Advice wanted for further optimization of halfling dungeon buster.


Advice


Harrigan H. Hood & Peach - Dungeon Busting Duo. (Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior w/ Mauler familiar mount)

16/12/14/10/12/9
Fighter 1 - Mounted Combat
Fighter 2 -
Fighter 3 - Ride-By Attack
Fighter 4 - Power Attack
Fighter 5 - Spirited Charge
Damage snippet w/ Mutagen and BOGS +2 - 3d6 + 30 = 33-48 DPR, avg 40.
Fighter 6 - Risky Striker -
Fighter 7 - Steadfast Slayer
Fighter 8 - Wheeling Charge
Damage snippet w/ Mutagen, BOGS +4, +2 STR from leveling, +2 lance, Reduce Person, Long Arm to quality for SS vs. Medium target = 3d4 + 87 = 90-99 DPR

He's taking a bat as his Mauler familiar so he has a flying, medium sized mount with Blindsense. Saves are mediocre but the halfling racial boost and 12 Wis help.

The damage I can do on a charge, for the level, seems phenomenal (not much experience with high level play so correct me if it's nothing special.) and a flying, medium sized mount with wheeling charge should make setting up charges easy.

My biggest concern is that by the time the build truly comes online, I'm at the level where casters reign supreme.

Any advice on increasing survivability of the build? Suggestions to make it shine sooner? General thoughts?


Mounted Flying Archer. Maybe after gaining your Eldritch Guardian Familiar, you can start taking levels in Alchemist with the Grenadier Archetype: Exploding Arrows are cool. And Exploding Arrows don't scale down with size, and you can do things like take Dispelling Arrows and spam an evil Wizard with Dispelling Bombs.


Certainly a cool idea, but I was looking for ways to better optimize my idea, rather than a complete shift on the focus of the build.


Given the amount of damage charging does both Risky Striker and Steadfast Slayer look like they will produce a lot of overkill. I would drop them for something which improves your survivability.

I would also consider how much fun the rest of the table is likely to have if you one shot everything and if that makes for a particularly interesting or enjoyable game.


I can't recreate your damage numbers (mine are even higher), but regardless your damage is more than high enough. You can freely drop Risky Striker and Steadfast Slayer as andreww suggests.

Steadfast Slayer requires you to be the only character threatening your opponent anyway, which won't be the case with a medium sized bat mount.

You'll want to improve your utility and defenses. Right now I'm seeing a save profile of +9/+5/+5(+1 vs. fear/mind affecting), assuming a +2 cloak, so you could go for Iron Will. Advanced Weapon and Armor Trainings for additional skills would also be fairly appealing.


Dip into Monk, Master of Many Styles. Take Panther Style Feats, and take Ascetic Style. Take Broken Wing Gambit. Remember your Eldritch Guardian Familiar will have all the Combat Feats you have, and all those Feats are Combat Feats: the 2 of you are going to have lots of attacks/round as you skirmish around the battlefield. Panther Claw will make it so every time you provoke an Attack of Opportunity by moving out a Threatened Square, you get a Free-Action Unarmed Strike. Ascetic Style will make it so it doesn't have to be an Unarmed Strike: it can be some other weapon like your Familiar's Bite Attack. Panther Parry will make your Attack come first. Broken Wing Gambit will make it so when either you or your Familiar is attacked, both of you get Attacks of Opportunity.

Ooh, Circling Offense Teamwork Feat is awesome!

Ooh, Feint Partner and Improved Feint Partner!

If you dip into some class with Sneak Attack Damage, that could be awesome: Sneak Attack Damage doesn't scale down with size, either. You're flying around, willing to draw AoOs, maybe you can achieve Flanking. Maybe take one of those Pack Flanking Teamwork Feats that let you achieve Flanking just because you both have the feat and never mind positioning. I was just looking: the Feat that I was thinking of is Pack Flanking, but I think that only works on Animal Companions, and you have a Familiar--maybe your GM would allow it. But there is Overwhelm. That would work to achieve Flanking if your opponent is Size Huge of bigger. Also there is the Pack Attack Feat and others like it that let you take 5' Steps. Also, you might dip 1 level in Arcanist and take the Arcane Exploit Dimensional slide, which lets you make a 10' Teleport as part of your Move. That usually works to achieve Flanking.


andreww wrote:

Given the amount of damage charging does both Risky Striker and Steadfast Slayer look like they will produce a lot of overkill. I would drop them for something which improves your survivability.

I would also consider how much fun the rest of the table is likely to have if you one shot everything and if that makes for a particularly interesting or enjoyable game.

I usually find that 1 person's overkill is my just-about-the-right-amount-of-kill!

Still, one shouldn't neglect Survivability: no one likes a Glass Cannon.


Steadfast Slayer works because of Long Arm. The build is built this way because I want to be able to oneshot any CR appropriate threat, bosses included, regardless of DR. I want to use this in scenarios like The Ironbound Schism where high HP martial enemies abound.

At this level range casters are shutting down encounters by round two so I don't at all mind stealing the glory when it comes to splattering evil things that don't have displacement, mirror image or any one of a dozen things that make this build obsolete.

Cellion, out of curiosity what numbers were you tracking?

Edit: made a mistake, it was all head math. So...

24 STR ×1.5 = 10
PA = 9
RD = 6
SS = 4
+2 Lance = +2

3d4 + 93 = 96-105 damage


Harrigan, it doesn't sound like you want to or would enjoy playing a non-spellcaster in PF. That said you might consider a dip in sohei monk on the above build to get a couple of mounted feats early and for better saves of course.


I don't say this to be antagonistic but...

With as much damage as your character will do, if I was your GM I would have most intelligent opponents attempt to kill your mount (after see your mounted charge style), as you are virtually worthless without it. Keep this sort of thing in mind because it is a huge vulnerability in your build.

Liberty's Edge

Please be carefull of the load-bearing capacity of the Dire Bat. If he's encumbered then his Fly speed is reduced. Once for medium load, and again for heavy. I don't know what changes when a typical dire Bat goes to an Eldritch Familiar, but standard Dire Bat Animal Companion has a 9 Str, so it's flight capacity is:

Light Load - 30 lbs. or less
Medium Load - 31–60 lbs.
Heavy Load - 61–90 lbs.

A typical male Halfling is 30+2d4 lbs, a typical female is only 5 pounds less. My Halfling Cavalier is mounted on a Wolf with a 13 Str (-> 14 for carrying capacity because of four legs). That's 58 lbs or less for light load, and I'm having a terrible time keeping under that with armor, lance, saddle, etc. Even at small/half weight.

I strongly advise you to get Wheeling Charge as soon as possible, rather than wait for 8th level. It allows you to charge through party members and take one turn of up to 90 degrees. this is very important in enabling you to get in a charge at all.


@avr, I'm actually incredibly fond of your suggestion. Trade one level of BAB for boosts to two saves, bonus feats and the ability to always act in the surprise round. Jooocy.

@Claxon, it's a valid point. Any tips for mount survivability?

@Odo, Mauler familiars get a massive STR boost and I'll spend most of my time as a half size halfling (Reduce Person) to qualify for more damage.

New draft through level 5:
Sohei 1: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack
Fighter 1:
Fighter 2: Power Attack
Fighter 3:
Fighter 4: Spirited Charge, Wheeling Charge

Damage with +2 BOGS, +1 lance and Mutagen would be

Str 22 = +6, 2h +9
Power attack +4, 2h +6
Lance +1

x3 = 3d6 + 48 = 51-66 damage. At level 5. On a flying mount.

Liberty's Edge

I don't want to sound like a buzz-kill, but if I can find problems in the build you are spec'ing, then your GM is likely to find them also.

Seriously, I've just looked at the Mauler Familiar, and the Str boosts aren't significant for a long time. +1 at 3, 5, 7...

Also, you seem to have two problems with size:
1) At level 5 your dire bat has an Str of 11. If you grow him (3/day) it goes to 13, which is getting into swing zone so far as carrying capacity is concerned (50 lbs or less/light load). But then it's not Medium, 'cause a Dire Bat starts at Medium; now it's Large. With all the problems Large mounts have indoors.
2) Reduce Person makes you and all your equipment 1/2 size, and weight for you and your gear 1/8. Good for carrying capacity, but... it reduces the Small Halfling to Tiny. The lance now does 1d3 instead of 1d6, and it's Reach is 5' instead of 10'. Also, your Str goes down by 2, to 20. Now your Str damage is 5 x 1.5 (2HW) -> 7. Fortunately Power Attack remains unchanged. Your last line about damage

x3 = 3d6 + 48 = 51-66 damage

becomes

x3 = 3d3 + 42 = 45-51 damage

Note: You can get Muleback Cords to significantly increase the carrying capacity of the Bat (Bat familiars can take shoulder slot items?). Str +8, for 1,000 gp. Str 9+8 = 17 with a light load of 86 lbs or less. Problem solved.


1) not a dire bat, a bat. As a mauler in battle form it's medium sized.

2) I'm absolutely, perfectly aware of everything you pointed out here and have already covered the build's fixes in prior posts if you scroll up.


The sohei's bonus feats are from the monk class feature, meaning they ignore prerequisites. Which means you could take spirited charge or mounted skirmisher early with them and not doing so is something of a waste.

Also, while you might want to take it later, a second level of sohei monk doesn't lose any more BAB, advances all saves and includes another bonus feat. It would even be possible to take 4 levels (boon companion will cover that) for the boosts they can give to their mount.

Silver Crusade

How are you planning to get Long Arm? It's a personal spell, therefore no potions.


HarriganHood wrote:

Harrigan H. Hood & Peach - Dungeon Busting Duo. (Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior w/ Mauler familiar mount)

16/12/14/10/12/9
Fighter 1 - Mounted Combat

Tons of problems right out of the gate:

* Eldritch Guardian gives up Ride as a class skill (which means your Mounted Combat check is going to suck, especially when based off 12 dex)
* Jacking strength, ignoring dex, and dumping charisma in a halfling = instant gimp
* straight fighter gives up 2 skills/level and a ton of damage versus cavalier
* a mauler familiar needs a standard-action to get big, and then you need an action to mount-up. (The familiar archetype also doesn't list a duration, it's from a 2017 book, and I suspect that errata may show up to nerf the concept.)

~ ~ ~
halfling, 20pt 15,14,12,12,12,12, array)
str 10
dex 17
con 14
int 12
wis 12
cha 14

traits: Dangerously Curious, Magical Knack (Hunter)

1. hunter1 [Primal Companion], Boon Companion
2. cavalier [Daring Champion:Champion's Finesse][Tactician: Teamwork FEAT]
3. fighter1 [dragoon(Mounted Combat, Skill Focus:Ride), FEAT(g)
4. monk1 [Sohei][Mounted Skirmisher][flurry]
5. monk2 [evasion][Indomitable Mount], FEAT(g)
6. hunter2 [Outflank(shared)]
7. hunter3 [Hunter's Tactics][Teamwork FEAT], FEAT(g)

Level play-by-play:
1. companion with two Evolutions, spells, Perception as class, 7 skill points
2. Weapon Finesse, Cha=Int, a teamwork feat, no armor penalties to Ride, 5 skills
3. mount becomes neigh unhittable once/round, three feats overall.
4. +2 all saves; pseudo-pounce; flurry better than TWF because only one weapon needed
5. +1 all saves and evasion, mount essentially impervious now
6. rest of the build is Hunter with a full-level animal companion

* I would keep a medium-sized companion so it'll fit more places.

* Damage is modest until Agile weaponry; this is a deliberate choice to front-load feats, so you may wish to take a particularly vicious animal early on, then switch to a flier or whatever later.

Feats recommendations:
- Paired Opportunists (take at 2nd)
- Risky Striker or Piranha Strike (take at 3rd)
- Combat Reflexes (take at 5th), otherwise feat not taken at 3rd*
- Pack Flanking + Combat Expertise (take at 7th)

*...if your GM permits Fortuitous (see below) to not need Combat Reflexes.

Equipment by mid-level:
- Fortuitous weapon (any finessable light melee)
- Fortuitous tusk-blades for animal companion with gore attack


Slim Jim wrote:
HarriganHood wrote:

Harrigan H. Hood & Peach - Dungeon Busting Duo. (Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior w/ Mauler familiar mount)

16/12/14/10/12/9
Fighter 1 - Mounted Combat

Tons of problems right out of the gate:

* Eldritch Guardian gives up Ride as a class skill (which means your Mounted Combat check is going to suck, especially when based off 12 dex)
* Jacking strength, ignoring dex, and dumping charisma in a halfling = instant gimp
* straight fighter gives up 2 skills/level and a ton of damage versus cavalier
* a mauler familiar needs a standard-action to get big, and then you need an action to mount-up. (The familiar archetype also doesn't list a duration, it's from a 2017 book, and I suspect that errata may show up to nerf the concept.)

~ ~ ~
halfling, 20pt 15,14,12,12,12,12, array)
str 10
dex 17
con 14
int 12
wis 12
cha 14

traits: Dangerously Curious, Magical Knack (Hunter)

1. hunter1 [Primal Companion], Boon Companion
2. cavalier [Daring Champion:Champion's Finesse][Tactician: Teamwork FEAT]
3. fighter1 [dragoon(Mounted Combat, Skill Focus:Ride), FEAT(g)
4. monk1 [Sohei][Mounted Skirmisher][flurry]
5. monk2 [evasion][Indomitable Mount], FEAT(g)
6. hunter2 [Outflank(shared)]
7. hunter3 [Hunter's Tactics][Teamwork FEAT], FEAT(g)

Level play-by-play:
1. companion with two Evolutions, spells, Perception as class, 7 skill points
2. Weapon Finesse, Cha=Int, a teamwork feat, no armor penalties to Ride, 5 skills
3. mount becomes neigh unhittable once/round, three feats overall.
4. +2 all saves; pseudo-pounce; flurry better than TWF because only one weapon needed
5. +1 all saves and evasion, mount essentially impervious now
6. rest of the build is Hunter with a full-level animal companion

* I would keep a medium-sized companion so it'll fit more places.

* Damage is modest until Agile weaponry; this is a deliberate choice to front-load feats, so you may wish to take a particularly vicious animal early on, then switch to a flier or whatever
...

- Plenty of traits to make Ride a class skill + halfling racial bonuses.

- Not when it serves the purpose of the build. You'd do the same with the cavalier you suggest instead.
- I challenge you to build a cavalier that meets this sustained damage at mid to high levels. And even if you do I have a flying mount.
- No specified duration means RAW I'll just have it going around in mauler form and I'll be on it.

That aside, I do like the build you posted.

Liberty's Edge

HarriganHood wrote:

1) not a dire bat, a bat. As a mauler in battle form it's medium sized.

2) I'm absolutely, perfectly aware of everything you pointed out here and have already covered the build's fixes in prior posts if you scroll up.

I have looked over your previous posts, and realize that I only credited your Mutagen Warrior for +2 Str instead of +4. My bad.

Starting with a normal Bat (diminuative/Str 1) seemed so impossibly low, I mentally zipped over to Dire Bat. Also my bad. Note:The normal bat, when grown to Mauler/Medium size would (at 5th level) have an STR of 7. Which would easily cover your weight at 1/8 normal; for the 1 minute/level during which Reduce Person is in effect. In short, your mauler can remain Medium all day, but can barely move when you are normal size & weight. Barely, as in stagger 5'. An average male Halfling with halfling size breastplate, lance, exotic riding saddle, bit & bridle is already past the heavy load zone for Str 7 (47-70 lbs). (Saddlebags or backpack, spare weapons, actual clothes, food & water, rope, cooking gear, etc haven't been added in yet.)

Nowhere in your previous posts can I find how you get a Tiny Lance (d3) to do Small Lance damage (d6). Please elucidate.


While outside of combat movement speed is generally irrelevant. Reduce Person would be popped in the surprise/first round, generally while the mount positions itself to splatter something.

I specified damage with a tiny lance (end goal) in one of my initial posts, along with the fixes for the reach issue (one of which is apparently now invalid, would simply have to grab Lunge earlier.) I was tracking tiny lance damage as 1d4.

If the carrying capacity became an issue once numbers were crunched I could simply switch to another mount, like a flying fox (base strength 9 before any Mauler business comes into play) Muleback cords specify they only work as far as the individuals equipment carrying capacity so RAW and probably RAI they wouldn't work.


Quote:
Plenty of traits to make Ride a class skill + halfling racial bonuses.

Even with them, you're -6 behind the dex + dragoon build.

Ride pulls a lot of duty in the concept: your effectiveness depends upon being in the saddle, which means the mount will be a target, and both Mounted Combat and Indomitable Mount key off Ride.

You need only two levels of cavalier and 16,000gp (for Champion's Banner and Vambraces of the Tactician) to have two Challenges per day both doing +8 level bonus damage (which means +16 damage on a crit with a high-threat-range weapon as opposed to a lance). Save 'em for the roughest critters.

There's nothing wrong with Spirited Charge...aside from it needing a charge to work. I tucked Sohei in there to show how it'd pick up Mounted Skirmisher sans prerequisites as well as flurry, so instead of needing charge, you just run the mount up and then full-attack with a flurry.

Mutagens are nice, but you have to make to the things, and they take a standard-action to swig and don't work with Accelerated Drinker or Drunken Brute if you're a routine potion-drinker. (Dipping barbarian and throwing one feat at Extra Rage grants more bang for the buck in my experience; raging is a free action.)

Quote:
I challenge you to build a cavalier that meets this sustained damage at mid to high levels. And even if you do I have a flying mount.

Your build (aside from Steadfast Slayer) was 100% focused on mounted charging. Afoot, you don't do much beyond the standard Power Attack and Weapon Training. Mounted Combat is treated like a tax-feat rather than an internal component of defense keeping your very necessary animal companion alive.

With a dex of 12, you're likely in heavy armor, severely taxing the encumbrance of your medium-sized flying familiar.

...a bat familiar starts as a diminutive creature with a str of 1, and is literally the wimpiest thing on the lists. It picks up a fantastic +9 bump to str when factoring dimi>tiny>small, then adding the +2 for Mauler's Battle Form size-bonus and the +1 bump at 3rd, but it still remains at a depressing 10 strength with a light encumbrance limit of 33 lbs. Also, its starting dexterity drops by 4, and it can't fly at all in medium or heavy barding. Basically, you'll be a starving, anorexic halfling who has to throw everything overboard in a desperate attempt to keep this poor, wheezing bat aloft. As a straight fighter, there's no Ant Haul for you.

The bat's only saving grace is that its Fly skill starts high enough that it can still take-10 to hover after seeing its dexterity get sacked from all the size increasing.

You'll throw money at these problems, of course, but eventually come to realize you'd be better off with an animal companion or a flying carpet.


I'll address the rest later but right now as I'm crunched for time I just have one question, about your build. How does the build hold up longterm since you arent taking enough monk levels for more than two attacks on flurry? What are some vague DPR estimates?


Odo Hillborne wrote:
HarriganHood wrote:

1) not a dire bat, a bat. As a mauler in battle form it's medium sized.

2) I'm absolutely, perfectly aware of everything you pointed out here and have already covered the build's fixes in prior posts if you scroll up.

I have looked over your previous posts, and realize that I only credited your Mutagen Warrior for +2 Str instead of +4. My bad.

Starting with a normal Bat (diminuative/Str 1) seemed so impossibly low, I mentally zipped over to Dire Bat. Also my bad. Note:The normal bat, when grown to Mauler/Medium size would (at 5th level) have an STR of 7. Which would easily cover your weight at 1/8 normal; for the 1 minute/level during which Reduce Person is in effect. In short, your mauler can remain Medium all day, but can barely move when you are normal size & weight. Barely, as in stagger 5'. An average male Halfling with halfling size breastplate, lance, exotic riding saddle, bit & bridle is already past the heavy load zone for Str 7 (47-70 lbs). (Saddlebags or backpack, spare weapons, actual clothes, food & water, rope, cooking gear, etc haven't been added in yet.)

Nowhere in your previous posts can I find how you get a Tiny Lance (d3) to do Small Lance damage (d6). Please elucidate.

Diminutive to Medium is +10 str, you repeat the increase at each stage, also at level 8 the mauler familiar gets another +3 str. So its actually a 14 str bat.

Silver Crusade

Ryan Freire wrote:
Diminutive to Medium is +10 str, you repeat the increase at each stage, also at level 8 the mauler familiar gets another +3 str. So its actually a 14 str bat.

Diminutive to Small is +6 Str, -4 Dex. Small to Medium bears no changes-(Mark Seifter saying that it's a Polymorph effect). +2 from Battle Form, +1 every 2 levels after 3rd. This means that a 8th level Mauler Bat familiar will have Str = 1+6+2+3 = 12.

Also, you pasted the wrong link.

The OP's best bet is going Giant Fox though. Small rider on Mauler Familiar is perfectly doable: I've played an Wayang Alchemist with Mauler (Tumor) Hawk Familiar in PFS, with hard rules on carry weight, and it was extremely fun. Still, however, I don't understand how he's going to get Longarm.


Alternatively, skip the mount stuff entirely, save money up for the 5x5 carpet, and get the Fly skill with a trait. This lets you concentrate your feats on your character rather than splitting half to augment a sidekick.

Downside: not as much fun from about 4th level (when a riding dogs really start suffering) to 7th or so (when you can afford the magic item).

To ease the transition, take Mounted Combat, then retrain it when no longer needed.

Liberty's Edge

I looked in the Pathfinder Animal Companion, and flying creatures cannot take magic items on the shoulders (that's where the wings are). So my suggestion of Muleback Cords is actually illegal.

Assuming that you always have a Surprise Round before you go into combat is highly unrealistic. (Unless you know your judge sets things up this way in advance?)

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