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After reading a large portion of the Dex to Damage thread, I started thinking about how I would address the issue. Many posters approached the problem by attempted to carve out a unique combat experience when using finesse weapons. I prefer systems to be consistent; and thus would rather have Dexterity directly impact damage as Strength does today. Instead, I set out with the following goals.
1. Make Strength more valuable to Dexterity based characters.
2. Close the Strength versus Dexterity divide.
3. Simplify.
The result ends up changing how armor works, by replacing the Armor Check penalty with a new attribute of armor (and shields) called Burden. Here are the "bullet-point" changes:
• Armor Check penalties of armor and shield are replaced by a new "property" called Burden.
• Burden reduces your Reflex Saves and Dexterity and Strength based Ability Checks (including Skill Checks).
• Movement is reduced by 5 ft per point of Armor Burden (note this excludes Burden from Shields).
• Arcane Spell Failure is 5% + (Burden x 5%)
• Burden of each item worn is reduced by your Strength Modifier, when Armor Burden is reduced in this way, the Armor provided is increased an equal amount
(Note: Burden is not increased by a negative Strength Modifier)
• Armor Burden and Max Dexterity Modifier is adjusted by the Wearer's Size. (Example: Small is -1 Burden and +1 Max Dex, Large is +1 Burden and -1 Max Dex), this offsets the movement penalty for smaller creatures.
• If you are not proficient in the armor or shield you are wearing increase the item’s Burden by 1. Burden from items worn with which you are not proficient apply their Burden as a penalty to attack rolls.
Example Items:
Leather [Armor: +2, Max Dexterity Modifier: +8, Burden: 0]
Studded Leather [Armor: +2, Max Dexterity Modifier: +5, Burden: 1]
Chain Shirt [Armor: +2, Max Dexterity Modifier: +4, Burden: 2]
Scale Mail [Armor: +2, Max Dexterity Modifier: +3, Burden: 3]
Chain Mail [Armor: +3, Max Dexterity Modifier: +2, Burden: 3]
Splint Mail [Armor: +4, Max Dexterity Modifier: +0, Burden: 3]
Full Plate [Armor: +6, Max Dexterity Modifier: +1, Burden: 3]
Using these modifications you need a higher Strength to get the most of your armor. May your burdens be lifted!
So, a 16 Str / 10 Dex fighter in full plate will be +9 AC, while a 10 Str / 16 Dex Rogue in Leather will only be +5 AC while having the same speed and Penalties? Seems fairly harsh...
I had a similar but simpler idea - Strength adds to your AC in heavy armour (Medium armour would give use Strength or Dex, whichever was higher).
_
glass.
I have a similar, but simpler system in the TTRPG I am working on.
1) All equipment has a STR requirement.
2) For each point you fall short, you receive a -1 penalty to STR and DEX based skills (for armor) and attack and damage rolls (for weapons).
Having excess STR doesn't give you any extra benefits.
Characters that aren't trained in armor/weapons get a flat penalty to relevant checks.
In my system, however, you add always add DEX to attack rolls and STR to damage. Good fighters want both STR and DEX, because high STR gives them more damage, let's them use bigger weapons, and let's them wear better armor, while high DEX makes them more evasive and let's them hit more easily.
18 Str wizard in full plate, with full BAB and only a 5% spell failure chance? Sounds pretty sweet!
Starfinder Charter Superscriber
I'd wait to see how proficiency works with armor before trying to hack the armor system...
Thumbs up for the effort and the meaning behind. It would sad me greatly if I see again the dominance of the Optimal Sisters: Chain Shirt, Breastplate, and Full Plate.
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Taja the Barbarian wrote: So, a 16 Str / 10 Dex fighter in full plate will be +9 AC, while a 10 Str / 16 Dex Rogue in Leather will only be +5 AC while having the same speed and Penalties? Seems fairly harsh...
AKA "I don't like your play style, so lets crush it into oblivion."
Volkard Abendroth wrote: Taja the Barbarian wrote: So, a 16 Str / 10 Dex fighter in full plate will be +9 AC, while a 10 Str / 16 Dex Rogue in Leather will only be +5 AC while having the same speed and Penalties? Seems fairly harsh...
AKA "I don't like your play style, so lets crush it into oblivion." It has a realism advantage. In the real world, someone wearing leather armor is at a huge disadvantage (in a straight up fight, obviously) to someone wearing full plate; that's why people came up with full plate...
In this new system, why would anyone buy chain shirt?
Note:
Studded Leather [Armor: +2, Max Dexterity Modifier: +5, Burden: 1]
Chain Shirt [Armor: +2, Max Dexterity Modifier: +4, Burden: 2]
So Studded leather has higher Dex max, same Armor, but less burden.
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Starbuck_II wrote: In this new system, why would anyone buy chain shirt?
Note:
Studded Leather [Armor: +2, Max Dexterity Modifier: +5, Burden: 1]
Chain Shirt [Armor: +2, Max Dexterity Modifier: +4, Burden: 2]
So Studded leather has higher Dex max, same Armor, but less burden.
In this system, high Burden is actually good, since it converts Str bonus directly to AC. So, anyone with Str 14+ and Dex less than 20 gets better AC from the Chain Shirt.
Personally, I really dislike this system. It's fiddly and complex without providing much in the way of real benefits. It's super punitive in an un-fun way on Dex characters, and provides no actual bonus to Str characters, they just get to ignore the exciting new penalty you apply to non-Str characters.
Generally speaking, any House Rule that powers down people is less fun than those that power people up. This is especially true in the case of something like this that effects martials more than casters in a system that already favors casters.
Making Str more powerful should be done by, y'know, making Str more powerful, not powering down Dex.
pad300 wrote: Volkard Abendroth wrote: Taja the Barbarian wrote: So, a 16 Str / 10 Dex fighter in full plate will be +9 AC, while a 10 Str / 16 Dex Rogue in Leather will only be +5 AC while having the same speed and Penalties? Seems fairly harsh...
AKA "I don't like your play style, so lets crush it into oblivion." It has a realism advantage. In the real world, someone wearing leather armor is at a huge disadvantage (in a straight up fight, obviously) to someone wearing full plate; that's why people came up with full plate... I don't want to play in the real world. I want to be Errol Flynn running around as Robin Hood, or Captain Blood, or Zorro.
Alternatively, if realism is desired, take a look at Rolemaster.
Every weapon in the game has its own to-hit chart showing hit chances, damage dealt, and critical chances vs every type of armor.
Something like the rapier would be very accurate, but unlikely to do much to a character in full plate. A greatsword might have difficulty hitting an unarmed opponent, but be particularly effective against a heavily armored opponent.
Volkard Abendroth wrote: pad300 wrote: Volkard Abendroth wrote: Taja the Barbarian wrote: So, a 16 Str / 10 Dex fighter in full plate will be +9 AC, while a 10 Str / 16 Dex Rogue in Leather will only be +5 AC while having the same speed and Penalties? Seems fairly harsh...
AKA "I don't like your play style, so lets crush it into oblivion." It has a realism advantage. In the real world, someone wearing leather armor is at a huge disadvantage (in a straight up fight, obviously) to someone wearing full plate; that's why people came up with full plate... I don't want to play in the real world. I want to be Errol Flynn running around as Robin Hood, or Captain Blood, or Zorro.
Look at it from the POV of the other person - the one playing the knight in full plate. Is it fair for your Errol Flynn to be as good in combat as the knight is when Errol can actually swing from chandeliers, walk tightropes, can scale the castle walls without help, or doesn't need a major rescue operation when bull-rushed off the dam into the reservoir? Why should you have all the advantages and no disadvantage?
It would be interesting if the dex static bonus was applied to damage and a gradual amount of damage reduction was applied to armor. Damage reduction should scale based on the armor category (light, medium, or heavy) or, if someone wanted to take the time to detail it, it could be assigned to each type of armor specifically. At this point, the benefit to being a heavy handed fighter vs. a dex monkey would be the DR increase of the armor.
pad300 wrote: Volkard Abendroth wrote: pad300 wrote: Volkard Abendroth wrote: Taja the Barbarian wrote: So, a 16 Str / 10 Dex fighter in full plate will be +9 AC, while a 10 Str / 16 Dex Rogue in Leather will only be +5 AC while having the same speed and Penalties? Seems fairly harsh...
AKA "I don't like your play style, so lets crush it into oblivion." It has a realism advantage. In the real world, someone wearing leather armor is at a huge disadvantage (in a straight up fight, obviously) to someone wearing full plate; that's why people came up with full plate... I don't want to play in the real world. I want to be Errol Flynn running around as Robin Hood, or Captain Blood, or Zorro.
Look at it from the POV of the other person - the one playing the knight in full plate. Is it fair for your Errol Flynn to be as good in combat as the knight is when Errol can actually swing from chandeliers, walk tightropes, can scale the castle walls without help, or doesn't need a major rescue operation when bull-rushed off the dam into the reservoir? Why should you have all the advantages and no disadvantage? I don't think Robin Hood was concerned with the knights PoV.
Volkard Abendroth wrote: pad300 wrote: Volkard Abendroth wrote: pad300 wrote: Volkard Abendroth wrote: Taja the Barbarian wrote: So, a 16 Str / 10 Dex fighter in full plate will be +9 AC, while a 10 Str / 16 Dex Rogue in Leather will only be +5 AC while having the same speed and Penalties? Seems fairly harsh...
AKA "I don't like your play style, so lets crush it into oblivion." It has a realism advantage. In the real world, someone wearing leather armor is at a huge disadvantage (in a straight up fight, obviously) to someone wearing full plate; that's why people came up with full plate... I don't want to play in the real world. I want to be Errol Flynn running around as Robin Hood, or Captain Blood, or Zorro.
Look at it from the POV of the other person - the one playing the knight in full plate. Is it fair for your Errol Flynn to be as good in combat as the knight is when Errol can actually swing from chandeliers, walk tightropes, can scale the castle walls without help, or doesn't need a major rescue operation when bull-rushed off the dam into the reservoir? Why should you have all the advantages and no disadvantage? I don't think Robin Hood was concerned with the knights PoV. Gosh, you must be fun to game with - it's all about me and my character, nothing for the rest of the group... I'm thinking that paizo 's sales will encourage a different perspective.
pad300 wrote: Volkard Abendroth wrote: pad300 wrote: Volkard Abendroth wrote: Taja the Barbarian wrote: So, a 16 Str / 10 Dex fighter in full plate will be +9 AC, while a 10 Str / 16 Dex Rogue in Leather will only be +5 AC while having the same speed and Penalties? Seems fairly harsh...
AKA "I don't like your play style, so lets crush it into oblivion." It has a realism advantage. In the real world, someone wearing leather armor is at a huge disadvantage (in a straight up fight, obviously) to someone wearing full plate; that's why people came up with full plate... I don't want to play in the real world. I want to be Errol Flynn running around as Robin Hood, or Captain Blood, or Zorro.
Look at it from the POV of the other person - the one playing the knight in full plate. Is it fair for your Errol Flynn to be as good in combat as the knight is when Errol can actually swing from chandeliers, walk tightropes, can scale the castle walls without help, or doesn't need a major rescue operation when bull-rushed off the dam into the reservoir? Why should you have all the advantages and no disadvantage? You say that like the knight has more disadvantages compared to Errol with this proposed system. What's wrong with Dex based characters being able to do things?
The knight can also take more hits than Errol (Higher AC), can move just as fast, can burst through the doors/walls in his way rather than have to spend time picking them or finding a way around them, can still swim without penalties (and if it's str based like PF1 at a higher bonus) when bull rushed off, can scale the walls faster (assuming climb is still STR based), and can carry away the unconscious princess when she needs to be brought out of the burning building instead of having to drag her out.
This is literally a buff to STR based builds while nerfing Dex based builds.
PF1 had rules that penalized low strength, high dexterity builds, but no one used them because they were complicated and no fun. At strength 10, if you just wore a chain shirt, wielded a buckler and rapier, and had a back up dagger, you were already at maximum weight for light load. If you carried a torch or had a belt pouch with a few coins in it, your maximum bonus to AC from dexterity was now +3.
So most people ignored the encumbrance rules.
In PF2, they just need to make the encumbrance rules easy to understand and feel right, at least by the logic of the game.
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