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I think the problem with "bonus to 2 physical stats, penalty to one mental stat" and vice versa is that some classes only care about one side or the other of the mental/physical divide.
I think you're missing a couple of things though:
- We don't know if it's a +2 bonus, it could be something like stat ups in Starfinder where it's a +2 if the number you add it to is a 16 or less, and a +1 otherwise.
- It seems likely everybody also gets a floating stat bonus, which can be used to counteract the penalty if you want (Dwarf Bards rejoice!)
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- We don't know if it's a +2 bonus, it could be something like stat ups in Starfinder where it's a +2 if the number you add it to is a 16 or less, and a +1 otherwise.
- It seems likely everybody also gets a floating stat bonus, which can be used to counteract the penalty if you want (Dwarf Bards rejoice!)
Yes to both of these.
You'll also amp up several of your ability scores every 5 levels. The process might be familiar to those of you who've been playing Starfinder for the last several months! There are, of course, a few tweaks, and we made all ability boosts work the same way instead of being different at 1st level. Learn it once, use it in perpetuity.
Really digging the flexible ability boost!It's one of ways you get to really customize your ancestry to fit your character concept, melding the story and life of your character to the mechanics. Plus you can play the class you want without worrying about as much of an uphill battle with ability scores if you don't match the bonuses from the race with the class you had it mind. Incidentally, it provides a really nice design space to much more easily create and handle subraces that have different ability modifiers... ;)
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I'm on board with most races (and all core races) following the pattern.
Though, with that floating bonus, it's less essential since anyone can have bonuses to two physical or mental stats if they want, and few need super high ratings in more than two of them.
Especially since they seem to be going with something other than rapidly escalating point-buy costs like PF1 had.
I do dislike how the mental stat bonuses and penalties typecast many races. Elves never truly excel as Clerics, while Dwarves never truly excel as Wizards. You certainly can play with those race/class combos, but it inherently put you at a disadvantage because your racial bonuses don't align with the needs of your class. Tieflings and Aasimar had some cool variants that let you work around this and that would potentially be a model for PF2 to allow more diversity from each ancestry. I'm not for or against the +2/+2/-2 standard, and I don't think I'd be upset if it stayed or disappeared. I just hope races aren't quite as strongly typecast this time around.
I do dislike how the mental stat bonuses and penalties typecast many races. Elves never truly excel as Clerics, while Dwarves never truly excel as Wizards. You certainly can play with those race/class combos, but it inherently put you at a disadvantage because your racial bonuses don't align with the needs of your class. Tieflings and Aasimar had some cool variants that let you work around this and that would potentially be a model for PF2 to allow more diversity from each ancestry. I'm not for or against the +2/+2/-2 standard, and I don't think I'd be upset if it stayed or disappeared. I just hope races aren't quite as strongly typecast this time around.
They aren’t. It’s a fixed +2/+2/-2, plus a flexible +2 (doesn’t stack with the other +2s). So the only thing you can’t excel at is whatever that penalty is. Unlike before, though, you’re able to cancel out the penalty, so dwarves can still be functional bards. (I say “+2”, but it’s likely to work a little differently than just a flat bonus).
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I do dislike how the mental stat bonuses and penalties typecast many races. Elves never truly excel as Clerics, while Dwarves never truly excel as Wizards. You certainly can play with those race/class combos, but it inherently put you at a disadvantage because your racial bonuses don't align with the needs of your class. Tieflings and Aasimar had some cool variants that let you work around this and that would potentially be a model for PF2 to allow more diversity from each ancestry. I'm not for or against the +2/+2/-2 standard, and I don't think I'd be upset if it stayed or disappeared. I just hope races aren't quite as strongly typecast this time around.They aren’t. It’s a fixed +2/+2/-2, plus a flexible +2 (doesn’t stack with the other +2s). So the only thing you can’t excel at is whatever that penalty is. Unlike before, though, you’re able to cancel out the penalty, so dwarves can still be functional bards. (I say “+2”, but it’s likely to work a little differently than just a flat bonus).
Indeed. In fact, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the way you get to customize your ancestry ability score based on your specific ancestry is sort of an evolution from those variants that Dasrak mentions, and can easily allow you to mimic those. I mean we don't have aasimar yet, but imagine if they had two flexible +2s. Want to be musetouched? Dex and Cha. Angel? Str and Cha. Archon? Wis and Con. And so on!
Indeed. In fact, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the way you get to customize your ancestry ability score based on your specific ancestry is sort of an evolution from those variants that Dasrak mentions, and can easily allow you to mimic those. I mean we don't have aasimar yet, but imagine if they had two flexible +2s. Want to be musetouched? Dex and Cha. Angel? Str and Cha. Archon? Wis and Con. And so on!I do dislike how the mental stat bonuses and penalties typecast many races. Elves never truly excel as Clerics, while Dwarves never truly excel as Wizards. You certainly can play with those race/class combos, but it inherently put you at a disadvantage because your racial bonuses don't align with the needs of your class. Tieflings and Aasimar had some cool variants that let you work around this and that would potentially be a model for PF2 to allow more diversity from each ancestry. I'm not for or against the +2/+2/-2 standard, and I don't think I'd be upset if it stayed or disappeared. I just hope races aren't quite as strongly typecast this time around.They aren’t. It’s a fixed +2/+2/-2, plus a flexible +2 (doesn’t stack with the other +2s). So the only thing you can’t excel at is whatever that penalty is. Unlike before, though, you’re able to cancel out the penalty, so dwarves can still be functional bards. (I say “+2”, but it’s likely to work a little differently than just a flat bonus).
Will this flavour element of the flexible ability score bonuses make it into the game? i.e. in the hypothetical example of the Aasimar, would the option to boost Str and Cha be explicitly tied to having an Angelic ancestry (perhaps outlined in a sidebar)?
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Will this flavour element of the flexible ability score bonuses make it into the game? i.e. in the hypothetical example of the Aasimar, would the option to boost Str and Cha be explicitly tied to having an Angelic ancestry (perhaps outlined in a sidebar)?Indeed. In fact, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the way you get to customize your ancestry ability score based on your specific ancestry is sort of an evolution from those variants that Dasrak mentions, and can easily allow you to mimic those. I mean we don't have aasimar yet, but imagine if they had two flexible +2s. Want to be musetouched? Dex and Cha. Angel? Str and Cha. Archon? Wis and Con. And so on!I do dislike how the mental stat bonuses and penalties typecast many races. Elves never truly excel as Clerics, while Dwarves never truly excel as Wizards. You certainly can play with those race/class combos, but it inherently put you at a disadvantage because your racial bonuses don't align with the needs of your class. Tieflings and Aasimar had some cool variants that let you work around this and that would potentially be a model for PF2 to allow more diversity from each ancestry. I'm not for or against the +2/+2/-2 standard, and I don't think I'd be upset if it stayed or disappeared. I just hope races aren't quite as strongly typecast this time around.They aren’t. It’s a fixed +2/+2/-2, plus a flexible +2 (doesn’t stack with the other +2s). So the only thing you can’t excel at is whatever that penalty is. Unlike before, though, you’re able to cancel out the penalty, so dwarves can still be functional bards. (I say “+2”, but it’s likely to work a little differently than just a flat bonus).
At the moment (by which I mean you guys could give feedback to convince us otherwise I guess) we're unlikely to force your hand in a sidebar that says "Hey, if you picked Str and Cha, you have to be angelic" but more likely to say in a sidebar "Angel-blooded aasimars tend to pick Str and Cha." Of course, at this point we're deep into the land of hypotheticals.
At the moment (by which I mean you guys could give feedback to convince us otherwise I guess) we're unlikely to force your hand in a sidebar that says "Hey, if you picked Str and Cha, you have to be angelic" but more likely to say in a sidebar...
I definitely would prefer the "tend to prefer" flavor text.
At the moment (by which I mean you guys could give feedback to convince us otherwise I guess) we're unlikely to force your hand in a sidebar that says "Hey, if you picked Str and Cha, you have to be angelic" but more likely to say in a sidebar...
Awesome! Thanks Mark!
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I do dislike how the mental stat bonuses and penalties typecast many races. Elves never truly excel as Clerics, while Dwarves never truly excel as Wizards. You certainly can play with those race/class combos, but it inherently put you at a disadvantage because your racial bonuses don't align with the needs of your class. Tieflings and Aasimar had some cool variants that let you work around this and that would potentially be a model for PF2 to allow more diversity from each ancestry. I'm not for or against the +2/+2/-2 standard, and I don't think I'd be upset if it stayed or disappeared. I just hope races aren't quite as strongly typecast this time around.
You could say the same with physical stat bonuses/penalties. Elves will never excel as Barbarians, halflings never excel at melee Fighters.
At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself how different do you want your races to be from one another. Are they a truly different, alien species to baseline humans? "In this world, elves are just frailer than other races, but they're very smart. That's something they have to deal with and that's how they evolved to compensate."
You could do away with all racial ability score modifiers, or allow every race to pick and choose their bonus/penalty; there would still be other racial abilities to differentiate them, but you could also argue that this is another form of typecasting, and you would edge closer and closer to the concept that "all races are just human with different looks".
It all really depends on how you view different races/ancestries in your campaign.
In the first edition of Pathfinder, Paizo did do away with specific favored classes for each race, so doing something like that with racial ability score modifiers would really just be another step in that direction. I don't think I would be too disturbed if they eliminated mental ability score modifiers and left each race with a fixed physical ability score bonus.