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The fact that the format we chose for our dragons limits us to only a very short section of flavor for them is very unfortunate... but it's a format we're more or less stuck with. I did my absolute best to get as much flavor text into the books for these five dragons, but that best is pretty much the same as all other dragons—only a few lines of text. (I considered at one point only providing one stat block for all five dragons—for the ancient version of each, but abandoned that idea pretty soon for reasons).
Quote from the Dragons of Bestiary 6 Paizo Blog. From what I understand, monster stat blocks will be much MUCH more simple in 2E. Combine that with an opportunity to format True Dragons differently in 2E Bestiaries...maybe we can finally get the lore/flavor text we've all been craving from our True Dragons! Anyone else have thoughts on this? On other hopes/wishes involved with Paizo's opportunity to format Bestiaries differently?
Well that'll be good for the developers and GMs, the stat blocks are a bit unwieldy at higher levels.
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Everyone wants something different from their bestiary. Some would just like it to be a continuous list of as many statblocks as possible with minimum background information on the creatures, others want detailed and inspiring content from the lore description. And how much space illustrations should take up is a question all on its own.
Personally i like it when lore, statblock and illustration take up about equal amounts of the space, where the illustration is the first thing i'd scale down when things get crowded (as its the only thing you can make smaller without losing information).
More compact stat blocks are a good thing no matter what you prefer because they always allow for more of the thing that you like, not matter which that is.
I'm curious to see what the new stat blocks will look like. I'd much prefer something that requires as little information to be looked up from other places as possible, which in itself goes counter to making them more compact, but 5e dnd for example managed to pull it off with the way they redesigned their system. The only mechanical information you can't find in a creature's statblocks are spells that they use.
I hope that monster design in general will be as streamlined a process in 2e as it is in current DnD. Being able to make a monster wihtout having every number being tethered to another number somkewhere else makes it so much easier to put together a unique creature and frees the DM from the limitations of the Bestiaries.
I don't see how stat blocks can be more simple without removing information from them or removing half the mechanics in the game.
While not directly on topic, I'd just like Dragons to feel like a threat again.
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that is one element I am hoping will change in the new books, whether its a result of Paizo streamlining monsters or just giving monsters more flavor text. It's not so bad for the chromatics and metallics, which are grandfathered in from older editions and which there is already a lot of material about (including Dragons Revisited), but for the newer original Paizo dragons? Yeah...there isn't in my mind enough flavor text to really tell me why and when I should use these dragons over the originals.
that is one element I am hoping will change in the new books, whether its a result of Paizo streamlining monsters or just giving monsters more flavor text. It's not so bad for the chromatics and metallics, which are grandfathered in from older editions and which there is already a lot of material about (including Dragons Revisited), but for the newer original Paizo dragons? Yeah...there isn't in my mind enough flavor text to really tell me why and when I should use these dragons over the originals.
100% agree. Dragon's Revisited is one of my favourite books for what it contains. An update containing the non-core dragons would be very helpful.
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Simple stat blocks and short stat blocks aren't the same thing.
It's a lot simpler to follow a stat block if it explains all the mechanics in the stat block itself rather than you having to look them up in Universal Monster Abilities, feat lists, Dragon Senses, etc. But this makes the stat blocks longer.
While not directly on topic, I'd just like Dragons to feel like a threat again.
They're still a threat. They tend to have parties on the verge of a TPK when I use them. However I don't have them starting off with a direct attack when I use them. I'll have them in advantageous terrain and/or have them ambush the party. I also get rid of most(not all) weak feats and spells.
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I don't see how stat blocks can be more simple without removing information from them or removing half the mechanics in the game.
PF already kinda did this over 3.5. You add more Universal monster abilities to remove information from the block except the name. But it does make the GM have to look elsewhere for the details...
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Despite me 100% wanting the PC/NPC rules to remain unified. I think there should be some elegant way to make some monsters have a lot of HP for their HD. Like some "Alpha" template or sub-type that gives the creature 2x health without breaking the consistency. Boss Fights sometimes get too short, after all.. The unified system is superior for everything else.
They already do this with some BBEG in the APs where they'll have some fiendish boon that gives them insane HP/AC.
or removing half the mechanics in the game.
Now you're catching on.
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Dragons get their own book, all of em.
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I hope Linnorms are still a thing.
As popular as they seem to be (or maybe your constant linnorm posts make it seem inflated about how much people want them :D ) I'm willing to bet they will make it make into a bestiary at some point.
Dragons get their own book, all of em.
I am also hoping they will do a Bestiary of dragons, although if it is only True Dragons, I won't mind so long as the other dragons appear in the normal Bestiaries.
Dragons get their own book, all of em.I am also hoping they will do a Bestiary of dragons, although if it is only True Dragons, I won't mind so long as the other dragons appear in the normal Bestiaries.
I'd even be fine with lesser dragon types, half-dragons, and a [not]dragonborn[/not] race being included.
The Dragon Soul was a decent start.
A bestiary of dragons would be awesome.
Dragons get their own book, all of em.I am also hoping they will do a Bestiary of dragons, although if it is only True Dragons, I won't mind so long as the other dragons appear in the normal Bestiaries.I'd even be fine with lesser dragon types, half-dragons, and a [not]dragonborn[/not] race being included.
The Dragon Soul was a decent start.
Dragonborn are just posers! Kobolds all the way! Wyvarans are kinda cool, too.
Dragons get their own book, all of em.I am also hoping they will do a Bestiary of dragons, although if it is only True Dragons, I won't mind so long as the other dragons appear in the normal Bestiaries.I'd even be fine with lesser dragon types, half-dragons, and a [not]dragonborn[/not] race being included.
The Dragon Soul was a decent start.
I would love if it in PF2 they could eventually do a book similar in style to the Draconomicon from D&D 3.5e. It was an enormous hard cover book that was filled with rules, lore, and even premade NPC dragons of the basic Chromatic/metallic types of all age groups for use in games.
It remains by far my favorite 3.5 book.
Dragons get their own book, all of em.I am also hoping they will do a Bestiary of dragons, although if it is only True Dragons, I won't mind so long as the other dragons appear in the normal Bestiaries.I'd even be fine with lesser dragon types, half-dragons, and a [not]dragonborn[/not] race being included.
The Dragon Soul was a decent start.
I would love if it in PF2 they could eventually do a book similar in style to the Draconomicon from D&D 3.5e. It was an enormous hard cover book that was filled with rules, lore, and even premade NPC dragons of the basic Chromatic/metallic types of all age groups for use in games.
It remains by far my favorite 3.5 book.
The Draconomicon was my first, and is still my favorite, D&D book.
So yes we want dragon book.
While not directly on topic, I'd just like Dragons to feel like a threat again.They're still a threat. They tend to have parties on the verge of a TPK when I use them. However I don't have them starting off with a direct attack when I use them. I'll have them in advantageous terrain and/or have them ambush the party. I also get rid of most(not all) weak feats and spells.
Outside of grossly out of balance encounters, I've never felt a dragon to be a threat. Advantageous terrain or not. Action economy does them in. Adding mooks to the fight makes it no longer just a dangerous dragon.
Switching up to 2nd Edition is a perfect opportunity for them to equalize the dragon colors, so that they actually CAN use the same base stat block for a Young Dragon of any color, an Ancient Dragon of any color, and so on. Even if they end up treating Chromatics, Metallics and etc differently, so that Chromatics get different stat blocks than Metallics, it still cuts out a lot of chaff.
So, you have at least a two page spread for what is the "base" for dragons. Each color of dragon then gets its own page or two. Each color's entry gets its art, gets its lore, and gets all the modifiers and abilities to make them stand apart from other dragons of the same age.
As for whether dragons can be a threat with limited action economy compared to a whole party of player characters, they need to take a note from other games and let some monsters just be more elite than others. Elites or "boss" class monsters should be able to get two turns per round, or have multiple reactions per turn which they can use to help control the battlefield and make extra attacks, or so forth.
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Switching up to 2nd Edition is a perfect opportunity for them to equalize the dragon colors, so that they actually CAN use the same base stat block for a Young Dragon of any color, an Ancient Dragon of any color, and so on. Even if they end up treating Chromatics, Metallics and etc differently, so that Chromatics get different stat blocks than Metallics, it still cuts out a lot of chaff.
So, you have at least a two page spread for what is the "base" for dragons. Each color of dragon then gets its own page or two. Each color's entry gets its art, gets its lore, and gets all the modifiers and abilities to make them stand apart from other dragons of the same age.
As for whether dragons can be a threat with limited action economy compared to a whole party of player characters, they need to take a note from other games and let some monsters just be more elite than others. Elites or "boss" class monsters should be able to get two turns per round, or have multiple reactions per turn which they can use to help control the battlefield and make extra attacks, or so forth.
If, stats wise, all dragons are the same, what's the point even of having different kinds of dragon?
If, stats wise, all dragons are the same, what's the point even of having different kinds of dragon?Switching up to 2nd Edition is a perfect opportunity for them to equalize the dragon colors, so that they actually CAN use the same base stat block for a Young Dragon of any color, an Ancient Dragon of any color, and so on. Even if they end up treating Chromatics, Metallics and etc differently, so that Chromatics get different stat blocks than Metallics, it still cuts out a lot of chaff.
So, you have at least a two page spread for what is the "base" for dragons. Each color of dragon then gets its own page or two. Each color's entry gets its art, gets its lore, and gets all the modifiers and abilities to make them stand apart from other dragons of the same age.
As for whether dragons can be a threat with limited action economy compared to a whole party of player characters, they need to take a note from other games and let some monsters just be more elite than others. Elites or "boss" class monsters should be able to get two turns per round, or have multiple reactions per turn which they can use to help control the battlefield and make extra attacks, or so forth.
The base stat blocks would be the same. But each dragon species would then "template" over this base with extra abilities and modifiers. For example, a red dragon has more Strength and Constitution, has fire abilities, its breath uses the cone shape, and gets other different supernatural and spellcasting abilities compared to a green, blue or whatever.
Give us a full dragon chassis, and let us build Dragons like full NPCs.
Different breeds would be like classes.
Do it.
Or fulfill my 14-year old girl dream and give me clear concise rules to play a wyrmling or very young dragon as a player character. They don't need to be big, they don't even need to grow up considering the time scale that would take.
(I doubt this is going to happen, but couldn't hurt to ask.)