Space Pirates and Overcharge


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I've been going through the Pact Worlds hardcover and there is a possible interaction between the space pirate theme and the mechanic trick Overcharge.

The space pirate gains the following:

Quote:

SWORD AND PISTOL (12TH)

You are well trained in a traditional piratical fighting style dating as far back as the antiquated ages before the Gap. When you are wielding at least one one-handed melee weapon and at least one small arm, you can make two attacks against the same target with one of each type of weapon as a standard action. Each attack takes the same –4 penalty as a full attack action.

The possible interaction with Overcharge comes from whether or not a mechanic can use the trick as a move action on a weapon they are holding. The text is somewhat ambiguous:

Quote:

Overcharge (Ex)

As a standard action, you can use your custom rig to overcharge and attack with a ranged energy weapon or a melee weapon with the powered special property (see page 181) that you’re holding. If you hit, you deal 1d6 additional damage of the same type the weapon normally deals. This attack uses three times as many charges from the battery or power cell as normal and can’t be used if the weapon doesn’t have enough charges. This trick has no effect on a weapon without a battery or power cell. You can instead use this ability as a move action on a touched powered weapon that is unattended or attended by an ally to grant the same effect to that weapon’s next attack before the beginning of your next turn.

The ambiguity comes from whether or not a character can treat an object in their possession as if it were unattended. Common sense would imply that they could, but a strict interpretation of the text would be that only unattended objects or those in the possession of allies are a valid target.

Granted, until the Sword and Pistol ability is gained, there is no benefit to a mechanic using a move action to Overcharge a weapon in their possession. With Sword and Pistol, however, a mechanic could potentially Overcharge (or more likely Improved Overcharge/Superior Overcharge) a pistol (since the Weapon Specialization bonus to small arms is only 1/2 level) as a move action, then attack twice against the same target as a standard action.

Would this be a candidate for a FAQ?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Wow.

As a standard action the mechanic powers a weapon he's holding and attacks.
As a move action the mechanic powers the weapon of an ally or an unattended one.

Where is the ambiguity in that?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The ambiguity is: Can a character treat an object in their possession as if it were unattended.

As mentioned, before Sword and Pistol there was no real reason to even ask, since there was no possible benefit. With Sword and Pistol and the common sense interpretation ("unattended" = "unrestricted access"), a mechanic could use Overcharge as a move action on one of their weapons and then attack twice as a standard action rather than being limited to a single attack with the normal "Overcharge and attack as a standard action."

I also mentioned the literal ("strict") interpretation. The issue is that other than "the rules don't say you can" what logical reason would prevent a mechanic from using Overcharge on an object in their possession as a move action, if they can do so with objects not in their possession that they can freely access?


I would say it is entirely possible under the assumption that you are your own ally. Hasn't that been a staple of all the D20 games?

Of course you still provoke an AoO for using the pistol in melee.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Maybe it's my bad grasp of the english language, but how can an item be unattended when it's in your possession? Don't those two adjectives cancel eachother out?


I would agree, if the item is on a person than it is attended.


Thirded. Unattended object means no one is holding onto it.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Torbyne wrote:

I would say it is entirely possible under the assumption that you are your own ally. Hasn't that been a staple of all the D20 games?

Of course you still provoke an AoO for using the pistol in melee.

I thought of this this morning, as well.

No FAQ needed. The precedents are clear: A character counts as their own ally.


Attended and Unattended object rules only apply to targets outside of your person. The only way I would suggest this works is if you used it as a move action on some pistol on the ground next to you or in someone else's hand and then somehow used a swift action (such as the called property) to grab it before utilizing your attack. It would be a free action to drop it afterwards so this should work as you're intending without having to worry about how the rules are interpreted.


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To work as Dragonchess is suggesting would negate the need for it to ever count as a standard action because if you counted as your own ally then it would always be a move action and there would be no need to differentiate between the two. Clearly as cool as it would be this does not work.


Vexies wrote:
To work as Dragonchess is suggesting would negate the need for it to ever count as a standard action because if you counted as your own ally then it would always be a move action and there would be no need to differentiate between the two. Clearly as cool as it would be this does not work.

I don't follow, the standard action option is enhanced action economy, it let's you use a move action to position and still overcharge a regular attack. It exists so that you don't have to spend a full round to use overcharge on your turn. If you want to move action overcharge and then standard action attack, you could always do that, but there was never a reason to consider it until now.


I think you could overcharge your own weapon as a move action. However this doesn't really have an interaction with sword and pistol style.

Here are your legal options for a single round.

- Overcharge a weapon as a move action.
- Overcharge a weapon and attack with it as a standard action
- Fire a pistol and make a melee attack as a standard action at the -4 penalty.

You can't overcharge as a standard and combine this with sword and pistol style. The attack you get to make as a part of overcharging as a standard is not the same as getting a standard action. It is similar to casting a touch spell and getting a free attack. You can't combine it with other standard actions. At least that's my read on it.

You could however overcharge as a move action, then take a standard action with sword and pistol style.

What you can't do is overcharge two weapons and attack with both of them.

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