Operative - Take 10 Trick Attack

[Xeall]

I'm reading in many many places people talking about Specialization Skill Mastery allowing you to take 10 on Trick attacks, which pretty much guarantees the trick success.

Doing the maths, 7 ranks in Bluff, 3 from class skill, +4 from Spy, 5 from Charisma (after adding to your 16 when stating up at level 5), and take 10 = 29.

That means you auto Trick anything CR+2 to your level.

That sounds super OP for a main offensive ability. So I read the rules again.

Specialization Skill Mastery: When attempting a skill
check with a skill in which you have the Skill Focus feat, you can
take 10 even if stress or distractions would normally prevent
you from doing so

Take 10: Unless you have an ability that states otherwise, you cannot take 10 during a combat encounter. Also, you can’t take 10 when the GM rules that a situation is too hectic or that you are distracted,

Now how I read this is to split the second part in 2

Unless you have an ability that states otherwise, you cannot take 10 during a combat encounter. - Skill Mastery does not state this. This sentence ends with a full stop meaning the point is over.

Also, you can’t take 10 when the GM rules that a situation is too hectic or that you are distracted, - this it does state.

I think this is more referring to distractions and stress that are much like old Concentration check modifiers from PF. So it more means an Operative can take 10 despite Winds, sea, jostled in a crowd, deafening noise, suffocating, etc.

Am I right or am I just reading into this WAAAAYYYY to much?

[Deadmanwalking]

You can absolutely use Skill Mastery on Trick Attack, and indeed doing so is pretty much assumed.

The damage still just about breaks even with a Full Attack for you, and remains way lower than a Soldier or Solarian full attack.

And after all, if combat isn't a 'stress or distraction' what is?

[Mark Carlson 255]

I am also curious as to the take a 10 on the check, as like always in the first game I rolled 3 nat 20's and 5 not 1's during the game.
MDC

[Deadmanwalking]

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

I am also curious as to the take a 10 on the check, as like always in the first game I rolled 3 nat 20's and 5 not 1's during the game.

MDC

Well it doesn't kick in until 7th level, so...

[Mark Carlson 255]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

I am also curious as to the take a 10 on the check, as like always in the first game I rolled 3 nat 20's and 5 not 1's during the game.

MDC

Well it doesn't kick in until 7th level, so...

My plan was if possible:

1st round: Trick attack take a 10, if succeed then continue if not then roll next round as the CR is above what a roll of 10 would allow me to hit.
Why? Well as I inferred above I tend to roll very high or very low and often being able to take a 10 is a great strategy for me.

MDC

[Deadmanwalking]

By the time you can Take 10 you'll almost never need to do that.

Assuming a 12 starting stat with a +4, or an 18 Dex and a +4 item, plus level ups, your total bonus at 7th should be +19. That's auto-success on CR 9 or less foes.

Unlike Pathfinder you should basically never be fighting encounters with creatures more than a CR or two above you.

[HWalsh]

This is lame and power gamey, but legal RAW. It is the result of Paizo not taking things into account.

[shade2077]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

By the time you can Take 10 you'll almost never need to do that.

Assuming a 12 starting stat with a +4, or an 18 Dex and a +4 item, plus level ups, your total bonus at 7th should be +19. That's auto-success on CR 9 or less foes.

Unlike Pathfinder you should basically never be fighting encounters with creatures more than a CR or two above you.

If you start with an 18 at first level you can only increase that to 19 from the 5th level stat bump, which doesn't give any benefit to the DCs you can hit. I can't see how you are getting anything like +19. Care to explain?

[d'Eon]

7 ranks, +3 from Operative's Edge, +3 class skill, 18 stat with a +4 upgrade added on.

You could start with a 16 at level 1, bump it to 18 at level 5, and use a MK 2 personal upgrade to get a 22 total, for a +6 bonus.

[mike roper]

Quote "This is lame and power gamey, but legal RAW. It is the result of Paizo not taking things into account." sorry we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. I don't find it very power gamey to me to allow a auto success on your level 1 ability by level 7 and a game that's mid-to-late game for most people anyways. If my math is right that's about the time full attack out does trick attack anyway

[d'Eon]

Yep, deliberate choice by the devs. Note how the weapons scale in damage, it's especially noticeable on the Solarian's Solar Weapon. Slow increases until level 8-10, then rapid increases every level.

Trick Attack follows a similar pattern. Slow gains early on, and the average damage is reduced by the occasional failure. Starting at mid-levels it takes off once you can't fail anymore.

The devs are even on record stating that you should auto-succeed about this point.

[Deadmanwalking]

HWalsh wrote:

This is lame and power gamey, but legal RAW. It is the result of Paizo not taking things into account.

As others note this is quite intentional.

It makes your Trick Attack DPR on par with your Full Attack DPR and thus strongly encourages a mobile and, well, tricky fighting style for the Operative, which seems to be a design goal.

[Mark Carlson 255]

d'Eon wrote:

The devs are even on record stating that you should auto-succeed about this point.

IMHO, this would be good to state somewhere. You could also just say that you auto succeed with creatures up to your CR+2 or some such rule. Or that you succeed on a CR+2 target as long as you do not roll a 1, etc.

MDC

[Darkling36]

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

d'Eon wrote:

The devs are even on record stating that you should auto-succeed about this point.

IMHO, this would be good to state somewhere. You could also just say that you auto succeed with creatures up to your CR+2 or some such rule. Or that you succeed on a CR+2 target as long as you do not roll a 1, etc.

MDC

The language used here about taking 10 seems pretty standard to me, and to my reading indicates in combat. But saying you auto succeed based on CR would be too much. Sure you can normally succeed with the numbers suggested but some operatives might be significantly lower stat wise, or be situationally unable to use their normal trick and instead have to use one with a lower stat or rank.