Which one gets applied first?

[Slyme]

For a Brawler character wielding a shield with the Bashing enchantment as a weapon, which gets applied first, Bashing or Close Weapon Mastery?

Close Weapon Mastery:

At 5th level, a brawler’s damage with close weapons increases. When wielding a close weapon, she uses the unarmed strike damage of a brawler 4 levels lower instead of the base damage for that weapon (for example, a 5th-level Medium brawler wielding a punching dagger deals 1d6 points of damage instead of the weapon’s normal 1d4). If the weapon normally deals more damage than this, its damage is unchanged. This ability does not affect any other aspect of the weapon. The brawler can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of her adjusted unarmed strike damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made.

Bashing:

A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.

I've seen both sides argued, but never found a definitive answer. I can understand both sides of the argument, and I am unsure which side I lean towards.

If Bashing gets applied first, then overwritten by CWM then Bashing is useless on a Brawler wielding a shield. If CWM gets applied first, it scales up amazingly at higher levels.

[Nefreet]

Excellent question, wrong Forum.

You've stumbled upon the Forum for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. This is the area for asking campaign specific questions such as Chronicle Sheets, Additional Resources, Fame, Prestige, Scenarios and so on.

Since your question is purely about the rules, I'll go ahead and flag your post to be relocated over to the Rules Questions Forum so it can best get the attention and answer it deserves (even if it's regarding a PFS character of yours).

If you're looking for a Campaign Clarification, simply link this thread in the Stickied "Compilation of Campaign Clarification Requests" thread at the top of this Forum. If it turns out to be contentious and ambiguous, Campaign Leadership may eventually issue a clarification down the road.

[Slyme]

I asked on the rules forum, and since this is for a PFS character and not a home game I was referred here.

[BigNorseWolf]

For PFS, take the worst answer and use that. This sort of rules question is headache inducing to figure out, has no objective answer and not something you want to hand a DM before the game.

[Dave Setty]

A bashing shield "deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger". I read that as replacing the base damage of the weapon. So it'll do it's own damage or your Close Weapon Mastery damage, whichever is greater, but they won't stack with each other.

[Tallow]

There is an FAQ regarding how to apply two damage size increasing effects on the same shield.

[Scott Mcgroarty]

Assuming it works the same as warpriest damage bump it wouldn't stack. The brawler damage boost is based on the pc, not the weapon. Same with wielding a large weapon, you'd still be a medium brawler, and get the medium brawler damage.

[Slyme]

David Setty wrote:

A bashing shield "deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger". I read that as replacing the base damage of the weapon. So it'll do it's own damage or your Close Weapon Mastery damage, whichever is greater, but they won't stack with each other.

I read Bashing that way too...but I also read CWM as replacing the base weapon damage. Which is why I need to know which one gets applied first. If bashing gets applied first, it is a worthless enchantment for a Brawler, if CWM gets applied first then Bashing can actually be useful to a Brawler past level 5.

Tallow wrote:

There is an FAQ regarding how to apply two damage size increasing effects on the same shield.

Close weapon mastery is not a size increasing effect, it replaces a weapons damage with your brawlers unarmed strike damage.

Scott Mcgroarty wrote:

Assuming it works the same as warpriest damage bump it wouldn't stack. The brawler damage boost is based on the pc, not the weapon. Same with wielding a large weapon, you'd still be a medium brawler, and get the medium brawler damage.

I can see both sides of the argument. The wording of Close Weapon Mastery makes it look like your unarmed damage replaces the base weapon damage of the weapon. CWM specifically calls out base weapon damage twice in its description, while the Warpriests Sacred Weapon only mentions that they can choose to use the weapons base damage instead of the sacred weapon damage if they want.

For the time being I'm just going to put the character on hold. If shield spikes and/or the Bashing enchantment are worthless for the character, I don't want to waste gold buying them.

[Nefreet]

Good rule of thumb (and I believe it was even mentioned by John Compton in this Forum) is that if an option seems "too good to be true", such as having an overpowered effect for very little investment, you probably need to look at the options again.

[Slyme]

True enough, but is 12 levels in a class, 18000gp for a shield, and every feat your character has very little investment?

Is ~200 DPR on a fully buffed full attack (if everything actually hits and makes it though DR) at level 12 game breaking?

Is an average of 7 damage per hit from a combination of class feature and enchantment "too good to be true"?

[Scott Mcgroarty]

If you just stick with a medium sized shield it's not too crazy, but a huge light shield is a 2 handed weapon for a medium creature, add bashing it counts as colossal. That said I have no idea if inappropriate weapon size rules apply in any way to shields.

[Scott Mcgroarty]

Add an enlarge person effect and your shield functions as a size that does not exist in pathfinder for extra fun!

[Slyme]

There are no rules for inappropriately sized shields, only for weapons...I suppose you could skip using it as a shield to be able to acquire one sized up to begin with and use it strictly as a weapon.

So...your huge sized 2 handed light shield would do 1d10 base damage, not be usable as a shield anymore, and give a -4 to hit for being 2 size categories away from your characters size. Bashing would shift the damage dice up 2 more steps to 3d8. You are now doing roughly the same damage as a greatsword with Impact on it, but at a -4 to hit and you lost your shield bonus.

Thinking of it as named size categories sounds ridiculous, but if you look at it from a mechanical standpoint of simple dice progression you can scale things infinitely, which is why those dice progression charts exist.

[Scott Mcgroarty]

But think of how fun it would be to walk around with a barn door for a weapon!

[Scott Mcgroarty]

A huge light shield would only be 1d6 (that's what bashing makes a medium light shield effectively), bashing would bump it to 1d10. But if the effective size of the weapon mattered to warpriest's sacred weapon...

[Slyme]

Still doesn't solve the conundrum if which effect gets applied first.

Close Weapon Mastery basically means Brawler's are better at using close weapons and do more damage with them. The Bashing enchantment makes a shield better at doing damage. Logically it would make sense for someone who is better at doing damage who uses a better weapon to do even better damage.

It would be like the difference between a Barbarian swinging a sword so dull and rusty it cant cut paper, to one with a finely sharped edge.

[dragonhunterq]

They do not interact. Use one or the other.

CWM is a replacement effect that lets you use unarmed strike damage instead of weapon damage.

Bashing increases your weapon damage, not your unarmed strike damage.

[Slyme]

CWM lets you use your unarmed damage as weapon damage. You are not using your unarmed strike, you cannot use any feats or items meant for unarmed attacks with CWM, it simply changes how much damage your weapon does.

[SCPRedMage]

Slyme wrote:

Still doesn't solve the conundrum if which effect gets applied first.

Close Weapon Mastery basically means Brawler's are better at using close weapons and do more damage with them. The Bashing enchantment makes a shield better at doing damage. Logically it would make sense for someone who is better at doing damage who uses a better weapon to do even better damage.

It would be like the difference between a Barbarian swinging a sword so dull and rusty it cant cut paper, to one with a finely sharped edge.

Logically it would make sense that a spiked shield with Bashing would do more damage than a non-spiked shield with Bashing, but that's officially not the case.

As to this particular interaction, I'm with Mr. Setty. The bashing enchantment increases a heavy shield's "base damage" to 1d8; Close Weapon Mastery replaces that, if it's greater.

[Nefreet]

Slyme wrote:

it simply changes how much damage your weapon does.

That would be the definition of a "replacement effect".

A Heavy Shield with Bashing deals 1d8 damage whether it's wielded by a Peasant, a Wizard, a Fighter or a Brawler.

Once a Brawler acquires Close Weapon Mastery and a sufficient level, their replacement damage will be higher than 1d8.

If it worked the way you're wanting it to, that damage shoots up, for an investment of only 4000gp.

That is pretty close to "Too good to be true".

[Slyme]

The "replacement effect" still does not solve the issue. The issue is which one gets applied first...bashing is a magical enchantment, not a physical change to the shield...

Option 1, CWM first: CWM replaces the base damage of the shield...the base damage of the shield is 1d3 for a light shield or 1d4 for a heavy shield, which then gets changed to the appropriate damage for the characters brawler level (Lets say level 11 for a PFS character), this makes the base damage for either shield 1d8. Then Bashing gets applied bumping the damage to 3d6.

Option 2, Bashing first: Bashing replaces the base damage for the shield, moving a light shield up from 1d3 to 1d6 or a heavy shield from 1d4 to 1d8. So CWM would have no effect until level 8 for a light shield or level 12 for a heavy shield. (Or a 13000gp monks robes would subtract 5 levels off when the unarmed damage would become better than the shield damage)

How would you rule on adding the Impact enchantment to an AoMF for a brawler/monk? Would you go the same way...it modifies the basic unarmed damage first, then the brawler/monk's unarmed damage overwrites it?

[Nefreet]

You can't add Impact to an Amulet of Mighty Fists, but let's assume you can.

A medium human's Unarmed Strike deals 1d3 damage (weapons table, CRB).

With a theoretical Impact Amulet of Mighty Fists, that damage is increased to 1d4.

Take a level of Monk or Brawler, and you now can choose between that augmented 1d4, or 1d6.

You keep asking about an order of operations. I'm telling you there is none. It's either or.

[Nefreet]

What you're going to want instead, and this is what many Brawlers and Monks do, is to find ways of increasing your physical size, since virtual size increases don't work.

So, Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, and the like.

[Slyme]

By that logic I could see someone making an argument that monks and brawlers cannot benefit from basic enhancement bonuses from AoMF to damage, only to hit.

[My Life Is In Ruins]

as the issue is caused by an interaction of feats, for PFS it's probably best to see if there is a Clarification Request or hit the FAQ button.

As with Metamagic feats the user gets the worse option.

[Slyme]

I posted a clarification request a few days ago. It is currently about halfway down page 10.

[Cantriped]

I second Nefreet's argument. There is no "order of operations" to consider here, and the rules interaction here is fairly clear to me.

Bashing doesn't interact with a Brawler's Close Weapon Mastery. The former modifies the weapon's base damage by a number of virtual size categories, while the latter completely replaces the weapon's base damage with a base damage determined by the Brawler's actual size and class level (ergo why Enlarge Person is such a good idea).

The only effect that placing the Bashing Enchantment has on a Brawler's Shield is on the level the Brawler must be before Close Weapon Mastery's base damage outstrips the shield's modified base damage. It's a waste of gold, particularly if you are considering this for a PFS character.