Greetings esteemed developers of this beloved game.
I am asking for a FAQ request but unfortunately will not be able to provide links since I'm on my cellphone. It's easy enough to Google though and the devs do have all the books on call.
I would like people to consider the following interactions:
Orc bloodline: +1 per damage dice to damage of all spells.
Elemental/draconic bloodline: +1 per damage dice to damage of all spells of chosen element
Blood havoc: replaces level 1 power: +1 per damage dice to damage of all spells.
RAW they all stack, using crossblooded archetype you could have +3 per damage dice to spells. At level 1 you're dishing out 4d4+12 burning hands with the right build. At level 4 it's 2 scorchinc rays for 8d6+24 (more if you have a bard or arcane strike). At level 6 it's a 9d6 +27 damage fireball, and at level 8 the fun really starts with empowered fireball or scorhing ray on top. (At this point the scorching Ray's will average 117 damage without crits or Nat 1's or other buffs)
So all of this to ask:
Is it the Dev's intent that these sources of additional damage stack? Or are they considered as "from same source" and thus don't stack?
Other people feel free to comment
Yes they stack if you can get all of them. They are all different sources.
What also needs to be understood is that the devs dont think of every possible combination so there will be certain things that will work together that might be too much for the average table. It falls to the GM to reign things in.
As an example there are blasting builds that dont even use all 3 of those, and they can do over 250 points of damage to an area, not just one target. Even if saves are made that's 125 points of damage to several enemies at once. Once you get to that point adding the stuff you have above is not really going to change anything.
On top of that you have the dazing spell megamagic feat, which basically makes them lose their turn for taking damage.
In addition if they didnt work it wouldnt be because they didnt stack, it would be because the devs would say they were too powerful, which is an entirely different reason. But as I pointed out with the damage that can already be done, and how enemies can lose actions, by the time you start to add those, its a nonfactor.
I agree with you of course, but I think the rules should set limits that the gm can then use as guidelines.
+3 per damage dice is perhaps too strong, even if it is a non factor (it's obviously possible to trivialise encounters in many other ways at level 8).
While by RAW it works, I could see an argument being made for considering all bloodline powers as "from same source " and thus not allowing them to stack.
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Can we please please please not ask for more "nested sources" FAQ's? Honestly what is next, "Well a character only gets +1 to hit from Weapon focus and greater weapon focus, due to the fact that they are both feats/both possessed by one character/both target one weapon, so "Feats/the character/the weapon" is the source!"
Please, if you have a problem with something house-rule it. If you only play PFS I am sorry if someone is making the game un-fun for you, but please do not get more content nerfed or worse "Re-printed" so we get a weaker version of the same content rather than getting new and useful content.
Grr, I admit you kinda hit my berserk button as the nested sources FAQ is something I revile.
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While by RAW it works, I could see an argument being made for considering all bloodline powers as "from same source " and thus not allowing them to stack.
This is EXACTLY why I questioned Mark on nested sources, because I expected THIS kind of argument to be dragged out on a regular basis.
Mark told me that the FAQ that allowed nested sourced was VERY narrowly built to only work for stats and wasn't meant to be applied to other situations. So, I'm going to trust Mark and say that there is no need for an FAQ and they have their 'normal' sources [Orc bloodline, Elemental/draconic bloodline and Blood havoc].
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Grr, I admit you kinda hit my berserk button as the nested sources FAQ is something I revile.
I'm with you on this. It's the poster child for what I haven't liked about a LOT of FAQ's lately.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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there is no need for an FAQ and they have their 'normal' sources [Orc bloodline, Elemental/draconic bloodline and Blood havoc].
+1
But I don't even get how the nested (ability) source even factors in here? There is no other stat it is looking to fill here? It isn't like it's asking for an ability or some other stat. How do you see the nested source can in any way be connected to this question?
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All bonuses derive from the Pathfinder rules source and nothing stacks. Or matters.
I guess you could say the “damage dice” is the source and since the bonus granted is untyped, then they wouldn’t stack. I wouldn’t be surprised if the devs ruled that way, but wouldn’t expect it. Currently only ability scores have been listed as sources, but things like level or damage dice could end up being sources as well.
Titles aren't supposed to have "FAQ REQUEST" in all caps, either.
The Moderators have specifically told us that such threads will be removed from the FAQ queue.
Did not know that, what's the etiquette?
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You aren’t supposed to label a title requesting a FAQ, but a lot of FAQs that do get answered are in response to threads like that. So it’s more of a guideline than a rule.
How are you getting that many extra damage dice to a spell like Burning Hands at 1st level? The Gifted Adept trait boosts a single spell by +1 caster level, but I have no idea where you are getting the other two caster levels from.
Spell focus + spell specialisation
there is no need for an FAQ and they have their 'normal' sources [Orc bloodline, Elemental/draconic bloodline and Blood havoc].+1
But I don't even get how the nested (ability) source even factors in here? There is no other stat it is looking to fill here? It isn't like it's asking for an ability or some other stat. How do you see the nested source can in any way be connected to this question?
From the thread that spawned this one.
If you count sorc bloodline powers as "same source" it doesn't stack, maybe they had that in mind?
So it's an attempt to bring in nested (bloodline) source instead of the individual abilities, mirroring what was rules in the nested (ability) source FAQ. So, nothing about stats, all about nesting.
Currently only ability scores have been listed as sources, but things like level or damage dice could end up being sources as well.
I brought up level to Mark in the nested FAQ thread, and he said it wasn't meant to be extrapolated that way. Now I'm with you that it wouldn't surprise me if 'some one' higher up than Mark changed 'their' mind on that though.
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Did not know that, what's the etiquette?Titles aren't supposed to have "FAQ REQUEST" in all caps, either.
The Moderators have specifically told us that such threads will be removed from the FAQ queue.
There is a post that Jason Bulmahn made that says what is good or bad for a FAQ thread, and I believe it's stickied somewhere, I just don't know where.
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I would also like to point out that, while the effects stack, it is impossible to get all 3 effects at once simply that Crossblooded and Bloodline Mutations won't stack.
It also doesn't bypass immunities and such.
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It might be nice to have a faq asking what all counts as a “source” for purposes of stacking. Level? Class level? Damage dice?
I feel that general thing may actually count as frequently asked.
Honestly, the caster level boosts are the biggest culprits at low levels. Without them, the damage dealt in this case is merely 1d4+3, which isn't even remotely problematic with the save for half. On the flipside, consider that an Admixture Wizard can hit 4d4+1 damage or that an Arcanist can hit 5d4 damage. Sure, the Sorcerer's 4d6+12 (or, let's be honest, 4d6+8; crossblooded is just plain overkill these days) is the stand-out best of the lot, but all of them are in save-or-die territory at 1st level play.
At high levels, the problem is Spell Perfection. I probably don't need to go into details about that feat for anyone who has ever seen it in action. It's banned at my table, and for good reason. Free metamagic is obscenely powerful, and when you tack it onto a build that has a super-spammable spell that's been heavily optimized the whole thing just goes insane. Take this away, and the blaster sorcerer is within reason even with that juicy +3 damage per die.
Sorcerers make the problem obvious with their ability to stack large damage boosts, but Wizards and Arcanists can go nuts in much the same way using the caster level boosts at low levels and spell perfection at high levels. Take away these feats and the Sorcerer remains strong as a blaster, but not overpowering.
I would also like to point out that, while the effects stack, it is impossible to get all 3 effects at once simply that Crossblooded and Bloodline Mutations won't stack.
Bloodline mutations aren't archetypes, and are not bound by the rules of archetypes. There is no rule against taking them instead of class features modified by an archetype.
Honestly, the caster level boosts are the biggest culprits at low levels. Without them, the damage dealt in this case is merely 1d4+3, which isn't even remotely problematic with the save for half. On the flipside, consider that an Admixture Wizard can hit 4d4+1 damage or that an Arcanist can hit 5d4 damage. Sure, the Sorcerer's 4d6+12 (or, let's be honest, 4d6+8; crossblooded is just plain overkill these days) is the stand-out best of the lot, but all of them are in save-or-die territory at 1st level play.
At high levels, the problem is Spell Perfection. I probably don't need to go into details about that feat for anyone who has ever seen it in action. It's banned at my table, and for good reason. Free metamagic is obscenely powerful, and when you tack it onto a build that has a super-spammable spell that's been heavily optimized the whole thing just goes insane. Take this away, and the blaster sorcerer is within reason even with that juicy +3 damage per die.
Sorcerers make the problem obvious with their ability to stack large damage boosts, but Wizards and Arcanists can go nuts in much the same way using the caster level boosts at low levels and spell perfection at high levels. Take away these feats and the Sorcerer remains strong as a blaster, but not overpowering.
I would also like to point out that, while the effects stack, it is impossible to get all 3 effects at once simply that Crossblooded and Bloodline Mutations won't stack.Bloodline mutations aren't archetypes, and are not bound by the rules of archetypes. There is no rule against taking them instead of class features modified by an archetype.
Although heirs to similar arcane bloodlines may share commonalities, the unique circumstances in which a bloodline enters a bloodrager or sorcerer’s lineage can result in the manifestation of particularly strange or unusual bloodline powers known as mutations. Whenever a bloodrager or a sorcerer gains a new bloodline power, she can swap her bloodline power for a bloodline mutation whose prerequisites she meets. Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed, and a bloodrager or sorcerer cannot swap a bloodline power that she has altered or replaced with an archetype for a bloodline mutation. A bloodrager need not be in a bloodrage to use her bloodline mutation powers. Alternatively, a bloodrager or sorcerer can select a bloodline mutation in place of a bloodline bonus feat, provided her class level is at least equal to the level of the bloodline ability the mutation normally replaces.
Bolded the relevent
EDIT: Though i will note that you could still grab them through bonus feats and have Italicized that section.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I would also like to point out that, while the effects stack, it is impossible to get all 3 effects at once simply that Crossblooded and Bloodline Mutations won't stack.
It also doesn't bypass immunities and such.
Yea I thought you couldn’t do Mutations with Crossblooded.
Also PFS doesn’t allow mutations at all.
Well at least that's balanced, but in another way.
And yeah I just unlocked spell perfection on my theurge, put it on battering blast it's just like... I feel bad for having it, I don't even use my level 8 druid spells anymore I just go dazing persistent battering blast + quickened battering blast every round...
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I would also like to point out that, while the effects stack, it is impossible to get all 3 effects at once simply that Crossblooded and Bloodline Mutations won't stack.
It also doesn't bypass immunities and such.
Yea I thought you couldn’t do Mutations with Crossblooded.
Also PFS doesn’t allow mutations at all.
PFS allows mutations.İt only bans the first one and yeah you cant take those mutations with crossblooded.I am not talking about the first one though.To make it VERY clear if you take crossblooded you cant take any of those Mutations.
EDİT:Forgot about the feat part.
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Well at least that's balanced, but in another way.
And yeah I just unlocked spell perfection on my theurge, put it on battering blast it's just like... I feel bad for having it, I don't even use my level 8 druid spells anymore I just go dazing persistent battering blast + quickened battering blast every round...
İt is the best single target spell in the game.
RAW they all stack, using crossblooded archetype you could have +3 per damage dice to spells. At level 1 you're dishing out 4d4+12 burning hands with the right build. At level 4 it's 2 scorchinc rays for 8d6+24 (more if you have a bard or arcane strike). At level 6 it's a 9d6 +27 damage fireball, and at level 8 the fun really starts with empowered fireball or scorhing ray on top. (At this point the scorching Ray's will average 117 damage without crits or Nat 1's or other buffs)
4d4+12 or ~26 at lv1 save for half ~13 like 5 times a day so? An 18 str raging barb with power attack is +7 for 2d6+12 ~19 and there are builds to get +9 for 2d6+15 ~22 damage at lv1 for at least 6 rounds a day. All will kill any lv1 they see and probably most lv2s as well.
I agree with you of course, but I think the rules should set limits that the gm can then use as guidelines.
+3 per damage dice is perhaps too strong, even if it is a non factor (it's obviously possible to trivialise encounters in many other ways at level 8).
While by RAW it works, I could see an argument being made for considering all bloodline powers as "from same source " and thus not allowing them to stack.
The devs dont want to tell GM's how to run their games. What is "too powerful" is often very objective so its best left to the table.
As an example some people have argued that allowing rogues to sneak attack every round is OP. Even though a level 8 rogue who can only sneak attack once can be outdamaged by a level 5 warrior(NPC class).
There is default baseline for "not OP" that officially exist. Even some of the stronger monsters in the book become less intimidating once you get some experience under your belt and you have system mastery.
All these are why the devs can't really do this. It would also backfire against them.
No matter what bar they tried to set it would be too low or too high. It's one of those things that best left to the GM and his table.
I know that I've made characters that stole the show at one table, but at another table would be considered weak.
RAW they all stack, using crossblooded archetype you could have +3 per damage dice to spells. At level 1 you're dishing out 4d4+12 burning hands with the right build. At level 4 it's 2 scorchinc rays for 8d6+24 (more if you have a bard or arcane strike). At level 6 it's a 9d6 +27 damage fireball, and at level 8 the fun really starts with empowered fireball or scorhing ray on top. (At this point the scorching Ray's will average 117 damage without crits or Nat 1's or other buffs)4d4+12 or ~26 at lv1 save for half ~13 like 5 times a day so? An 18 str raging barb with power attack is +7 for 2d6+12 ~19 and there are builds to get +9 for 2d6+15 ~22 damage at lv1 for at least 6 rounds a day. All will kill any lv1 they see and probably most lv2s as well.
Yes of course, but single target damage can't be compared to aoe damage, aoe is supposed to be lower because it accounts for multiple targets.
Not to mention that while a blaster sorcerer's main focus is damage, this focus will often cost 1 spell known per level (mitigated by FCB or money) and 2-3 spells known overall (burning hands scorching ray fireball retrain burning hands to something else, get battering blast, retrain scorching ray). Where the berbaruans sole focus is damage and almost nothing else, the sorcerer can still do a lot of other things like fly teleport buff debuff or do damage while blasting much more easily
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Taking a spell slot or spell known is hardly a limiting factor when you get 4 encounters per day.Limiting spells known is just makes it worst.İt enforces you to do one thing alone.This always looked wierd to me.
Hmm.....İs there a way ı dont know about sorcerers spells known?Can you realy fix that with money?
Yes of course, but single target damage can't be compared to aoe damage, aoe is supposed to be lower because it accounts for multiple targets.
Not to mention that, barring evasion/resistances/immunities, you are guaranteed at least half damage against the target. And half damage of an average of 26 is a lot of damage.
In my opinion, optimizing a blast spell is okay so long as you only go up to save-or-die. The moment you go into "die even if you save", that's where you start getting problems.
Not to mention that while a blaster sorcerer's main focus is damage, this focus will often cost 1 spell known per level
If we're talking 1st level with the example being Crossblooded, then you only have one spell known. If you want to use the versatility angle, you should use the 4d4+8 damage of the non-crossblooded variant (which, in my opinion, is actually the better overall build since the extra damage is overkill and more options are preferable)
Hmm.....İs there a way ı dont know about sorcerers spells known?Can you realy fix that with money?
There is, in fact! It's called the Page of Spell Knowledge. They're very pricey though, and if you don't need to use your own CL and DC you're usually better off stocking up on scrolls.
More common is to use the human favored class bonus, which grants 1 extra spell known every time you level up. This spell must be 1 level below the highest you can cast so it only really helps starting at 4th level, but it really pads out a Sorcerer's lower level selection.
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There is a post that Jason Bulmahn made that says what is good or bad for a FAQ thread, and I believe it's stickied somewhere, I just don't know where.Did not know that, what's the etiquette?Titles aren't supposed to have "FAQ REQUEST" in all caps, either.
The Moderators have specifically told us that such threads will be removed from the FAQ queue.
It was Stickied at the top of the Forum, but it was edited sometime this last year.
Only the occasional comment from the Moderators makes reference to it now.
If blasters go from being decent back to shite, or if Paizo so much as touches Spell Perfection, we're going to have words.
The blaster builds described is one of the few things that make blasters viable. Spell Perfection is a model on which all high level feats should aspire to be.