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Now, one thing I am interested in hearing about, is player/GM reaction to the end of this scenario (specifically the big reveal inside Salvation's End.) I want to know what people think this means and where they could see it going. If someone is so inclined, I'd love to see a spoilers-included post on the Starfinder Organized Play boards starting a discussion on this topic.
It's something I certainly want fan feedback on!
As requested;
Several players gasped at the reveal. First they thought the Dwarves were actually robots ("Critical Error" as response to "Hello" in common). After confirming they were flesh and blood, they speculated whether Salvation's End was a chunk of Golarion and this was the beginning of a quest to discover what happened to the lost planet.
We were running late but they continued to speculate about what the moon actually was (and who built it) while I was filling out chronicle sheets. Eg, were they participating in a reality show inside another reality show? Is this an elaborate setup by Zo! for the best reality show ever? Or is this an abandoned alien zoo? Maybe this is what the Greys have been up to with all the abductions?
The players unanimously and emphatically recommended Luwazi negotiate a sequel. Some players at the neighboring table playing Pathfinder jumped from "YES!" being shouted when I asked the question.
Venture-Captain, Illinois—Fairview Heights
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As for the big reveal, every player went back into the booth to provide their speculation. The alien zoo was one. A controlled experiment with an unknown purpose was another, but my favorite were the two Gap conspiracies, the second of which is my own.
A) An entity (possibly a deity) became aware of the Gap before it happened and created a space ark within the moon, shielding it against the Gap to preserve as many sapient species as possible
B) Triune is responsible for the Gap and prior to setting the Gap in motion collected hundreds of sapient species, mind-wiped them and put them in a simulation as a means to study the various races and how they would react to different historical events based on varied inputs. Simultaneously, the Gap would effectively create an opportunity for Triune to present itself as a deity by saving the races and introducing the Drift. Furthermore, a forgetful Golarion could theoretically be susceptible to Triune's influence, broadening their ability to guide the future. This was discovered by other deities who were able to "squirrel away" Golarion prior to the Gap actually taking place, thus keeping Rovagug safely imprisoned.
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I am so jealous of your experience Jacob because...
I rand 1-09 for players who were brand new to Starfinder and never played Pathfinder or who payed no attention to the lore, so the lore reveals were met with blank expressions as they waited for something to shoot at.
My personal theory is that, given that the dwarves were replicating ancient Golarion (pre-current era in PFS campaign) that the false moon represents an alien zoo of some super-ancient race that visited Golarion pre-Starfall and collected some species while replicating their natural habitat.
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The party guessed what was happening pretty spot on...
and then went and theorized about what happened and went pretty off the rails. From actor dwarves that were planted by ZO! and company to cyborg dwarfbots (which they at least went through the trouble of xraying before trying to magnetize) and cryostasis pickles.
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This is my personal view on it, having run it as a GM but also as a Paizo fanboy;
One of the things that caught my eye but none of my players noticed is the pictured dwarves were dwarves, not duergar. Not only did they see the scenario's drawings of Ylga and Holsin, but I described the tone of their skin (eg, Ylga had "rosey cheeks", Holsin had "blue eyes") to see if they'd catch on.
Had anyone else's name be on the cover of the scenario we could chalk this up to an oversight, but based on what I've read by John Compton he's far too detail-oriented to make this glaring of a mistake.
If you'll recall, both dwarves and orcs changed after they reached the surface. Their bodies had not previously known sunlight, they had superior darkvision (120') and light sensitivity, the only reason they were able to survive the surface is that the Quest for the Sky began with the fall of the starstone so both dwarves and orcs emerged to an age of darkness and were able to adapt over many generations as light returned to the surface.
Even if we ignore the drawings in the scenario, these dwarves have standard darkvision (60') and lack the light sensitivity of their ancient ancestors. They have the eyes of dwarves evolved for sunlight.
No, this clan of dwarves were not abducted while on the Quest for the Sky. At some point, surface dwelling dwarves must have been abducted and their memories selectively altered such to believe they had always lived underground. That is no small feat.
If Drow survived to Starfinder's present day, surely duergar did too. Even if they didn't, any people with the technology to create a structure the scale of Salvations End and alter memory should be able to genetically regress the abducted dwarves to resemble their duergar ancestors.
Since physiology and sociology are inter-related, this rules out any sort of sociology experiment. With all the other details so right, it feels like this out of place detail is actually intentional.
I'm left with one conclusion: this was designed for entertainment purposes. Maybe this simulation was commissioned by one wealthy dwarf for his retirement, or its a reality show that started during the Gap that's been forgotten but still operating - until a modern day reality show stumbles into it.
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Arc, wheres that from? I thought the point of quest for sky was to avoid...something... rising up from even deeper below that made people go all dark and evil and drowish.
The Inner Sea World Guide pages 66 & 67 have some info about the quest for sky. It was a prophecy given by Torag. The Duergar is what became of the Dwarves that ignored the quest.
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Dwarves of Golarian page 7 also detailed Torag's prophesy; "when the ground shook beneath their feet, they must press upward to the surface. When the Starstone crashed to the earth in –5293 AR, the dwarves saw this as the earthquake they were waiting for"
Orcs of Golarian further details the two races adaptation to light on page 4; "Centuries of fighting ensued before, to the orcs’ dismay, Golarion’s long night finally turned once again to day, robbing the orcs of their advantage over the humans and suddenly giving the dwarves—who for the most part peacefully coexisted with most humans, and were quicker to adapt to the surface’s glaring light—the upper hand."
Duergar didn't just remain, but turned from Torag to worship the "Dark Smith" Droskar. Dwarves of Golarian page 17, "These dwarves became the duergar—ashen-skinned, bald-pated warriors every bit as savage and cruel as the Darklands races who had preyed upon them for so long"
While Duergar may have been physically changed due to divine influence or worsening conditions in the darklands, before Dwarves reached the surface they were the same race. Their eyes had the same light sensitivity, and dwarves of that era undoubtedly more closely resembled their duergar cousins than Pathfinder-era dwarves who had adapted to the surface over many generations.
I imagine a Starfinder-era History channel recreating the Quest for the Sky, showing a modern-day dwarf breaking through to the surface. His eyes matching the blueness of the blue sky he's seeing for the first time, he emerges with flowing red locks and tanned skin to claim the surface for his race. He then raises his mighty hammer to defend some pitiful humans being attacked by fearsome Orcs nearby.
The producers of such a recreation are not ignorant, but they know a majority of this program's audience are dwarves. Their audience doesn't want to see pale-skinned dwarves with colorless eyes, they want to see dwarves they can relate to.
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I'm not seeing anything there that says that dwarves weren't dwarf colored before hitting the surface , which is what you'd need to to infer that these dwarves ancestors were grey flying saucer abducted after reaching the surface rather than mid quest. Quite the opposite, it makes it sound like duregar changed from staying down there with whatever the dwarves were running away from (echoes of rovagag?)
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I'm not seeing anything there that says that dwarves weren't dwarf colored before hitting the surface , which is what you'd need to to infer that these dwarves ancestors were grey flying saucer abducted after reaching the surface rather than mid quest. Quite the opposite, it makes it sound like duregar changed from staying down there with whatever the dwarves were running away from (echoes of rovagag?)
You'll need to provide a reference regarding their fleeing something, I've read pretty much everything Paizo has published on the Pathfinder campaign setting and I can't recall anything of the sort.
The dwarves originated underground, either by their creation myth that Torag created them in a great forge or from an evolutionary process. Either way, their bodies were designed for darkness and were adapted to the point that they could drive the beastial pre-surface Orcs to the surface.
Rovagag was unknown to the darklands, Orcs only learned of him after reaching the surface world. At that point, the elves had fled through their interplanetary gates, mostly back to Castrovel where they originated from. What little I've read regarding the origin of the Drow points to "letting evil into their hearts" as the cause for their physical transformation, but since they were not mentioned as part of the ancient dwarf/orc conflict I'd be inclined to say that they came about after the elves return to Golarion.
In Orcs of Golarian it states that both dwarves and orcs had to adapt to the surface, dwarves gained an sizable advantage by being the first to lose their light sensitivity near the end of the age of darkness.
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You'll need to provide a reference regarding their fleeing something
The dwarves get a warning/prophecy from their god to leave, and directly after that something down there starts turning dwarves gnomes and elves that don't get out evil? Torag isn't a deity that says "you disobeyed me now suffer my wrath!" so I don't think its a stretch to conclude he told them to get out for a good reason.
Rovagag was unknown to the darklands, Orcs only learned of him after reaching the surface world.
That one is personal speculation. We know rovagag is down there somewhere.
In Orcs of Golarian it states that both dwarves and orcs had to adapt to the surface, dwarves gained an sizable advantage by being the first to lose their light sensitivity near the end of the age of darkness.
What specifies light sensitivity as a racial trait as opposed more to getting used to surface life, you know, with neighbors that don't necessarily want to kill you, 2 dimensional building, and crazy things like water falling from the sky and the air moving around at 80 miles an hour and bolts of electricity arching out of nowhere (lost SO many dwarves learning not to shake their hammers at the sky....)
Dwarves spend a lot of time around forges, which literally glow white hot. It would strike me as odd that they were light sensitive.
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The dwarves get a warning/prophecy from their god to leave, and directly after that something down there starts turning dwarves gnomes and elves that don't get out evil?
In no source material I've read has ever been called a "warning". If you've seen something different please reference a specific book or passage.
After some research today the official setting material I could find to support this is the mysterious origin of the Drow is from "Second Darkness" AP which does place their origin during the Age of Darkness caused by Rovagug's brief awakening.
However, I've never seen a reference connecting either the Dwarves or Duergar and Rovagug. The Duergar is a different story found on page 21 of Into the Darklands page 21, Rovagug had nothing to do with their turning to evil.
Rovagag was unknown to the darklands, Orcs only learned of him after reaching the surface world.That one is personal speculation. We know rovagag is down there somewhere.
No, that's straight out of Orcs of Golarian page 3 where its repeatedly and clearly stated that orcs first learned of Rovagug after raiding churches and temples on the surface, and only then did Rovagug notice them.
What specifies light sensitivity as a racial trait as opposed more to getting used to surface life
Orcs of Golarian page 4, "Centuries of fighting ensued before, to the orcs’ dismay, Golarion’s long night finally turned once again to day, robbing the orcs of their advantage over the humans and suddenly giving the dwarves—who for the most part peacefully coexisted with most
humans, and were quicker to adapt to the surface’s glaring light—the upper hand."Into the Darklands page 19, "The dwarves found life on the surface much to their liking; the relatively shallow caves above NarVoth were much easier to rule, and they adapted to the return of the sun with much greater grace than the orcs."
I'm not sure how much clearer this could be stated, Dwarves and Orcs shared light sensitivity but Dwarves adapted while Orcs did not.
Their Duergar cousins also forge weapons, but forges do not create bright light. Light sensitivity is quite common for creatures native to the darklands including those who build forges.
However, bright light caused by the camera/lighting crew is a documented issue in this scenario - yet Ylga and the other dwarves had no reaction to it. This is just as important of a clue to their true origin as if they had reacted to the lights.
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Overall I had a blast, and this scenario was everything I was hoping it to be! A couple things though...
We also didn't deal with the rainbow armadillo nonlethally, though that's more on me running a more combat-centric character both crunch and fluff wise. Apparently "they're usually pretty docile" wasn't much of a deterrent, even if I was curious why it got out of hand. XD (Kinda makes me wish Starfinder had 5e's rule of "Do you wanna take them out nonlethally?" Or at the very least, a "set your phasers on stun" option, but I digress.)
On the plus side though, we had several funny moments, including, but not limited to...
-Our group frequently referring to the rainbow armadillo as a mastiff after our GM gave us a size comparison.
-Several bad puns for your viewing pleasure.
-Me almost blowing myself up with shoddy flamethrower handling.
-A shipping war amongst the fans about whether our lashunta envoy should be with me, our Ysoki Mechanic, or the Ysoki's drone, Ms. Frisbee.
-An innuendo-laden conversation about tossing my character into a lubricated orifice.
-Me choosing whether to cut off the leg or cut off the leg of the final boss.
-Our aforementioned Lashunta envoy winning a Fanservice Point before it was all said and done.
I also got my mileage out of my ridiculous Acrobatics bonus (+9 for a Level 2 Human Soldier), avoiding a clutch AoO from the final boss while I pushed our Android Operative out of harm's way and being literally unable to fail an Acrobatics check to stay on my feet while Greased up, so long as I wasn't being flashy about it. XD
But yeah, all in all, an awesome session, and I was all for a sequel episode!
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In no source material I've read has ever been called a "warning". If you've seen something different please reference a specific book or passage.
"GET THE HECK OUT!" followed by something terrible happening is a warning. Either the prophecy didn't happen, something terrible didn't happen, or that was a warning. I don't need to have that exact word used for the word to apply.
However, I've never seen a reference connecting either the Dwarves or Duergar and Rovagug. The Duergar is a different story found on page 21 of Into the Darklands page 21, Rovagug had nothing to do with their turning to evil.
Golarion holds rovagag at the center. Start digging you get closer to the center.
No, that's straight out of Orcs of Golarian page 3 where its repeatedly and clearly stated that orcs first learned of Rovagug after raiding churches and temples on the surface, and only then did Rovagug notice them.
Ahem. No. Rovagag being what corrupted the drow, the duregar, and whatever else lives down there is my personal speculation on what happened. I am not claiming it as a fact. I noted it with a question mark in parantheses, stated it as such. Multiple times.
Into the Darklands page 19, "The dwarves found life on the surface much to their liking; the relatively shallow caves above NarVoth were much easier to rule, and they adapted to the return of the sun with much greater grace than the...
Neither of those is a racial light sensitivity trait taken out of the species by reproductive selection. It could just be a "holy cow that's bright" followed by a few weeks of walking around squinting before getting on with the orc slaying.
Also these dwarves have apparently spent a good long while around computer monitors, enough to know a few words of common either spoken by the computer or from the writing.
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"GET THE HECK OUT!" followed by something terrible happening is a warning.
Torag's prophesy wasn't to get out, it was to go to. That's a subtle but important difference. From a god of righteous warfare its much more likely he forsaw the thousand years of war on the surface during the Age of Darkness.
The dwarves were also in no particular rush to reach the surface, the first 160 years of it was spent fighting among themselves. Then united by Taargick, it took them another 135 years to reach the surface.
Neither of those is a racial light sensitivity trait taken out of the species by reproductive selection. It could just be a "holy cow that's bright" followed by a few weeks of walking around squinting before getting on with the orc slaying.
The sky brightened slowly, over generations as the Age of Darkness ended and more sunlight reached the surface. The dwarves wouldn't have to adapt to the sun if they were not light sensitive.
At least in Pathfinder era, Orcs still had the light sensitive weakness. If the dwarves in that era were not light sensitive, "adapt" would have been replaced with a word such as "tolerated", or to even specify that dwarves lack of light sensitivity gave them a clear advantage over the orcs once the sun started to return.
We know the film crew uses bright lights from page 9, and from that encounter we know light was a factor considered while writing this scenario.
Also these dwarves have apparently spent a good long while around computer monitors, enough to know a few words of common either spoken by the computer or from the writing.
The part about Common in the module, page 13, "She also recognizes the sound of Common, for the failing simulation machinery has sometimes uttered warnings in the language. Thus, Common is associated with earthen spirits or even divine messengers, particularly since these voices have begun to appear more regularly than actual outsiders."
A PC with a computer that includes an Artificial Personality and being able to cast a language spell on Ylga so she can understand Common would be able to exploit this fact, and these few phrases of Common that Ylga knows is just enough to prompt the PCs to ask where she heard it from.
Also, wait - why is the machinery speaking in Common? From both #1-00 and #1-09 we know this isn't the native language of whoever built Salvations End, but was known to them.. so why wouldn't the machinery speak in the the builder's native tongue?
The machinery would have to be speaking to someone inside the simulation, someone who selected Common as their language. A wealthy patron, possibly one who died inside the simulation?
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Gorum is the god of "massive fight on the surface, don't want to miss the party, CHARGE!" He's chaotic neutral.
Torag is the god of dwarven combat. He is the lawful good god of fighting for the just and noble cause of defending your people and their livelihoods. He is not going to upend his entire people, get thousands of them killed so his followers can revel in glorious combat for the sake of glorious combat. (Even Gorum would probably balk at that).
Keep the big picture in mind before micro analyzing synonyms for meaning that simply isn't there.
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I loved this scenario. I had an actual booth for this as my game store started doing some remodeling with some side rooms that used to be locker rooms (The store was a gym several years ago and new landlord is allowing the store owner to make changes). The booth was not sound proof at all so everyone heard what was said but it created the illusion of privacy so people would say what they thought.
I borrowed some notecards from a player and put a folded note card in front of each player with their name and as the scenario progressed I would grab the card and write “titles” for the player corresponding to their actions and what other players said about them. They players could see each other players titles but not their own. Not everyone got a title as some did not get into the spirit of the scenario (1 was a new player frustrated with the poorly built solarion pregen and one player kept a low profile intentionally).
Used titles like “Clueless Do-Gooder” “At least he’s not a gnome” “Sarcastic Witty Rodent” “Well Lubricated Lizard” “Captain Showboat” (Tis what another player called him in the booth) “Tumble Champion of Rockwald County and Ocean Blvd” (Cause he overly used acrobatics at every single time to impress the cameras and we established every location in Absalon station is on Ocean Blvd if it isn’t called out in the scene).
I look forward to future versions of this scenario. One of my players made it clear that they should be using drone cameras but everyone else loved the fact that the undead camera crew got some collateral damage for the blooper reel, makes up for fact they got used as cover several times by the ‘orcs.’
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Gorum is the god of "massive fight on the surface, don't want to miss the party, CHARGE!" He's chaotic neutral.
Torag's "just and noble cause" could have been to lead his children to the surface during the Age of Darkness where they could help protect human civilization from the hoards of threats they faced. Or Torag may have not forseen the Starstone crashing into Golarian and intended an entirely different great earthquake in his prophesy.
But Torag isn't present in Starfinder and his reason for that ancient prophesy is irrelevant now.
Nothing in this thread effectively refutes the dwarves lack of sensitivity to daylight. The presence and intensity of this lighting is documented SFS #1-09 page 9 under "Crew", and Starfinder Core Rulebook page 261 defines Bright Light as "any source as bright or brighter than normal sunlight". This is backed up in the Spicodranth stat block.
Multiple above-cited Pathfinder campaign setting sources detail that dwarves adapted to sunlight after reaching the surface, and that adapting faster than Orcs gave them the advantage as the Age of Darkness ended. Even if pre-surface dwarves didn't have "Light Sensitivity", they should have had a visible and strong reaction to the portable lighting which would support evidence that they were indeed descended from pre-surface dwarves.
Therefore I believe this rules out theories such as ancient abduction, time travel, etc. This even challenges the notion that they've lived their entire lives undisturbed in the simulation, more likely their memories have been tampered with.
More importantly, the machinery speaking error messages in common to the dwarves inside the recreation - which is not native to the race who built Salvations End or known by the dwarves inside the simulation.
Given this, I believe the most likely situation is that the whole simulation is full of clones - lab grown from modern dwarves, their memories implanted, for the benefit of a single wealthy dwarf who selected Common as the interface language. Since dwarves are strong traditionalists, he likely wanted to live out his retirement in the most glorious of dwarven historical endeavours.
Plus, "Salvations End" really does sound like the name of a retirement home.
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My table loved this mod more than words. The vesk blackhole metal rockstar in particular was going to ascend to heaven. I lay it on thick when I portray Zo! so he's hard for the players to forget. I could really go on and on. My favorite module so far.
Organized Play Lead Developer
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My table loved this mod more than words. The vesk blackhole metal rockstar in particular was going to ascend to heaven. I lay it on thick when I portray Zo! so he's hard for the players to forget. I could really go on and on. My favorite module so far.
As with all products, I encourage folks to post reviews on the adventure's product page. Let us know what we've done right, what you'd like to see more of (both game mechanics and story elements), and where we can improve (ideally in a constructive way). Some write very verbose reviews, which are great, yet even shorter reviews are often helpful.