Initial stat buy

[Nekome]

It just occurred to me... is the method of setting up initial stats with a point buy going to change? Is the number of points going to change? I'm fine with the current method, but since everything else is undergoing big changes, have we heard anything about this?

[Joe Jungers]

I wouldn't be surprised to see something akin to what StarFinder is using - base of 10 in each stat; 2 bonus stats (+2 each), 1 flaw stat (-2) based on your choice of Ancestry; then 10 points to spend on a 1-for-1 basis with a maximum of 18 in a stat.

[crashcanuck]

I don't mind the 1/1 stat buy of Starfinder but the Ancestry stat modifiers will likely look different if the Goblin Playtest Blog is any indication.

[TwilightKnight]

I agree that it will likely look something like Starfinder. They seem to be using some of the same basic concepts for hit points, and ancestry bonuses. The "feel" I get is making the system such that the player has more options for choosing which stats are bumped to avoid "cookie cutter" stereotypes while also keeping the preponderance of extremely high (17+) scores to a minimum.

[Scott Mcgroarty]

All I want for the buy system is to maintain the ability to dump stats. Everything else about how it works is more or less irrelevant to me.

[eddv]

I agree with Scott....I really am not a fan of how homogenized stats are in Starfinder myself and the ability to dump stats is Important to me.

I just didn't realize it until Starfinder took it away (yes I know you can dump a stat for no benefit but its just not quite the same)

[TwilightKnight]

I agree. I like how Starfinder limits the initial power levels by keeping most score a bit lower than PF, but I also miss having a stat lower than 10. Low ability scores are a source of character flaws and those flaws go to provide dynamic character narratives.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

So is the concern that there is no 'give-back' for taking a stat lower, or that 10 is the 'new' lower?

[Joe Jungers]

Maybe its just me, but I don't miss the 'dump stat' paradigm.

I suppose though that if I have a concept that might require a reduced attribute, then I could voluntarily reduce that attribute knowing that there isn't a mechanical benefit to doing so.

[Tallow]

I think this is an interesting part of the debate actually. Its a difference in two differing play styles. One style likes the dump stat for the roleplay opportunities it presents while another likes the dump stat for the power in facilitates. Neither is necessarily wrong.

But one thing to consider, is that those who prefer storytelling can still tell a creative and interesting story without necessarily being below average in a stat. Not everyone needs to be some version of Raistlin, as interesting and fun as that character was.

And removing the benefit of dumping a stat removes opportunities for those who play the game to create powerful characters, to gain excess benefit for giving up very little realistically.

[pauljathome]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

I agree that it will likely look something like Starfinder. They seem to be using some of the same basic concepts for hit points, and ancestry bonuses. The "feel" I get is making the system such that the player has more options for choosing which stats are bumped to avoid "cookie cutter" stereotypes while also keeping the preponderance of extremely high (17+) scores to a minimum.

Uh, our opinions of Starfinder differ. I find Starfinder characters INCREDIBLY cookie cutter especially in stats. You put a 16 or 18 into your primary stat, you make sure that your race gives you an 8 in a stat you don't care about. The only options revolve around the few remaining points.

While Starfinder has definitely all but eliminated stats of exactly 17 it is almost mandatory for a character to have a 16 or 18 in their primary stat.

[Redelia]

My biggest problem with Starfinder stat generation, and one that I hope does not find its way into PF2, is that the max of 18 is after, not before, racial adjustments. For some character concepts, starting with a 20 in a stat can be very helpful, and I see nothing wrong with it.

[eddv]

Tallow wrote:

I think this is an interesting part of the debate actually. Its a difference in two differing play styles. One style likes the dump stat for the roleplay opportunities it presents while another likes the dump stat for the power in facilitates. Neither is necessarily wrong.

But one thing to consider, is that those who prefer storytelling can still tell a creative and interesting story without necessarily being below average in a stat. Not everyone needs to be some version of Raistlin, as interesting and fun as that character was.

And removing the benefit of dumping a stat removes opportunities for those who play the game to create powerful characters, to gain excess benefit for giving up very little realistically.

My issue is that I feel like I cannot dump just because I feel like it without making myself more of a liability to the party, which in an organized play setting is not something I am willing to do.

[Arutema]

Paul Jackson wrote:

While Starfinder has definitely all but eliminated stats of exactly 17 it is almost mandatory for a character to have a 16 or 18 in their primary stat.

I blame the resolve system for being tied to both "key ability score" and "staying alive at 0 HP."

You are forced to have a certain ability score at 16 or better by your class at 1st level, simply because if you don't you will be dead before 2nd level. This is especially bad for solarions who do not otherwise get much benefit from Cha at 1st level.

For better or worse, PF2 isn't repeating that particular design flaw based on the various playtest streams.

[Cyrad]

I liked how Starfinder's racial penalties were meaningful without being crippling. If you had a race with a penalty in a score you needed,you didn't need to waste almost your entire point-buy just to have a 16.

This was particular annoying to me as kitsunes are among my favorite races in Pathfinder, but it's unacceptably difficult to build a melee kitsune without taking levels in rogue or swashbuckler due to the Strength penalty.

[Z...D...]

I actually like that you can not dump a stat to get higher points in Starfinder. It balances it out and make it so we do not have super high stats at level 1. I like how how these characters are just that, everyday persons, bug, human or reptile. Some have weaknesses and are not the best at everything.

I like the point cap as well. Do we need people with 20+ strength at level 1 anyway?

mini rant:

If that is the case, you better play you dump stat to the T.....for instance you have a 7 intelligence, no thinking about strategy in combat, just go and hit things.

But that is my opinion and apparently not the popular one.

[TwilightKnight]

I like that Starfinder somewhat limited the high end stats. I just wish there was a way to get a lower one. It’s hard to play a character that is exceptionally bad at [whatever] when they have an average ability stat.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Paradoxically in Starfinder, as often as not I've found my 'mediocre' skills to shine better than the skills *trained in*...

[nosig]

I'll wait and see what develops...

I do remember making the shift from LG to PFS, and going from a Minimum Stat of 8 to an actual Minimum of 7.

In LG the point buy was 28 pts... but an 8 was the number Stats started at and you then paid 2 points each to make them a 10.

LG character stats 14,14,14,14,12,8 was 28 points.
PFs character stats 14,14,14,14,12,8 was/is 20 points.

the fact that a PC could have a 7 was "really Kewl"- or at least felt that way to me. And I've played PCs with 7s in every Stat except CON... and each of them are fun to play! But then I'm weird that way sometimes.