had the entire campaign. I know the risks of making it a slog, I'm actively trying to avoid that. I just don't want another combat, or a stupid riddle puzzle or something. I want a puzzle that requires thinking, interaction with the environment, and cooperation to complete a goal, in fact if anything I want it to be more like a set of obstacles of varying skill checks and ability that equal one grand "puzzle".
More recently I have considered it being a sort of escort mission (I know those are often bad too) but on each side one player hauls, while the other defends and tries to solve problems all before the leftover power in the system runs out and the door leading to the power room shuts and they have to go back or something. (with "checkpoints" where they can set the core down to recharge the clock) I just need something short, sweet, unique, and entertaining. it can have a bit of everything in it, combat, little bit of logic, puzzle solving, skill checks, all of it.More Information: Its a group of 4 level 3's. So we cant go crazy on damage or anything but thematically it shouldn't limit anything. They have a way to communicate, they have earpieces that let them speak to each other. The A.I. is smart, but also like a themepark guide, shes there to open doors and help them with various tasks that her power can reach, answer questions and exposition. The ship itself is very very old, most has been eaten buy rust monsters and heavily damaged in many places. Robots and repair droids and turrets aren't online yet just a few camera the A.I can see through and the earpieces she hacked into to communicate. that happens after they install the cores and an evil A.I awakes and regains control of a lot of the ship and begins utilizing its defense systems to stop them. and until the good A.I and lights turned on there was no power, so its a desperate attempt to give her power so they can progress further into the "Dungeon". to brake it down, the puzzle is a "Get 2 objects to point A and Point B" but whats stopping them is the problem "what makes that difficult?"
maybe it doesn't have to be a puzzle? but I think it would be cool to play on the fact they are carrying power around and can use it to navigate in new ways and do things they couldn't before in a rush to get them to their goal. maybe there is only a few doors in which one has to open the other sides door. but the majority is the two teams dealing with the unique situations in their hallways (or path it doesnt have to be a straight shot) to get to the open door before the power cuts. So maybe a few basic turrets or droids do come online, they think its their friendly A.I and she explains it not. building suspense and confusion as to whats happening. Maybe the main path has to detour, or the detour is there as a last resort if they are running out of time, far more dangerous but can shave off precious rounds if they get hung up on a previous challenge. I just need to be careful not to have it so difficult that they reset more than once or it instantly becomes a chore.
Any new suggestions now? Thank you so much for the help! I have no one to talk DM to DM with because everyone I bounce ideas off of is in my group! Thanks for the actual thought and advice you put into it! I can definitely use it! :)