Of the 22 races in the Alien Archive with Player Character write-ups, which are actually viable for player characters?
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All of them.
I'm especially looking forward to making an Urog Technomancer.
All of them.
I'm especially looking forward to making an Urog Technomancer.
Okay.
- I was wondering if the size issue for the Dragonkin, Haan, Sarcesian, Shobhad and, yes, Urog would be a problem.
- I can also see some story issues with Grey, Reptoid, and the Witchwyrd.
I don't see being large as much a detriment Starfinder.
But, I haven't really had a chance to play with them yet, so, issues may crop up.
As far as the rest goes, I'm not as enthusiastic about those races anyway, but everything can be overcome by an enthusiastic voice.
My youngest son is most excited for Contemplatives.
Being large is a significant detriment.
I'd say the mix of battle terrain has been pretty consistent with Pathfinder, which is to say there are lots of corridors/tight rooms (ships & bases) & lots of terrain (storage areas, trees, & furniture). And the social situations aren't necessarily built to handle your visit.
We had places where our party of 5+drone had some tactical issues. A large PC would have amplified that.
In PF size can be worth it with Combat Reflexes, reach, & greater weapon damage (plus more and plus methods to get around the flaws), but in SF you only get the one swing and all you gain is reach. I like reach, especially in a game where Full Attacks only occur when you don't move, but squeezing (ever) & the lack of tactical maneuverability make being large a no-go to me. Some of the RPing aspects and my common inkling to handicap my PCs may alter that, but I would dissuade anybody who wasn't certain.
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Yeah I have to say I was very underwhelmed with this book. All the price of a bestiary with half the content. Any race I thought was mildly interesting was either large or took a penalty to DEX, making it a no go.
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Of the 22 races in the Alien Archive with Player Character write-ups, which are actually viable for player characters?
The following races are from the Pact Worlds, have the Humanoid type, and are either small or medium. I would say these races take no additional effort (above a core race) to play or to fit into a campaign:
If you're not tied to local races (if you have a different setting or a particularly exotic campaign), you can add
If your GM is okay with non-humanoid PCs, the Pact Worlds has
and more exotically
Finally, the large races are probably the most difficult to adjust for, including
Honestly, the definition of playability will vary strongly from table to table. Nothing here is truly a gamebreaker, it's up to what your GM considers appropriate for the campaign. At the bare minimum, that first list is mechanically indistinguishable from the core races.
Kalo are from one of Bretheda's moons and should probably be under the Pact World list.
Grays are in a very strange position mechanically. According to their monster stat blocks and fluff, Grays speak exclusively via telepathy, and in fact cannot verbally communicate. PC Grays have Telepathic Message as an at-will cantrip, but it is markedly inferior to even limited telepathy, and they also have no restriction on verbal communication. So they are exclusively telepathic, except for a small number of them that are not very good at telepathy and can actually speak. For some reason.
Reptoids are playable, but I find it incredibly frustrating they put a time limit on Change Shape.
The issues I have/my GM has:
If you're not tied to local races (if you have a different setting or a particularly exotic campaign), you can add
If your GM is okay with non-humanoid PCs, the Pact Worlds has
and more exotically
What's so bad about a Dex penalty? Due to the point buy system, you can still start with high Dex pretty easily.
I'm currently playing a ysoki who will be as strong as the mightiest Vesk, from levels 1 - 20, despite his Strength penalty.
Its not like in Pathfinder where it meant you were behind your entire career.
What's so bad about a Dex penalty? Due to the point buy system, you can still start with high Dex pretty easily.
I'm currently playing a ysoki who will be as strong as the mightiest Vesk, from levels 1 - 20, despite his Strength penalty.
Its not like in Pathfinder where it meant you were behind your entire career.
In my experience DEX is much more important in Starfinder. ACs tend to be low as it is, so every bit helps there, Ranged is huge in this game, and if you're playing 10pt buy a 12 DEX with no penalty is 1/5 my points, with a penalty it's almost half my points, and that's for a slightly above average DEX. This is made worse by the fact that odd numbers are completely useless. An 8 and 9 are exactly the same and will always be exactly the same right up to level 20.
In Pathfinder casters could get away with lower DEX, because touch AC almost universally get smaller as CR goes up. In Starfinder everyone can use touch attacks, meaning the touch ACs should increase at roughly the same rate, requiring even casters to use DEX.
Was anybody else hoping for construct races? I was very disappointed that there was no non-biological player races in the Archive.
Are you referring to Aballon?
Well dex penalty isn't killer it does make it a bit harder to go for something that isn't where the race excels or melee with heavy armor.
The main reason why a -2 Dex penalty at a Race doesn't matter is because unless you roll for your stats, you can adjust the attributes points in such a way that you have as high a dex as any other character.
It's actually where the bonuses lie for a race that is important at level 1 as if they are in stats you don't want, then you will have lower stats elsewhere until you reach level 5 and get the first set of attribute bonuses.
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Well dex penalty isn't killer it does make it a bit harder to go for something that isn't where the race excels or melee with heavy armor.The main reason why a -2 Dex penalty at a Race doesn't matter is because unless you roll for your stats, you can adjust the attributes points in such a way that you have as high a dex as any other character.
It's actually where the bonuses lie for a race that is important at level 1 as if they are in stats you don't want, then you will have lower stats elsewhere until you reach level 5 and get the first set of attribute bonuses.
Oh good! I was beginning to think I was the only one who understood this.
Let's take two races, one with a Dexterity bonus, and one with a Dexterity penalty.
Reptoid (Dex penalty)
Ysoki (Dex bonus)
Both are going to be ranged soldiers, and so Dexterity is paramount.
Base Scores:
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Reptoid scores with Outlaw theme:
Str 12, Dex 9, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12
Ysoki scores with Outlaw theme
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
Reptoid scores with 10 points added:
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12
Ysoki scores with 10 points added:
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12
Well, wouldn't you know it? They're the same! Racial ability modifiers actually don't really matter too much due to the way Starfinder was designed. It may effect your minimums, but has little to no effect on your maximums. This is one of the great new features of Starfinder, as it allows you to play almost anything you want, without feeling totally gimped.
Reptoid scores with 10 points added:
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12Ysoki scores with 10 points added:
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12Well, wouldn't you know it? They're the same!
Hmm, well, that's assuming the Ysoki is going to want to put that many points into Strength and any points in Charisma which is a pretty huge assumption to make. I think of the two points that the Reptoid gets in Charisma as being locked there. It's two points you're missing somewhere else and you don't have them for something actually useful as a Soldier.
Let's take a Longarms Mechanic as another example. You'd like high stats in Intelligence and Dexterity, obviously. Androids get bonuses to Int and Dex, so you can get up to 18/16 in your main stats (or 16/16 and 12 on something else) and the only penalty is Charisma. If, on the other hand, you choose a race that had a Dex or Int penalty, you couldn't get anywhere close to that.
I'm currently playing a Shirren Mechanic and that's fun and all, but my character would definitely be stronger if it had +Dex instead of +Con or +Int instead of +Wis. Because if I had the choice of where to put these points, I definitely wouldn't have put two of them in Wisdom.
It's impossible to get two 16s with a race that has a penalty to one of the stats. This isn't a killer, as I said but it's why you are better off melee focusing on something with dex penalty. I perfectly well understand Ravingdork and Helvellyn and there's a reason I said what I said.
Right, get where your coming from now. You are right you can’t have two scores at 16 at level 1 if one carries a penalty or if neither has a bonus (and by extension two at 18 at level 5).
Not sure if it makes a difference at higher levels with the diminishing returns on high attributes (would need to do the maths).
I think the interesting starting points are 14, 16 and 18 which are what your main stats usually start at. I shall call these "low", "mid" and "high" and shall be referring to the modifier only.
Level 1 to 4, they are all 1 apart.
Level 5 to 9, low and mid are 1 apart, mid and high are the same.
Level 10 to 14, low and mid are the same, mid and high are 1 apart.
repeat the last two
This means that, from level 5 onward, that starting difference of 4 points is just a modifier difference of 1. Yes, this can make a difference, but it's by no means crippling. And depending on which level you're playing at, there may be no difference in power between someone starting at 14 and someone starting at 16.
I think this is pretty obvious, but I will state it regardless: Never start your "always increase" stats at an odd number. You're wasting a point in the increase from 16 to 18. There is, however, good reason to start there if you just want to get them up to 13 or 15 to get access to feats.
Well dex penalty isn't killer it does make it a bit harder to go for something that isn't where the race excels or melee with heavy armor.The main reason why a -2 Dex penalty at a Race doesn't matter is because unless you roll for your stats, you can adjust the attributes points in such a way that you have as high a dex as any other character.
It's actually where the bonuses lie for a race that is important at level 1 as if they are in stats you don't want, then you will have lower stats elsewhere until you reach level 5 and get the first set of attribute bonuses.
Oh good! I was beginning to think I was the only one who understood this.
Let's take two races, one with a Dexterity bonus, and one with a Dexterity penalty.
Reptoid (Dex penalty)
Ysoki (Dex bonus)Both are going to be ranged soldiers, and so Dexterity is paramount.
Base Scores:
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10Reptoid scores with Outlaw theme:
Str 12, Dex 9, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12Ysoki scores with Outlaw theme
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10Reptoid scores with 10 points added:
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12Ysoki scores with 10 points added:
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12Well, wouldn't you know it? They're the same! Racial ability modifiers actually don't really matter too much due to the way Starfinder was designed. It may effect your minimums, but has little to no effect on your maximums. This is one of the great new features of Starfinder, as it allows you to play almost anything you want, without feeling totally gimped.
LOL are you messing with me right now? I don’t think anyone is saying that you can’t make suboptimal choices to make them come out the same. Why would the Ysoki waste 4 points on a stat that does nothing for them? Drop 2 points of STR put it in DEX and well wouldn’t you know it, the Ysoki is better off. He could actually drop another point of STR put it in CON and he’s MUCH better off.
I think the point is that you are not necessarily forced to make suboptimum choices because a race has -2 dex (or other penalty to a stat). There are classes and builds where you can still have an optimised character even if you have a -2 in Dex just as there are others where the stat penalty can really hurt at level 1 in particular..
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Anyone who isn't an operative or a ranged soldier is taking at least a 1 resolve + something(save dc, skill checks, etc.) By having a penalty in dex. Whether this is suboptimal depends on a lot of factors including what you get for picking a race with a dex penalty.
Some may be worth it, nuar with a natural attack and 10 feet of movement make for pretty good heavy armor melee soldiers (albeit losing some of that extra movement except for specific armor choices). They can also make up their dex penalty with a better piloting (only lashunta can do better)
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LOL are you messing with me right now? I don’t think anyone is saying that you can’t make suboptimal choices to make them come out the same. Why would the Ysoki waste 4 points on a stat that does nothing for them? Drop 2 points of STR put it in DEX and well wouldn’t you know it, the Ysoki is better off. He could actually drop another point of STR put it in CON and he’s MUCH better off.
I take it your alternate ysoki build will never use heavy weapons then? That's a shame. So much wasted damage potential for a ranged soldier.
Anyone who isn't an operative or a ranged soldier is taking at least a 1 resolve + something(save dc, skill checks, etc.) By having a penalty in dex. Whether this is suboptimal depends on a lot of factors including what you get for picking a race with a dex penalty.
Some may be worth it, nuar with a natural attack and 10 feet of movement make for pretty good heavy armor melee soldiers (albeit losing some of that extra movement except for specific armor choices). They can also make up their dex penalty with a better piloting (only lashunta can do better)
Dont disagree with any of that. Its the blanket statements about a race being bad I disagree with (which when rereading the thread weren't actually yours on hindsight so sorry for incorrectly quoting you). The suitabity of a given race is, as you say, dependent on builds etc.
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Some responses for your GM
The issues I have/my GM has:
Drow-evil race(personally I love the arms dealer take but GM says no)
Remember, Drow are sentient, which means they can be of any alignment. Sure, their dominant culture is evil, but they are a part of the pact worlds now, so it is super easy with a Drow to escape the oppressive evil bigotry of his/her society if they wanted a society where everyone DOESN’T stab you in the back.
Goblin-evil race
Like above, it is possible to have a non-evil goblin. Sure, it is a little cliche for someone to be escaping their evil society, but it is possible.
Ryphorian-ok i guess but next to useless stat bonuses.
Make great mystics. And because of the way stats work in Starfinder, you can make a decent anything but melee soldier/Solarian.
Skittermander- These seem too comic relief to me. I prefer a more serious game
Guess I can’t fault you for that, but again, you can play against type and be the atypical super serious skittermander. Just because they are typically X doesn’t mean they are ALWAYS X
Kalo-water only presents issues
Sure, I get it, but with life bubble AND armor environmental seals, you can mitigate this pretty well. Just make a Kalo Mystic.
I take it your alternate ysoki build will never use heavy weapons then? That's a shame. So much wasted damage potential for a ranged soldier
Why would you assume that? It takes a 12 STR, even at 9 STR I can have a 12 by level 5 with an item. Even at first level it's only a -2 penalty with my increase to hit over your reptoid it's a net -1 for an increase in A.C. initiative Resolve and stamina. Or since we're talking about a d10 vs a d8 it's a whopping 1 point of damage average if I need that +1 to hit.
No matter how you look at it even with your cherry picked example the non-dex penalty is better.
It takes a 13 STRI take it your alternate ysoki build will never use heavy weapons then? That's a shame. So much wasted damage potential for a ranged soldier
Why would you assume that? It takes a 12 STR, even at 9 STR I can have a 12 by level 5 with an item. Even at first level it's only a -2 penalty with my increase to hit over your reptoid it's a net -1 for an increase in A.C. initiative Resolve and stamina. Or since we're talking about a d10 vs a d8 it's a whopping 1 point of damage average if I need that +1 to hit.
No matter how you look at it even with your cherry picked example the non-dex penalty is better.
No, heavy weapons up to level 10 take 12 Strength. From level 11 onwards, you need 14 Strength, but that's what the level 10 stat increase is for and you're good.
From what I am reading here then, the only ones I see a concern about are the three that cause "story" issues because of secret elements in the race's background: the Grey, the Reptoid, and the Witchwyrd.
No, heavy weapons up to level 10 take 12 Strength. From level 11 onwards, you need 14 Strength, but that's what the level 10 stat increase is for and you're good.It takes a 13 STRI take it your alternate ysoki build will never use heavy weapons then? That's a shame. So much wasted damage potential for a ranged soldier
Why would you assume that? It takes a 12 STR, even at 9 STR I can have a 12 by level 5 with an item. Even at first level it's only a -2 penalty with my increase to hit over your reptoid it's a net -1 for an increase in A.C. initiative Resolve and stamina. Or since we're talking about a d10 vs a d8 it's a whopping 1 point of damage average if I need that +1 to hit.
No matter how you look at it even with your cherry picked example the non-dex penalty is better.
Am I missing something?
The Heavy Weapons Feat has a prerequisite of STR 13. If your STR falls below 13, you should be treated as not being proficient with them. The same is true of Heavy Armor.
I'm pretty sure that if a class grants proficiency with something, you don't consider the feats at all. The Soldier has proficiency with Heavy Weapons, not the "Heavy Weapon Proficiency" feat.
I suppose an argument can be made regarding your interpretation. Until there’s a FAQ on it, I would call it a “reasonable interpretation,” but it’s not how I interpret the situation.
I think it's made perfectly clear. After all, the CRB states about the Armor Proficiency entry:
This entry lists the armor types with which you are proficient (meaning you automatically know how to use them).
Automatically, to me, implies that your character definitely knows how to use these, no questions asked. The Heavy Armor Proficiency has a prerequisite of 13 Strength, but it doesn't talk about feats, it just says you know how to use them due to your class training. And about weapons, it states:
This entry lists the weapon types in which you are proficient.
It doesn't even mention feats and why should it? You are proficient with these, done. Sure, you can get feats to get extra proficiencies, but nowhere does it state that you need to fulfill the feat prerequisites to gain the proficiencies that your class automatically gives you. The usual "(as per the feat)" wording is nowhere to be seen.
Furthermore, there are other places where the game very clearly differentiates between "proficient in [blank]" and "gaining the [Blank] Proficiency feat". An ExoMech gains proficiency with heavy armor. It doesn't mention the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat, you just know how to use it.
A DroneMech's drone, on the other hand, can specifically gain the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat and it explicitly states that the feat prerequisites must be met.
These are worded completely differently which heavily implies that there is a difference.
Your interpretation is that classes don't actually gain proficiency in the things they are stated to be proficient in, just that they gain the Proficiency feats. It doesn't say that anywhere, where do you get that from?
Edit: Also, the wording about weapon proficiency in chapter 8 is as follows:
Most classes grant proficiency with basic melee weapons and small arms. Combat-oriented classes, such as solarian and soldier, grant proficiency with more categories of weapons, as noted in each class’s Weapon Proficiency section.
Again, it mentions feats literally nowhere.
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I suppose an argument can be made regarding your interpretation. Until there’s a FAQ on it, I would call it a “reasonable interpretation,” but it’s not how I interpret the situation.
I’m perfectly willing to be wrong on this, I just want to hear it from someone @paizo.com
Sounds like a good FAQ candidate.
Actually, I'm pretty sure this is pretty definitively answered in the Starfinder. To quote page 514, the actual definition of Proficiency:
Proficiency: You have proficiency with a weapon or armor type if you're trained in its use, through either your class or a feat. See pages 242-243.
The 'either' would seem to rather definitively indicate that the Proficiencies provided by Feats and the Proficiencies provided by Class are different categories entirely. Especially in combination with the other quotes shown above.
Yeah I have to say I was very underwhelmed with this book. All the price of a bestiary with half the content. Any race I thought was mildly interesting was either large or took a penalty to DEX, making it a no go.
What is the problem with large races?
The same problem with large animal companions in Pathfinder. They don’t fit and have to squeeze.
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There's nothing suggesting that Absalom station isn't built to accommodate large races. Every map of a region of Absalom in the adventure paths and society scenarios has almost exclusively ten-feet-wide doorways and corridors. There aren't too many maps of off-station interiors yet, but even then it seems ten feet is pervasive--including on ships. It's as if large races are a common part of civilized society now, and things are built with them in mind as a norm.
There's nothing suggesting that Absalom station isn't built to accommodate large races. Every map of a region of Absalom in the adventure paths and society scenarios has almost exclusively ten-feet-wide doorways and corridors. There aren't too many maps of off-station interiors yet, but even then it seems ten feet is pervasive--including on ships. It's as if large races are a common part of civilized society now, and things are built with them in mind as a norm.
And if you were playing all by yourself it might not be a problem, but since you usually have at least 3 other people, and most often for me 5 other people, it creates huge issues with 1 large player, imagine 5
There's nothing suggesting that Absalom station isn't built to accommodate large races. Every map of a region of Absalom in the adventure paths and society scenarios has almost exclusively ten-feet-wide doorways and corridors. There aren't too many maps of off-station interiors yet, but even then it seems ten feet is pervasive--including on ships. It's as if large races are a common part of civilized society now, and things are built with them in mind as a norm.And if you were playing all by yourself it might not be a problem, but since you usually have at least 3 other people, and most often for me 5 other people, it creates huge issues with 1 large player, imagine 5
If building station corridors and atriums are like building roads, then I have a feeling any place that's reasonably multi-cultural or has large residents like Akiton it's going to have some pretty generously sized architecture. Even with places now like metro station and malls, I could see a handful of large creatures getting around in places with open floor plans and high ceilings. But back to Absalom, sure, you might have to duck to get through door every now and then, but I imagine a large creature can get around with only a modest amount of trouble in most places. I would even wager a huge creature could get around provided they stick to the main corridors/atriums.
This would only become a real problem if you are dealing with an opponent that is deliberately taking advantage of cramped architecture, or go somewhere really not suited for visitors. Essentially, this is only a problem if noted.
There's nothing suggesting that Absalom station isn't built to accommodate large races. Every map of a region of Absalom in the adventure paths and society scenarios has almost exclusively ten-feet-wide doorways and corridors. There aren't too many maps of off-station interiors yet, but even then it seems ten feet is pervasive--including on ships. It's as if large races are a common part of civilized society now, and things are built with them in mind as a norm.And if you were playing all by yourself it might not be a problem, but since you usually have at least 3 other people, and most often for me 5 other people, it creates huge issues with 1 large player, imagine 5If building station corridors and atriums are like building roads, then I have a feeling any place that's reasonably multi-cultural or has large residents like Akiton it's going to have some pretty generously sized architecture. Even with places now like metro station and malls, I could see a handful of large creatures getting around in places with open floor plans and high ceilings. But back to Absalom, sure, you might have to duck to get through door every now and then, but I imagine a large creature can get around with only a modest amount of trouble in most places. I would even wager a huge creature could get around provided they stick to the main corridors/atriums.
This would only become a real problem if you are dealing with an opponent that is deliberately taking advantage of cramped architecture, or go somewhere really not suited for visitors. Essentially, this is only a problem if noted.
I don’t know what I’m not saying right to make you understand what I’m saying, but if you’re talking about a race’s culture and how they would design their architecture you’re missing my point. Let me try it this way: A lot of the published maps have 10’ wide hallways, imagine 6 PCs, all 10’ wide trying to fight, that is a problem.
A lot of the published maps have 10’ wide hallways, imagine 6 PCs, all 10’ wide trying to fight, that is a problem.
Not if you have Spring Attack. Then you can bounce past your allies, strike the enemy, and bounce back.
A lot of the published maps have 10’ wide hallways, imagine 6 PCs, all 10’ wide trying to fight, that is a problem.Not if you have Spring Attack. Then you can bounce past your allies, strike the enemy, and bounce back.
Or you could not be large, which seems like a better solution than forcing the entire party to take the 2 or 3 feats needed for spring attack, which does nothing for cover provided to the enemies by allies.
Or you could not be large, which seems like a better solution than forcing the entire party to take the 2 or 3 feats needed for spring attack, which does nothing for cover provided to the enemies by allies.A lot of the published maps have 10’ wide hallways, imagine 6 PCs, all 10’ wide trying to fight, that is a problem.Not if you have Spring Attack. Then you can bounce past your allies, strike the enemy, and bounce back.
Short of running out of movement, cover would not be an issue, as you would likely be making an attack from the same square as an ally, rather than from behind them.
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Short of running out of movement, cover would not be an issue, as you would likely be making an attack from the same square as an ally, rather than from behind them.Or you could not be large, which seems like a better solution than forcing the entire party to take the 2 or 3 feats needed for spring attack, which does nothing for cover provided to the enemies by allies.A lot of the published maps have 10’ wide hallways, imagine 6 PCs, all 10’ wide trying to fight, that is a problem.Not if you have Spring Attack. Then you can bounce past your allies, strike the enemy, and bounce back.
Now I'm picturing a 6-man soldier Dragonkin party dancing elaborate patterns around their enemies and one another while wielding unwieldy melee weapons. Like elven wardancers, but huge and armed with sledgehammers.
I'll call them "Violence in Motion".
I just realized the has no natural attacks/unarmed ability like Vesk.
Short of running out of movement, cover would not be an issue, as you would likely be making an attack from the same square as an ally, rather than from behind them.Or you could not be large, which seems like a better solution than forcing the entire party to take the 2 or 3 feats needed for spring attack, which does nothing for cover provided to the enemies by allies.A lot of the published maps have 10’ wide hallways, imagine 6 PCs, all 10’ wide trying to fight, that is a problem.Not if you have Spring Attack. Then you can bounce past your allies, strike the enemy, and bounce back.
Unless you’re ranged and standing at the back of the line, and let’s not completely ignore that everyone in the party has to have a 15 DEX take 2 feats and it doesn’t come online until 5th level if you’re full BAB 7th if you’re not.
I think the ridiculousness of the only viable option highlights my point very well.
I think the ridiculousness of the only viable option highlights my point very well.
Low level characters are kind of meant to suck.