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I was doing some work on my Envoy build and doing some reading and had a thought and wanted to get people's opinions.
Does Get 'Em require the enemy creature that your allies gain the +1 bonus against be able to understand you? Can it be used against Undead and other creatures immune to Mind-Affecting effects?
Get 'Em is a Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting, Sense-Dependent effect. It states:
As a move action, you can choose one enemy within 60 feet. Until the start of your next turn, you and your allies gain a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls made against that enemy. The bonus persists even if the enemy moves beyond 60 feet or out of line of sight or hearing.
Does the line "...you can choose one enemy within 60 feet" make the creature your allies get +1 bonus to hit against a "target" such that the following applies:
A language-dependent effect uses intelligible language (either audible, visual, or telepathic) as a medium for communication. If you cannot communicate with the target or the target cannot understand what you are communicating, the effect fails to affect that target.
I think it is worth noting for purposes of this discussion that Get 'Em specifically mentions that this effect persists even if the enemy moves beyond "out of line of...hearing" which seems to imply that the enemy being able to hear you in the first place may have been a prerequisite.
I also think its also worth noting that a line identical to Get 'Em is used for Not in the Face "As a move action, you can choose one enemy within 60 feet. That enemy must succeed at a Will save or take a –4 penalty to all attacks it makes against you until the end of your next turn." I don't think many people would argue that the enemy is not the target of Not in the Face.
So what do others think, can you use Get Em on something immune to Mind-Affecting effects or who does not share your language? Why or why not?
The alternate interpretation which was being posited was that due to the fact that the bonus is being applied to the Envoy and their Allies, and a negative is not being applied to the Enemy, that the target is the Allies and not the Enemy. All similar Improvisations clearly have the effect applied to the Enemy in the form of a Negative. Get 'Em gives the Allies a +1 morale Bonus to Hit instead of a -1 Penalty to AC for the Enemy.
I don't see where Mind-Affecting would not be used as written. The target is what would determine the relevancy of the how it is applied. For instance, Inspiring Boost, would not work on an Android Ally.
I was doing some work on my Envoy build and doing some reading and had a thought and wanted to get people's opinions.
Does Get 'Em require the enemy creature that your allies gain the +1 bonus against be able to understand you? Can it be used against Undead and other creatures immune to Mind-Affecting effects?
Get 'Em is a Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting, Sense-Dependent effect. It states:
As a move action, you can choose one enemy within 60 feet. Until the start of your next turn, you and your allies gain a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls made against that enemy. The bonus persists even if the enemy moves beyond 60 feet or out of line of sight or hearing.Does the line "...you can choose one enemy within 60 feet" make the creature your allies get +1 bonus to hit against a "target" such that the following applies:
A language-dependent effect uses intelligible language (either audible, visual, or telepathic) as a medium for communication. If you cannot communicate with the target or the target cannot understand what you are communicating, the effect fails to affect that target.I think it is worth noting for purposes of this discussion that Get 'Em specifically mentions that this effect persists even if the enemy moves beyond "out of line of...hearing" which seems to imply that the enemy being able to hear you in the first place may have been a prerequisite.
I also think its also worth noting that a line identical to Get 'Em is used for Not in the Face "As a move action, you can choose one enemy within 60 feet. That enemy must succeed at a Will save or take a –4 penalty to all attacks it makes against you until the end of your next turn." I don't think many people would argue that the enemy is not the target of Not in the Face.
So what do others think, can you use Get Em on something immune to Mind-Affecting effects or who does not share your language? Why or why not?
The effect is on your allies, not on your enemies so it doesn't matter what they are immune to. However if your ally is immune to mind-affecting things then he would not benefit from it because he would not be able to get the morale bonus.
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I don't see where Mind-Affecting would not be used as written. The target is what would determine the relevancy of the how it is applied. For instance, Inspiring Boost, would not work on an Android Ally.
Same issue since its mind-affecting anyone who is a target would not be affected. I think it ultimately boils down to who is the target of Get 'Em.
1) Enemy Only
2) Enemy and Allies
3) Allies Only
1 and 2 would seem to negate the effect completely since you can't affect the enemy to give your allies the +1 against them, 3 would grant the bonus to all of your allies who were not immune to mind-affecting or language-dependent (an android would be effected but a mechanic's drone would not be, not that they have stamina to begin with.)
I think RAI, Get'em effects the players, not the monster. I think the "Out of hearing" clause is something that got messed up in editing.
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I think RAI, Get'em effects the players, not the monster. I think the "Out of hearing" clause is something that got messed up in editing.
That's my thought too, but then why does Get 'Em require that the enemy be within 60 feet of you? Compare this to Watch Out which states:
As a reaction, when an enemy makes a ranged attack against an ally within 60 feet of you, you can warn that ally of the danger. You must spend your reaction when the enemy declares the attack but before it makes the attack roll. Your ally can spend a reaction to gain a +4 to AC against the triggering attack.
Here the enemy's distance doesn't matter, the only distance that matters is the ally, so here I think its much more clear that the ally is the target of the improvisation versus Get 'Em where the distance is to the enemy. This also seems to further enforce the idea that the enemy is at least one of the targets of Get 'Em and therefore needs to be subject to mind affecting things and share your language.
Owner - La Guarida Game Center
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Each of your allies need to understand whatever language you're speaking when activating the Improvisation, need to have at least INT 1 (not unconscious or immune to mind affecting), and have a way to hear your character to benefit from this ability.
The enemy's job is to, hopefully, stand there and look pretty while your allies get the bonus, but if the enemy runs, your allies still benefit from the bonus even if a chase breaks out (at least until your next round xD)
(And I managed to type this out on the phone without saying target until now, just like the ability.)
For this bonus, it's irrelevant if the enemy is deaf, unconscious AND mind-affecting immune, if it stays put or starts running.
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The enemy's job is to, hopefully, stand there and look pretty while your allies get the bonus, but if the enemy runs, your allies still benefit from the bonus even if a chase breaks out (at least until your next round xD)
Then why does it also need to be within 60 feet of you in the first place? If the only requirement is that it has to stand there and look pretty why does it need to be within a certain distance, note that the ability doesn't even appear to even initially require you to have line of sight to the enemy. So does the enemy even need to look pretty?
(And I managed to type this out on the phone without saying target until now, just like the ability.)
Alright, then how about Dispiriting Taunt. It is also a Mind-Affecting, Language-Dependent, Sense-Dependent improvisation.
As a standard action, you can taunt an enemy within 60 feet. Attempt an Intimidate check with the same DC as a check to demoralize that enemy (though this isn’t a check to demoralize, so you can’t use abilities that would apply to a demoralization attempt, like the rattling presence expertise talent). If you fail, that enemy is off-target (see page 276) until the end of your next turn. If you succeed, that enemy is instead shaken (see page 277) until the end of your next turn. This is an emotion and fear effect.
Dispiriting Taunt does not use the word target once(although it does make the creature off-target, a specific condition), is the enemy not the target of this ability? In fact, the only Envoy Improvs that do use the word target are Clever Attack(attacking a target within 60 feet), Draw Fire(attacks that don't target you), and Improved Get 'Em(again, attacking a target within 60 feet.)
So it seems the only time the Improvs use the word target is in connection with attack rolls. But its pretty clear from the rules that things besides attacks that require attack rolls have targets, and I would hope people wouldn't argue the above three abilities are the only envoy imrpovs that have targets.
Improved Get 'Em is also an interesting case because it requires the target of the attack to be within 60 feet and also gives your allies the benefits of Get 'Em but does not have any of the keyword icons. That could be a whole discussion onto itself.
For this bonus, it's irrelevant if the enemy is deaf, unconscious AND mind-affecting immune, if it stays put or starts running.
I understand this is how you all WANT this ability to work, but I'm not really hearing a lot of great arguments about why it DOES work this way RAW.
I think RAI, Get'em effects the players, not the monster. I think the "Out of hearing" clause is something that got messed up in editing.
I don't think it was a mistake.
I agree.
The idea behind the ability is that you are telling them to "get someone". An argument could be made that since they are out of sight or hearing range the ability on longer effects your allies, similar to how some bard performances require the bard to be seen or heard. In order to avoid this the clause would say that even when the allies can no longer hear or see you, they still get the benefit.
It should have said that if the allies move out of sight or hearing range that it still works.
I think we should FAQ the OP's comment because that is the only way to get this edited.
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Owner - La Guarida Game Center
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The enemy's job is to, hopefully, stand there and look pretty while your allies get the bonus, but if the enemy runs, your allies still benefit from the bonus even if a chase breaks out (at least until your next round xD)Then why does it also need to be within 60 feet of you in the first place? If the only requirement is that it has to stand there and look pretty why does it need to be within a certain distance, note that the ability doesn't even appear to even initially require you to have line of sight to the enemy. So does the enemy even need to look pretty?
The enemy needs to be within 60 feet so you can direct your allies to whichever enemy you want them to get.
(And I managed to type this out on the phone without saying target until now, just like the ability.)Alright, then how about Dispiriting Taunt. It is also a Mind-Affecting, Language-Dependent, Sense-Dependent improvisation.
As a standard action, you can taunt an enemy within 60 feet. Attempt an Intimidate check with the same DC as a check to demoralize that enemy (though this isn’t a check to demoralize, so you can’t use abilities that would apply to a demoralization attempt, like the rattling presence expertise talent). If you fail, that enemy is off-target (see page 276) until the end of your next turn. If you succeed, that enemy is instead shaken (see page 277) until the end of your next turn. This is an emotion and fear effect.Dispiriting Taunt does not use the word target once (although it does make the creature off-target, a specific condition), is the enemy not the target of this ability? In fact, the only Envoy Improvs that do use the word target are Clever Attack (attacking a target within 60 feet), Draw Fire (attacks that don't target you), and Improved Get 'Em(again, attacking a target within 60 feet.)
So it seems the only time the Improvs use the word target is in connection with attack rolls. But its pretty clear from the rules that things besides attacks that require attack rolls have targets, and I would hope people wouldn't argue...
Yes, more things than attack rolls have targets, but for Get'Em the envoy's targets are her allies, as they are the ones getting the +1 morale bonus to attacks to the chosen enemy.
I think RAI, Get'em effects the players, not the monster. I think the "Out of hearing" clause is something that got messed up in editing.I don't think it was a mistake.
I agree.
The idea behind the ability is that you are telling them to "get someone". An argument could be made that since they are out of sight or hearing range the ability on longer effects your allies, similar to how some bard performances require the bard to be seen or heard. In order to avoid this the clause would say that even when the allies can no longer hear or see you, they still get the benefit.
It should have said that if the allies move out of sight or hearing range that it still works.
I think we should FAQ the OP's comment because that is the only way to get this edited.
Hitting the FAQ button to see if they can make this any clearer.
The distance is to the enemy and requires them to be within 60 ft for a combination of balance and flavor. The point is that you pick an enemy and yell "get em!" and psych up your allies. If the enemy is super far away, you might not get their blood pumping. Plus, it stops snipers from just ganging up on people with an envoy hanging out with them.
It effects allies, but the enemy needs to be close enough for the allies to get pumped enough for it to have its effect. Simple enough.
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At this point I'm replying for viability as much as anything.
The enemy needs to be within 60 feet so you can direct your allies to whichever enemy you want them to get.
The point is that you pick an enemy and yell "get em!" and psych up your allies. If the enemy is super far away, you might not get their blood pumping.
Alright, suppose this is true and its a flavor thing for Get 'Em. Why does the same flavor not exist for Watch Out which I cited above, "As a reaction, when an enemy makes a ranged attack against an ally within 60 feet of you, you can warn that ally of the danger. You must spend your reaction when the enemy declares the attack but before it makes the attack roll. Your ally can spend a reaction to gain a +4 to AC against the triggering attack. Once the triggering attack is resolved, the ally falls prone."
Here the distance to the enemy doesn't matter but the ally has to be within 60 feet. It's the exact opposite of Get 'Em where the distance to the allies doesn't matter but the distance to the enemy does. Here the argument would be that the target is the ally and not the enemy because the distance is to the ally.
The flavor for Get 'Em targeting the enemy is that you should not to pump up your allies but to strike fear in the heart of the enemy as it hears you tell your allies to attack it. Although I admit that doesn't explain why its a morale bonus instead of a flat -1 to the enemy's AC.