Enhanced Tank (Ex) question


Rules Questions


Page 113 of the Starfinder CRB. Enhanced Tank (Ex).

Second part of the ability grants a bonus slot to armor and stats that this bonus upgrade slot can be used to instal Powered Armor only upgrades into a suit of Heavy Armor. It also says this upgrade is purchased at half price.

That said, there are only two Powered Armor only upgrades in the CRB (automated loader and the titan shield), both of which are seemingly incompatiple with upgrade option on Heavy Armor.

The Automated Loader can only be used to reload weapons built into the armor, which as far as I know, is a power armor only thing. So even if I install it on heavy armor, I don't think it can be used.

The Titan shield should work, except it requires 2 slots. Given that this ability only grants one slot and only seems to apply to upgrades placed in that one slot, doesn't seem like this is compatible either.

How is the bonus upgrade slot via Enhanced Tank (ex) supposed to function with regard to installing powered armor only upgrades into heavy armor?


It seems like you wouldn't be able to use either of the available power-armor upgrades. In the future, we'll probably get more armor upgrades that will work with the ability, but it is definitely weird that there's an option in the CRB that won't actually work until another book is published.


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It does not state that you gain an additional slot. It refers to a bonus slot only in the final sentence, where it mysteriously assumes you know what it is talking about.

Relevant rules text sentences:

Enhanced Tank wrote:
You can add one more upgrade to your armor than its normal maximum number of upgrade slots.

This means you can install one more upgrade, regardless of how many slots it takes - the Titan shield is perfectly valid, despite taking up two slots, as it is 1 upgrade.

Enhanced Tank wrote:
If you add this bonus upgrade to heavy armor, you can select an upgrade normally limited to powered armor.

The Titan shield can be installed in heavy armor.

Enhanced Tank wrote:
An upgrade placed in this bonus slot costs half the normal credit amount.

This is meaningless. Enhanced Tank does not, anywhere in its rules text, claim it grants you a bonus slot, so the word "this" in that sentence is grammatically unsound - there is no bonus slot for it to refer to. You have to house rule it. The two obvious house rules I see are:


  • Enhanced Tank does not grant a bonus slot, so the final sentence has no validity. The additional upgrade you use it to install on armor costs the normal amount.
  • Enhanced Tank's final sentence is intended to apply to upgrades, not upgrade slots, and the additional upgrade you use it to install on armor costs half the normal amount.

I don't think it makes sense to rule as this thread implies, which is that Enhanced Tank provides you with a bonus slot, not a bonus upgrade - there are only three sentences that discuss a bonus, and 2 out of the 3 say upgrade, not slot, so changing upgrade to slot requires more changes than either of the above.


Well I think their refering to upgrade slots....so I think refering to them as upgrades or slots should equally meaningful. But maybe I'm reading into too much?


Quindraco it says you can add 1 more upgrade than you have slots for...that would mean it gives you a bonus slot you’re the only one misreading this one


Robert Gooding wrote:
Quindraco it says you can add 1 more upgrade than you have slots for...that would mean it gives you a bonus slot you’re the only one misreading this one

Quindraco's interpretation is the only one that is consistent with the text. It seems incredibly specific when there are more references to it being "one more upgrade" or "this bonus upgrade" than calling it "this bonus slot."

There's the distinct possibility that there was a change in terminology midway through development and that this got missed in proofing, but it definitely reads two different ways and the dominant way is "an upgrade" rather than "an upgrade slot." Unless errata'd otherwise, that's my interpretation.


Thanks.


Serisan wrote:
Robert Gooding wrote:
Quindraco it says you can add 1 more upgrade than you have slots for...that would mean it gives you a bonus slot you’re the only one misreading this one

Quindraco's interpretation is the only one that is consistent with the text. It seems incredibly specific when there are more references to it being "one more upgrade" or "this bonus upgrade" than calling it "this bonus slot."

There's the distinct possibility that there was a change in terminology midway through development and that this got missed in proofing, but it definitely reads two different ways and the dominant way is "an upgrade" rather than "an upgrade slot." Unless errata'd otherwise, that's my interpretation.

Let’s break this down

You can add one more upgrade to your armor than its normal maximum number of upgrade slots.
So if your armor has 1 slot you get to add another upgrade on top of that means you have 2 slots

If you add this bonus upgrade to heavy armor, you can select an upgrade normally limited to powered armor.
Not relevant to the discussion

An upgrade placed in this bonus slot costs half the normal credit amount.
Unequivocally saying that it is a bonus slot


Robert Gooding wrote:
Serisan wrote:
Robert Gooding wrote:
Quindraco it says you can add 1 more upgrade than you have slots for...that would mean it gives you a bonus slot you’re the only one misreading this one

Quindraco's interpretation is the only one that is consistent with the text. It seems incredibly specific when there are more references to it being "one more upgrade" or "this bonus upgrade" than calling it "this bonus slot."

There's the distinct possibility that there was a change in terminology midway through development and that this got missed in proofing, but it definitely reads two different ways and the dominant way is "an upgrade" rather than "an upgrade slot." Unless errata'd otherwise, that's my interpretation.

Let’s break this down

You can add one more upgrade to your armor than its normal maximum number of upgrade slots.
So if your armor has 1 slot you get to add another upgrade on top of that means you have 2 slots

Does not follow. "One additional upgrade" =/= "one additional upgrade slot." As adequately noted, there are upgrades that take multiple slots and that's exactly the contention here.

Quote:

If you add this bonus upgrade to heavy armor, you can select an upgrade normally limited to powered armor.

Not relevant to the discussion

Parallel language matters.

Quote:

An upgrade placed in this bonus slot costs half the normal credit amount.

Unequivocally saying that it is a bonus slot

1 out of 3 says it's a slot. 2 out of 3 do not.


Its not parallel language to what you’re saying it’s referring to the bonus upgrade that you’re putting in the bonus slot, you can’t just ram the word slot into that sentence so it’s not missing it’s called context

And if you’re going to play that then it refers to slots in 2/3 so we’re back where we started


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Robert Gooding wrote:

Its not parallel language to what you’re saying it’s referring to the bonus upgrade that you’re putting in the bonus slot, you can’t just ram the word slot into that sentence so it’s not missing it’s called context

And if you’re going to play that then it refers to slots in 2/3 so we’re back where we started

I have added nothing or subtracted nothing. I read the text. You're the one jamming assumptions into the text. Perhaps it was intended to say slot, but that is not what it says in the majority of sentences.

Additionally, the first mention of slots is not in regards to the bonus upgrade, but rather the base armor slot count. Those are different things.


This sounds like a power gamer trying to get whatever he can, you’re not actually going to listen...but last attempt

There are no assumptions, there is context, I agree it starts out ambiguous but they then clarify at the end and say in no uncertain terms that it’s a bonus slot. If they hadn’t clarified at the end you’d have ground to stand on and it would be a legitimate discussion about wether they intended you to be able to put in a 2 slot upgrade for free.

But they did clarify and you don’t get to just ignore that unless you go into house rule territory


Robert Gooding wrote:

This sounds like a power gamer trying to get whatever he can, you’re not actually going to listen...but last attempt

There are no assumptions, there is context, I agree it starts out ambiguous but they then clarify at the end and say in no uncertain terms that it’s a bonus slot. If they hadn’t clarified at the end you’d have ground to stand on and it would be a legitimate discussion about wether they intended you to be able to put in a 2 slot upgrade for free.

But they did clarify and you don’t get to just ignore that unless you go into house rule territory

Ad hominem attacks do not make your argument stronger.

I can suspect that this is an editing issue (context, as you call it). There certainly were things in the CRB that were rushed, mathed out wrong, etc., and it's certainly possible that there were no 2-slot upgrades when the ability was initially designed (only forcefield upgrades take 2 slots in the CRB), such that this distinction potentially wouldn't have mattered. That said, supposing things like this is bordering on houserule territory.

An ability does what it says, no more, no less. I do not agree with your interpretation at this time. Just like how Explosive Blast, unlike its predecessor Fireball, doesn't set rooms on fire short of GM fiat, I suspect we'll see GM disagreements on this.


Serisan,

Enhanced Tank wrote:

...

An upgrade placed in this bonus slot costs half the normal credit amount.

Any upgrades in this bonus slot cost half the normal credit amount. Slot, singular. Therefore any upgrades that require 2 slots cost the normal amount since they are not placed in the bonus slot only.


Ridiculon wrote:

Serisan,

Enhanced Tank wrote:

...

An upgrade placed in this bonus slot costs half the normal credit amount.
Any upgrades in this bonus slot cost half the normal credit amount. Slot, singular. Therefore any upgrades that require 2 slots cost the normal amount since they are not placed in the bonus slot only.

How do you reconcile the other 2/3rds of the ability that do not refer to it as an upgrade slot, including the primary line that indicates it's a bonus upgrade? Is 1/3rd of the text more important than the other 2/3rds?


Serisan wrote:
Ridiculon wrote:

Serisan,

Enhanced Tank wrote:

...

An upgrade placed in this bonus slot costs half the normal credit amount.
Any upgrades in this bonus slot cost half the normal credit amount. Slot, singular. Therefore any upgrades that require 2 slots cost the normal amount since they are not placed in the bonus slot only.
How do you reconcile the other 2/3rds of the ability that do not refer to it as an upgrade slot, including the primary line that indicates it's a bonus upgrade? Is 1/3rd of the text more important than the other 2/3rds?
Quote:
You can add one more upgrade to your armor than its normal maximum number of upgrade slots.

This sentence is logically inconsistent with itself much less the greater armor upgrade system. It doesn't have any meaning at all, it can be discounted. Let me try to illustrate this:

"You can add one more upgrade to your armor..."

All good so far, this makes sense.

"...than its normal maximum number of upgrade slots."

Now it doesn't, all meaning is lost at this point because upgrade slots do not equate to upgrades and you can already add more upgrades to your armor than it has slots for, it just makes the armor and all the upgrades attached to it useless, thus you don't need another rule telling you that you can do this.

Pg. 205 Upgrade Slots wrote:
Each suit of armor contains a certain number of upgrade slots. This represents the maximum number of times the armor can be modified while still functioning. If you install upgrades beyond the maximum, the armor and all upgrades attached to it cease to function until you remove enough upgrades to bring the armor down to its maximum number of upgrade slots or fewer.

Conclusion: the first sentence is a perfectly valid english construction but a logically invalid statement, it can't be used to interpret the rest of the rule because it literally has no meaning.

Quote:
If you add this bonus upgrade to heavy armor, you can select an upgrade normally limited to powered armor.

We still don't have any bonus upgrade therefore we can't select one normally limited to powered armor. This is also a logically invalid statement because its taking as a given a thing that doesn't and can't exist.

Quote:
An upgrade placed in this bonus slot costs half the normal credit amount.

This is the only sentence that you can take as a whole of the three, it is internally consistent all the way through and also consistent with the upgrade system since it refers to both slots and upgrades as two separate things. Furthermore, it explicitly gives us a bonus upgrade slot that we can use to put upgrades in.

If you want to rescue the second half of the second sentence and apply it to the third that's fine, but honestly it would be a house rule.

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