With Racial templates being limited to two static attribute bonuses, one floating and one penalty (or otherwise likely just two floating), a speed, and a vision type, would it make sense for all half-x races to just pick one dominant racial template and just have heritage feats that would allow for the things that make that specific ancestry unique?
It seems like having half-elves and half-orcs be their own unique ancestry type is not especially necessary if they are going to get human stat numbers, movement. Yes the vision type could shift, but this has the mechanical problem of essentially making half-orcs and half-elves just universally better than humans, because they are humans + a vision type. Perhaps heritage feats for specific half-x race could allow for those vision types and then a lot of space could be saved in the book by not having to dedicate entire pages to basically create space for 3 different races that are otherwise mechanically the same.
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No, it wouldn't make sense. Half-Orc and Half-Elves are popular races, and making a "Hybrid character ancestry" hides those two races behind a gate and introduces half races behind the gate that, in most all fantasy games, and especially in golarion, DO NOT EXIST.
Humans, Half-orcs and Half-elves beyond that are still 3 distinct races, that DO have their own unique attributes and can all have drastically different normal living circumstances growing up, that their physical and mental differences brought upon them through their childhood are DRASTICALLY different that since both half races are a core part of most fantasy worlds that they would STILL need their own write ups just to explain what their typical life experience is.
Ideally, beyond this point, we'll see the traditionally supernatural "half" races such as Aasimar or Tiefling(Because these supernatural races wouldn't have a "Half" to begin with) become a "Ancestral template" or otherwise be able to pick an original ancestry and take an ancestral feat or two from their original race.
What musicaddict said. Also, there is already precedent with some ancestries clearly being better than others.
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As long as half-evles, half-orcs, aasimar, tieflings, and other half-human types have adequate support with heritage and ancestry feats, why would it make more sense to have to have a separate ancestry block than for these ancestries to fit and be well supported under one racial template?
To me, this would easily open up all mixed-racial ancestry, as you could just pick the dominant parental base template and have access to ancestry feats subject to DM/GM approval based upon your concept. If the developers are even considering this as a possibility, it is probably best that they do so up front and balance all ancestry feats on the possibility that any two of them might be put together in one character, otherwise things will get pretty sloppy if some ancestry feats are clearly better than others with the intention that they would be trying to balance other ancestry issues.
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I feel like "can breed true with all manner of things" should be what makes humans special. I was never really a fan of non-human changelings, aasimar, and tieflings for that reason.
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The more I think about it, with the base chassis of the races looking so similar, it is probably going to be pretty important to limit ancestry feats from crossing over too many lines or you end up with certain choices becoming "obvious" base choices for things like vision and speed, because the desired ancestry feats would become to easily accessible to everyone. This doesn't challenge the idea that it is probably better for more ancestries to be more similar in terms of their racial templates not deviating wildly, but that choosing a certain ancestry path should mean not having access to other ancestry feats. Or else ancestry will just be a function of combining the options that result in the best mechanical advantages. (Why is every illusionist suddenly being raised by gnomes? for example.)
The more I think about it, with the base chassis of the races looking so similar, it is probably going to be pretty important to limit ancestry feats from crossing over too many lines or you end up with certain choices becoming "obvious" base choices for things like vision and speed, because the desired ancestry feats would become to easily accessible to everyone. This doesn't challenge the idea that it is probably better for more ancestries to be more similar in terms of their racial templates not deviating wildly, but that choosing a certain ancestry path should mean not having access to other ancestry feats. Or else ancestry will just be a function of combining the options that result in the best mechanical advantages. (Why is every illusionist suddenly being raised by gnomes? for example.)
As I've said before, you are correct. Ancestry Feats need to be locked tight to their corresponding Ancestry. If you allow cross-Ancestry choices it will become a balance nightmare before you can say "Racial Heritage" (we all remember how that worked out right?)
The more I think about it, with the base chassis of the races looking so similar, it is probably going to be pretty important to limit ancestry feats from crossing over too many lines or you end up with certain choices becoming "obvious" base choices for things like vision and speed, because the desired ancestry feats would become to easily accessible to everyone. This doesn't challenge the idea that it is probably better for more ancestries to be more similar in terms of their racial templates not deviating wildly, but that choosing a certain ancestry path should mean not having access to other ancestry feats. Or else ancestry will just be a function of combining the options that result in the best mechanical advantages. (Why is every illusionist suddenly being raised by gnomes? for example.)As I've said before, you are correct. Ancestry Feats need to be locked tight to their corresponding Ancestry. If you allow cross-Ancestry choices it will become a balance nightmare before you can say "Racial Heritage" (we all remember how that worked out right?)
Obviously, a feat like PF1's Racial Heritage would have to have a different name (as "racial" would no longer be used and "heritage" would have a new and different meaning). But the whole category of Heritage feats makes it possible to provide a feat that unlocks non-physical Ancestry feats (by allowing access to Ancestry feats but excluding Heritage feats).
Balance nightmares occur when different designers make different assumptions about how various game elements interact. There is a chance (but not a certainty) that such problems can be avoided with sufficient forethought.
My prediction is that PF2 will resolve most of the balance problems of PF1 (as they have had years to identify and solve those problems), but that some new problems will eventually slip through into the new edition (as they will be back to a faster schedule by next year).
I think if it requires a heritage feat up front, that would be a fair cost for what currently exists as the "racial Heritage" feat, because it essentially means being a feat behind in trade for the flexibility. My concern would be if there is just a default way to decide that your character can have free access to multiple ancestry tree feats.
I feel like "can breed true with all manner of things" should be what makes humans special. I was never really a fan of non-human changelings, aasimar, and tieflings for that reason.
I feel like other mortal races should be planetouched, because the half-flumph templates exist-- the ability to produce offspring with other types of beings is unique to the most powerful magical beings in existence...
... and humanity.
Isn't just other humanoids, either. I feel like the Bestiary should include a Half-Human template that can only be applied to living non-humanoids.
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I firmly agree with making the mixed ancestry accessed via the Heritage feat at 1st level. This heritage feat would usually be very specific to your base ancestry, so giving it up is a significant offset for the ability to select follow-on ancestry feats from either list.
"Dwarf-blooded" should be a Heritage feat available in, say, the Human, Gnome, and Orc ancestries (just throwing out examples of the mechanics, not specific options). If maybe grants a +2 to Ancestry HP, and some other dwarfy trait, and allows the character to count as a dwarf for feat prerequisites (allowing the selection of dwarf ancestry feats). This mechanic would be in the core, and allow the Half-elf and half-orc characters people like, while also opening up a bunch of new combinations for others.
Using this mechanic, they can later release a Manual of the Planes style hardcover, that includes a "Planetouched" Heritage feat that essentially any ancestry can select, which opens up specific ancestry feats for those characters. This would represent the current aasimar, tiefling, etc. 'races' (though I would tie it to specific planes, so Planetouched (heaven) would be different than Planetouched (nirvana). This would also represent the current Sylph, Oread, Undine, Ifrit with ties to the elemental planes.
By removing the Half-races as specific entries in the core rulebook, it allows inclusion of Orc and Kobold to balance out the goblin inclusion, and completely flesh out the most common races in the world.
gross.
The more I think about it, with the base chassis of the races looking so similar, it is probably going to be pretty important to limit ancestry feats from crossing over too many lines or you end up with certain choices becoming "obvious" base choices for things like vision and speed, because the desired ancestry feats would become to easily accessible to everyone. This doesn't challenge the idea that it is probably better for more ancestries to be more similar in terms of their racial templates not deviating wildly, but that choosing a certain ancestry path should mean not having access to other ancestry feats. Or else ancestry will just be a function of combining the options that result in the best mechanical advantages. (Why is every illusionist suddenly being raised by gnomes? for example.)
(Emphasis mine)
Yeah, this. Anything allowed would need a cost-benefit balance, and I am not even sure we want to open that door. Maybe at best:
* You may use this feat to qualify for Ancestry Feats of <named race> with pre-requesites of 5th level or lower.
Or:
* You may use this feat to qualify for 2 Ancestry Feats of <named race>, so long as those feats have no pre-requisite other than that Ancestry.
Or:
* Select a second Ancestry. At any level you select an Ancestry Feat, you may select one from this Ancestry, instead. However, you take a -2 penalty to all pre-requisites, such as level, skill ranks, ability scores, and so on.
Pretty much: don't allow the most powerful feats to be selected--but still allow some advantageous ones.
Or, make it a template, and keep folks to one set of Ancestry feats--they just gain some abilities that are similar to the other race.
In a world with horny humans and dragons (there are half-human and dragon EVERYTHING, zomg guys, these two races produce 70 pct of the world's steamiest romance novels!*) plus magic, half-ancestries/mixes/etc. are just a thing.
I swear. Those two races! There would be half-human owlbears out there if...no, wait. There probably are. Nope, those exist. Someone's writing a 3pp for them, now. I'm sorry, guys. Trees with breasts are already a thing. Someone's making bugbears.
* The other 30% are produced by goblins, and no one wants to think about that, but I hear some of the plots are explosive and the storytelling's on fire.