The sad part is with Armory Starfinder was reaching the threshold of playability for me (I like having a lot of content), but any time I think about Starfinder now I associate it with getting ripped off, lied to, and strung along for half a year by people I gave hundreds of dollars to.
Update: their customer service department has quit, and they're starting ANOTHER PROJECT
Got a link to these?
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They've taken on mini design/production for an X-files/Men in Black crossover board game
press release
And yesterday their customer service guy announced on their forums that it was his last day
Resignation/Termination
Update: They've announced participation in a NEW KICKSTARTER for this spring. I seriously wish I was making this up. I think I'm back to being mad at Paizo, they've let themselves get played for fools just as much as me.
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I'd love to hear from someone at Paizo about their thoughts on how the kickstarter is going. Especially since they sold many of their customers into participating in the kickstarter saying they had complete faith that the kickstarter would be fulfilled.
Update: They've announced participation in a NEW KICKSTARTER for this spring. I seriously wish I was making this up. I think I'm back to being mad at Paizo, they've let themselves get played for fools just as much as me.
is IDW seperate from ninja division/ super dungeon explorer? It said the sculpts would be by ninja division which sounds like they'll have someone else handle production?
I'll be honest - I have no idea what the IDW/ND relationship is. Are they, like, partners? Parent/child company? Renamed? XD; I did a quick search, but couldn't find any info on it.
IDW is a comic publisher, like Marvel and DC. They're mostly known for big name licensed comics (Transformers, Ninja Turtles, Star Trek, Ghostbusters, GI Joe, etc). In more recent years they have branched out to board games as well.
Ninja Division/Sodapop are a separate company. In this case IDW has partnered with Ninja Division for these 2 projects. It sounds like Ninja Division will create the sculpts but IDW will be producing their own miniatures. Basically they are hiring Ninja Division to make the 'pattern' for the minis.
EDITED to add a Wikipedia link for IDW.
Since we can't get accountability from ND, I think Paizo should release exactly what they signed with these fraudsters.
Licensing Manager
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Sometimes silence means nothing more than there's nothing new to say.
We continue to do everything we can to help Ninja Division fulfill all of their commitments. They have now successfully shipped all of the Humble Bundle figures and the pre-painted sets that they started before the Kickstarter. In the end, both of those turned out great. If you can look at the pre-painted sets objectively, they're pretty amazing figures.
Ninja Division's Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter has been trying and frustrating for everyone involved, and that includes Ninja Division. They're no happier about the way this has gone than you are, or we are. They're working diligently to correct manufacturing and shipping problems as fast as they can, and we're doing everything we can to help them. I wouldn't say that it has been a perfect storm, but while the issues that they've faced are fairly normal in the business it isn't normal to have them all happen on the same project.
We remain optimistic that Ninja Division will eventually be able to fulfill the Kickstarter, but we don't have a timeline for when that will happen. All we can do is continue to work with them, support them, and help them as much as we can.
As always, if you have questions about the Kickstarter, you should direct them to Ninja Division at either info@ninjadivision.com or starfinder@ninjadivision.com.
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I've been holding of on a reply from Paizo on an early comment I made.
"While it is not our place to comment on their past KS campaigns, except to say that any blame placed on them for the Robotech debacle is completely misplaced and misguided. They, like many of us in this industry, were merely contracted to design a game for someone else's KS and Ninja Division followed through with everything they were charged with. It was, and still is, up to those that ran the KS campaign to fulfill the product to the audience. One wouldn't blame one of our writers for Paizo not releasing a module, right? So why are they being blamed for that failed KS? It's just not right."
Because many of us would never have backed the RTT kickstarter given Palladiums crap reputation had ND not stepped in and sold the game to by assuring us they were in charge of the minis, which they weren't, and that they would finish the game, which they didn't. They bailed in a hot second without so much as an explanation and left us all to hang. We don't necessarily blame them for the failure of the project, we all know who the real culprit is there, we blame them for basically lying and misrepresenting there role in the project to sell it to us and then abandoning us.
Likewise many people might not have pledged in the starfinder mini campaign had Paizo not sold them on how trustworthy ND was and been assured by Paizo that they would get product.
Yes, they are a licensee to you, just as ND was to palladium, but the minute YOU stepped in and SOLD people on the kickstarter based on you assurances, YOU became responsible.
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Someone on the Super Dungeon Explore KS posted the ND response to their Attorney General, and it's illuminating.
1. ND needs 750k to complete the Super Dungeon Explore Kickstarter.
2. They used Kickstarter money to pay their non-kickstarter overhead.
3. They likely knew they were basically insolvent before the Starfinder KS was announced and Paizo either knew or was lied to about this.
4. The Starfinder Minis backers have been sporadically getting are almost certainly only being made to avoid legal action from Paizo.
5. They seem to have mastered the art of hiding behind Kickstarter's disclaimers.
6. They touted their Customer "Service" guy as evidence of good faith. Guess who got laid off a week ago?
I think I figured out where our backer money went...
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GoogleDoc from the Kickstarter
Attorney General Response
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Just adding my voice to the growing number of people frustrated with the way ND is dragging Paizo's name through the mud. Looking at various other posts on multiple websites about ND's other projects it looks like a ponzi scheme to me. And now, the only person who was actually talking to us at ND, Scott, has been fired. ND is refusing to answer any emails and issued a statement (which technarken linked above) basically saying "stop picking on us. It's only making it harder for us to do what we promised"? That's some grade A BS right there. This is going to end up as a class action lawsuit and I wouldn't be surprised if Paizo got named in it as well. It's just a shame. I did the All-In backing on Kickstarter based on Paizo's name being associated with it. Now ND is ruining Paizo's reputation with over 1000 people. ND won't do anything, hopefully Paizo will.
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That wasn't a public statement. That's what they told an Attorney General when some complaints caused them to make inquiry. This is something they'd likely have never wanted to see the light of day...
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Based on this BS I'm not going to jump in on Pathfinder backed Kickstarters. I suppose Kingmaker worked out but its just too unreliable now. Had eyes on that Seoni statue but no way.
Before this turns into some grar directed at any and all Paizo and Friends related Kickstarters let me point out that Dynamite is a reputable company and there's been no issues with them putting out the Pathfinder Comics in conjunction with Paizo so far.
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I just want what was taken from me (with Paizo's assistance) back. Once that happens I can go back to business as usual. I've got a pretty big backlog of Paizo stuff I'd love to buy with that $400.
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Archon is their resin miniature Manufacturer. Turns out they won't produce minis for you if you decide not to pay them.
Archon is their resin miniature Manufacturer. Turns out they won't produce minis for you if you decide not to pay them.
*gasp* REALLY?
What the heck happened to all the Kickstarter money?
According to the memo they used it to fund their company (payroll for 7ish people and a building?) while they re wrote the rules for super dungeon explorer 2.
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What the heck happened to all the Kickstarter money?
I have only really been following Ninja Division/Soda Pop as it pertains to the Starfinder minis, so the following is second or third hand information. Nonetheless, as best I can tell:
It's not something Ninja Division have discussed publicly in any great depth, but from dribs and drabs of information of a semi-official nature it appears that things went wrong for them in the Super Dungeon Explore:Legends project a few years back. (They had previously completed a couple of kickstarters with mixed results).
It appears that they raised funds and produced a game and then decided it wasn't ready for release and went back to the drawing board. As I understand it, the funds raised for that project then disappeared in running costs while the game was reworked. Meanwhile, production costs were going up (and to be frank, it looks like they didn't really have a realistic plan for funding the delay) so that when it got time to produce, they were running out of money.
In the meantime, they had a few more projects come to fruition (I suspect part of their Super Dungeon Explore "rescue plan" was to do lots of profitable projects and use the cashflow to fund the cost overruns from the earlier kickstarter). As I understand things they also got burned on a further kickstarter where they were providing limited support but where backers assumed they were more heavily involved.
As it all went wrong, it seems to me that they decided to do a little bit of everything, rather than cutting their losses on any specific project. It doesn't appear that they quarantined funds for each project and as such what used to be one terminal project turned into several chronically underfunded projects.
From the latest comments from their supplier, it sounds like they have run out of goodwill/credit and everything has ground to a halt until they pay the bills.
I have previously been of the view that they were just delayed. It now seems to me that the problems facing the company are likely to be terminal (I'll reiterate my earlier caveat that all of this is based very much on second/third hand information - Ninja Division are not terribly transparent about what has gone wrong).
Reading between the lines, I think they costed all their projects and relied on profit to pay the overheads, then totally underestimated the effect it would have to delay projects and the knock-on effect that would have. Suddenly the product that was meant to fund the company for one year had to fund it for two, that required dipping into further projects, which then meant the profit from those wasn't available to cover the period they needed to pay wages, keep the lights on, etcetera...Now they are struggling to pay a key supplier who are no longer willing to extend them credit.
It's an alarm bell whenever a struggling company announces it is looking for investment. I have no problem investing in a company which is facing turbulent times (you can often get very decent returns) but only if they're ahead of the game. If they get to dire straits and then go looking for an angel investor I would advise all my clients to steer well clear - one of the key things a struggling company needs to turn things around is high quality management. If the course of events I outlined above is a bit accurate, it represents a failure of management and a certain naivete.
Long story short, my guess is that the money has gone on the company's ongoing running costs (or at least substantially gone on that). I think they've left it too late to save themselves long term (though I'm still hopeful a few more SF minis will trickle out, I doubt Ninja Division is going to survive to see the project to its conclusion - there's just too many problems to overcome and they've taken too long to face up to them).
EDIT: I've flagged this post in case it's breaching the "don't bring drama from other sites here" rule. This seems a special case, since (legalities aside) it was viewed by many of us as a Ninja Division/Paizo project. Apologies if the above speculation is all out of line.
I don't know why Paizo lent their name to this project.
They needed Starfinder miniatures, Ninja Division was the one that offered to make them after they had been turned down elsewhere.
What the heck happened to all the Kickstarter money?it appears that things went wrong for them in the Super Dungeon Explore:Legends project a few years back. (They had previously completed a couple of kickstarters with mixed results).
In the meantime, they had a few more projects come to fruition (I suspect part of their Super Dungeon Explore "rescue plan" was to do lots of profitable projects and use the cashflow to fund the cost overruns from the earlier kickstarter).
As it all went wrong, it seems to me that they decided to do a little bit of everything, rather than cutting their losses on any specific project. It doesn't appear that they quarantined funds for each project and as such what used to be one terminal project turned into several chronically underfunded projects.
From the latest comments from their supplier, it sounds like they have run out of goodwill/credit and everything has ground to a halt until they pay the bills.
I have previously been of the view that they were just delayed. It now seems to me...
This pretty much describes exactly what happened to Devil Pig Games, in part because they used preorder & KS funds to develop a non-KS game.
It seems despite KS intent and at one time rules otherwise creatos continue to dump all the money into one big bucket with little planning or cost control and cross there fingers and *hope* it all works out, relying on the fact that when it doesn't they can just say "opps, chineese, shipping costs, import fees, trump, haters" and all the other catch phrases they use to get out of dodge free because there is ZERO protection for backers on KS.
The fact that ND needed to use KS to fund this project should have been the biggest red flag to paizo.
*Rubs chin* I'm hesitant to lean on the law as a weapon, but sometimes I wonder if a really good Class Action lawsuit is necessary to get creators to be more responsible with the funds, either sequestering them to fulfill their stated obligations or, if using a different funding system, having some other acceptable plan in place. Creators are required to provide refunds if they can't fulfill their end of the bargain, but many of them seem to have no interest in doing that and Kickstarter is generally unwilling to enforce their own rules on the matter, even for things like stopping abusers from doing more crowdfunding through them in the future.
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Sometimes silence means nothing more than there's nothing new to say.
We continue to do everything we can to help Ninja Division fulfill all of their commitments. They have now successfully shipped all of the Humble Bundle figures and the pre-painted sets that they started before the Kickstarter. In the end, both of those turned out great. If you can look at the pre-painted sets objectively, they're pretty amazing figures.
Ninja Division's Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter has been trying and frustrating for everyone involved, and that includes Ninja Division. They're no happier about the way this has gone than you are, or we are. They're working diligently to correct manufacturing and shipping problems as fast as they can, and we're doing everything we can to help them. I wouldn't say that it has been a perfect storm, but while the issues that they've faced are fairly normal in the business it isn't normal to have them all happen on the same project.
We remain optimistic that Ninja Division will eventually be able to fulfill the Kickstarter, but we don't have a timeline for when that will happen. All we can do is continue to work with them, support them, and help them as much as we can.
As always, if you have questions about the Kickstarter, you should direct them to Ninja Division at either info@ninjadivision.com or starfinder@ninjadivision.com.
Considering the new information (likely concealed from Paizo), this didn't age well...
*Rubs chin* I'm hesitant to lean on the law as a weapon, but sometimes I wonder if a really good Class Action lawsuit is necessary to get creators to be more responsible with the funds, either sequestering them to fulfill their stated obligations or, if using a different funding system, having some other acceptable plan in place. Creators are required to provide refunds if they can't fulfill their end of the bargain, but many of them seem to have no interest in doing that and Kickstarter is generally unwilling to enforce their own rules on the matter, even for things like stopping abusers from doing more crowdfunding through them in the future.
Creators are NOT required to provide refunds.
That language was removed from the ToS years ago. Honestly most of the projects that failed even when that language was part of the ToS never gave refunds.
There is no recourse for backers other then asking for a refund & hoping they care enough to give one or a Lawsuit.
You can complain to ND.
You can complain to Paizo, they can complain to ND.
You can complain to KS, they'll tell you they aren't responsible.
You can complain to the AG, they'll ignore it.
You can complain to the BBB, they might send a letter to ND.
Personally, I find it useful for mental well-being to go into kickstarters viewing the role of backer as closer to an investor than to a customer. It’s not either (ie you don’t end up with equity) but it helps to realise going in that you don’t have a lot of protections/remedies available to consumers.
I’ve backed around half a dozen failed kickstarters now and since adopting that mindset I find it much less distressing.
Personally, I find it useful for mental well-being to go into kickstarters viewing the role of backer as closer to an investor than to a customer. It’s not either (ie you don’t end up with equity) but it helps to realise going in that you don’t have a lot of protections/remedies available to consumers.
I’ve backed around half a dozen failed kickstarters now and since adopting that mindset I find it much less distressing.
Failed KS aren't what bothers me, its the deception, lies and BS from the creators when they realize they are going to fail that bother me and the endless promises they know they can never keep hoping everyone forgets and they can get away without any repercussions.
Investor isn't the correct term either.
Gambler would be a better description.
It helps if you can approach it dispassionately when you do the research and instead of assuming its an awesome company with an awesome product you simply MUST have or your life will end, assume its a scam, from an unproven company and be very very cynical and skeptical BEFORE sinking hundreds of dollars into a project.
Prove to yourself its NOT a scam instead of feeling you must prove it IS a scam and walk away if it looks too good to be true. You can buy it retail or a ebayed 2nd copy someone bought as an investment if you really want the KS exclusives if in fact it does actually succeed.
With the extra 1-5 years of interest your money could earn it might even cost less in the long run that way :-p
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Personally, I find it useful for mental well-being to go into kickstarters viewing the role of backer as closer to an investor than to a customer. It’s not either (ie you don’t end up with equity) but it helps to realise going in that you don’t have a lot of protections/remedies available to consumers.
I’ve backed around half a dozen failed kickstarters now and since adopting that mindset I find it much less distressing.
Failed KS aren't what bothers me, its the deception, lies and BS from the creators when they realize they are going to fail that bother me and the endless promises they know they can never keep hoping everyone forgets and they can get away without any repercussions.
Investor isn't the correct term either.
Gambler would be a better description.
Having made my living playing poker for a while, it's very different from that too. :)
It helps if you can approach it dispassionately when you do the research and instead of assuming its an awesome company with an awesome product you simply MUST have or your life will end, assume its a scam, from an unproven company and be very very cynical and skeptical BEFORE sinking hundreds of dollars into a project.
Prove to yourself its NOT a scam instead of feeling you must prove it IS a scam and walk away if it looks too good to be true. You can buy it retail or a ebayed 2nd copy someone bought as an investment if you really want the KS exclusives if in fact it does actually succeed.
With the extra 1-5 years of interest your money could earn it might even cost less in the long run that way :-p
This is probably good advice for some, to be honest. It really depends on how much it's going to upset you if communication trails off and the project just dies out. (I agree with you that the lack of communication is a far bigger crime than failing to achieve a target - especially if the goal is ambitious).
My main point though is that many who get burned on Kickstarter begin looking around for consumer protection remedies (or start drawing analogies between preorders and kickstarting a project). I felt bad when it happened the first couple of times but I've found the "this is an investment in a speculative venture" mindset has helped alleviate that (and meant I've steered clear of many projects I otherwise might have been interested in).
That perspective might be useful to people who are only just beginning to use crowdfunding (or for whom this is their first failed project).
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lk78&page=3?Starfinder-Master class-Miniatures-Kickstarter#123
This also didn't age well
My main point though is that many who get burned on Kickstarter begin looking around for consumer protection remedies (or start drawing analogies between preorders and kickstarting a project). I felt bad when it happened the first couple of times but I've found the "this is an investment in a speculative venture" mindset has helped alleviate that (and meant I've steered clear of many projects I otherwise might have been interested in).
I don't think its reasonable to expect someone to take all the money raised for a kickstarter and have them throw it at something that's not the kick starter and then say whoops we're out of money we can't do the kickstarter.
Thats not your factory setting on fire or a production delay or a ship sinking with your stuff. Thats a deliberate action that you HAVE to know will result in the kickstarter not happening the same as if you'd taken the money out for ... ice cream.
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My main point though is that many who get burned on Kickstarter begin looking around for consumer protection remedies (or start drawing analogies between preorders and kickstarting a project). I felt bad when it happened the first couple of times but I've found the "this is an investment in a speculative venture" mindset has helped alleviate that (and meant I've steered clear of many projects I otherwise might have been interested in).I don't think its reasonable to expect someone to take all the money raised for a kickstarter and have them throw it at something that's not the kick starter and then say whoops we're out of money we can't do the kickstarter.
Thats not your factory setting on fire or a production delay or a ship sinking with your stuff. Thats a deliberate action that you HAVE to know will result in the kickstarter not happening the same as if you'd taken the money out for ... ice cream.
I think it's totally unreasonable behaviour to run a kickstarter and use those funds to do something else (if that's what happened).
My suggested mindset it a way to reduce potential angst as a backer, not a defence of negligent and probably fraudulent business practices.
My suggested mindset it a way to reduce potential angst as a backer, not a defence of negligent and probably fraudulent business practices.
Angst warranted
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Obviously. But perhaps not enjoyable.
This looks like real bad news.
So they took on new appointments with empty coffers due to blatant mismanagement? Might go out of business and all the pledges are gone?
That would really stink big time.
I don't believe doing a KS is like a possible investment.
What happened here looks a lot like fraud to me, because the money from the pledges should be bound to the actual project pledged for and not be redirected to different projects or used to fill empty coffers.
All this makes me really nervous. I also went all-in and have received a grand total of 10 miniatures (1 of which had broken feet). Based on the rumors that the manufacturer has put the line on hold, it seems the only way I'll get even a few more SF minis is to buy the pre-painted ones that made it to stores. But do I really want to shell out $120 for 17 minis? That decision would have been a lot easier if I had an extra $400.
What happened here looks a lot like fraud to me, because the money from the pledges should be bound to the actual project pledged for and not be redirected to different projects or used to fill empty coffers.
Even if KS don’t want to take any part in post-funding quality control, I wish they’d implement a requirement to include a budget in every project, together with mandatory monthly or quarterly reports to that budget after the fact.