So, I'm GMing my first Pathfinder game in a week or 2. Actually, I've never even played before, just watched a single session of Society, but one of the players has some GM experience and can help me with rules. Anyway, I told the players that they could choose whatever classes/races they want and if there is an obvious deficit I'll give them an NPC rolebot (healer, trap finder, lockpicker, etc.) that they can dump if they want. Here's the classes they picked:
Gunslinger
Skald
Ninja
Occultist
The Occultist wants to be the healer, but in glancing over the class info and spell list I'm not seeing how this is viable unless I give him a healing wand and he just spams it. I have very limited (read: not any) experience with pathfinder, so can you all let me know if an occultist can fill the role of a healer in a party?
I'm not seeing how this is viable unless I give him a healing wand and he just spams it
This applies to the following classes:
Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Inquisitor, Oracle, Witch, Hunter, Investigator, Shaman, Skald, Warpriest, Medium and Spiritualist... and of course, the Occultist
I.e. healing is not viable in this game. What's viable is slapping a wand on the wounded party members after combat.
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I'm not seeing how this is viable unless I give him a healing wand and he just spams itThis applies to the following classes:
Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Inquisitor, Oracle, Witch, Hunter, Investigator, Shaman, Skald, Warpriest, Medium and Spiritualist... and of course, the Occultist
I.e. healing is not viable in this game. What's viable is slapping a wand on the wounded party members after combat.
I agree with some of those classes not being able to be effective healers (seriously, why is Rogue even on the list?), but I disagree with the sentiment.
To keep this clean:
My main problem lies in how people define the actual Healer role as a character that literally only uses unaltered Cure spells and/or unsupported Channel Energy in combat. I don't think I've ever seen a dedicated healer only use Cure spells.
Instead of the stereotypical Band-Aid box that is so often associated with clerics, I see the Healer as a First-Aid Kit: healing much more than hit point damage. They handle poison, disease, ability damage, conditions, and more.
Healing with only Cure spells/Channel isn't going to be effective enough, you're right. But in order to be effective at anything in this game, however, you have to spend resources at doing so, whether that's class choice, feats, items/gold, etc. varies.
The same goes for healing. If you decide to make a greatsword-wielding cleric with a 5 Charisma and a 20 Strength, then yeah, your healing will suck. If you roll up a life Oracle with a 20 Charisma and a 5 Strength that takes the Life Link and revelations from their mystery, then your healing won't suck.
And that's without mentioning the 9th-level casting strapped on. Or the other builds that rank under the Life Oracle (such as adding on some levels of Paladin for fantastic self-healing and much tankiness).
The Healer (as a role) is actually very viable, you just have to know what you want and be willing to spend the resources necessary to fill any sort of role imaginable.
Steps off soapbox.
But, answering the question: there's no real way I can see an Occultist filling the true Healer role in a party. They don't have enough spells known/per day or the class features to do so.
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My cleric with 10 channels at level 2 sure feels viable. I sat down at a table with multiple brand new characters. I told them, "Don't worry, you're not allowed to die." The way you can play a tank changes when a healer is around.
One of my characters so enjoys a certain life oracle he knows that a proposal of marriage was made.
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An Occultist can make a decent healer although not even close to a Cleric. To be good in this role you need to be able to cure hit point damage, but also have the ability to suppress or remove a wide range of conditions.
Conjuration Spells
The Conjuration Implement School is essential for a Healing Occultist. It grants access to a number of healing spells.
Level 0: Stabilize
Level 1: Cure Light Wounds
Level 2: Cure Moderate Wounds, Delay Poison
Level 3: Cure Serious Wounds, Symbol of Healing
Level 4: Cure Critical Wounds
Level 5: Cure Light Wounds (mass)
Level 6: Cure Moderate Wounds (mass), Heal
Stabilize is nice. You have Cure Light Wounds on your list, so using Wands of Cure Light Wounds is trivial for you. Most of the time that's going to be better than using spells to cure hit points, but you do have access to the spells if you want them. Heal is your ultimate healing spell since it heals a lot of hit points and also removes a wide range of conditions: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, poisoned, sickened, and stunned. But you won't get this spell until late in the game.
Focus Powers
The Conjuration Implement School also has two healing-related Focus Powers: Flesh Mend and Purge Corruption.
- The Flesh Mend Focus Power gives you a way to heal hit points using Mental Focus instead of using up spell slots, but Wands of Cure Light Wounds are usually going to be a better option.
- The Purge Corruption Focus Power can be used to duplicate the effects of the Neutralize Poison and Remove Disease spells. It's really valuable since neither of those spells is on your lists.
Other Implement Schools
Other Schools also have some useful spells for a healer.
- Diagnose Disease (level 1 divination) and Status (level 2 divination) can be used to detect a number of conditions.
- Calm Emotions (level 2 enchantment) can be used to suppress fear conditions and confusion.
- Lesser Age Resistance (level 3 transmutation) and Age Resistance (level 4 transmutation) can suppress the negative effects of age.
- Break Enchantment (level 4 abjuration) can remove enchantments, transmutations, and curses.
- Dispel Magic (level 3 abjuration) and Greater Dispel Magic (level 5 abjuration) are useful for ending spells which place conditions on you or your allies.
- Gentle Repose (level 3 necromancy) and Temporary Resurrection (level 5 necromancy) can help preserve your fallen comrades until a better healer is available.
- Death Ward (level 4 necromancy) can temporarily remove the penalties from negative levels.
Occult Skill Unlocks
You also get the Occult Skill Unlock - Faith Healing(Heal). In principle this can be used for a number of healing functions, but if you are reduced to using this then the situation is probably quite dire. ;)
Reliquarian Occultists
A Reliquarian Occultist can get even more healing options by selecting the Healing Domain or one of its subdomains. You get the granted powers (which, of course, are healing focused) and you add the domain spells to both your spell list and your spells known. It's almost like getting another Implement School. Some of the spells duplicate your Conjuration Implement healing spells, but that frees you up to select other Conjuration spells in their place. The Domain gets you Breath of Life as a 5th level spell and the Resurrection subdomain gets you Raise Dead in its place.
So you won't be the walking hospital that is a Cleric, but you could qualify as a very well-stocked ambulance. :)
About healing & healers (general info)
There is a camp of those who believe that no healing outside a wand of cure light wounds is needed. There are those who make do with what I call semi-healers. And there are those who have an actual healer.
The problem is that the damage in combat is (often significantly) higher than any healing spell available. Furthermore you can swing a sword at 1st level all day long for 1d8+4, but a cleric can cast only so many CLW for 1d8+1. From this discrepancy between limited and unlimited resources arises the philosophy that the best defense is a good offense - what is dead cannot do you harm.
And at low levels that can work, although sometimes badly.
At higher levels the whole thing breaks down completely when a single critical hit does around 90 damage. That is fine, as long as it is the PCs cleaving the monsters, but it does happen also the other way round. Second, at higher levels area attacks (AE) become very common. Even assuming that everyone will save and take only 1/2 damage this will whittle a group down. Just imagine 3 sorcerers nuking the party for 10d6 each, which they can do quite often - and at high levels they can do 30d6 per round when using quicken spell.
When that kind of damage happens, the infamous wand of CLW is completely useless and the party dead.
So you can get by at lower levels without a healer, but you need one the more the higher the level gets.
Healers come in several types. What I call main healers are oracles (life), clerics, and maybe shamans. Those are the guys who have access to channeling and more importantly the spells heal and mass heal.
A secondary healer is someone who has significant healing spells or powers, but not access to the spell heal.
"Healer" does not actually mean the guy will heal all day long. That is someone with a toolbox which allows to repair the party, but also to prevent damage. Resist spells, counterspelling or the command spell can all prevent damage. It is up to the healer to use the right tool at the right time. His job can be defined as keeping everyone else going at full efficiency. If he can cure the blinded archer, he has just added a couple of rounds of pointy destruction to the party. If he can airwalk the melees, he has just gotten them to the enemy, and the special terrain be damned.
Since the prevention spells are not very glamorous and cannot be used offensively, many people don't want to play healers. There is also the fear to be stamped as healbot forever :)
Anyway. At higher levels you need someone to keep the group alive in the face of said threats. A group of four exotic glass cannons is nice on paper, but doesn't work when push comes to shove.
The most common things to heal are hitpoints (of course), damaged stats, poison, negative levels and some conditions like blinded. If the occultist can do that, he has at least the common tools needed.
You can also check his number of spells per day and calculate how many HP he could theoretically heal, and compare that to the expected damage. It gives you an idea about what will happen, nothing more, but it's an indicator.
If you want to make sure, give them a NPC oracle (life) to help him out when needed. Then you can stand back and watch how they are actually doing and keep or drop the NPC accordingly.
About healing & healers (general info)
There is a camp of those who believe that no healing outside a wand of cure light wounds is needed. There are those who make do with what I call semi-healers. And there are those who have an actual healer.
The problem is that the damage in combat is (often significantly) higher than any healing spell available. Furthermore you can swing a sword at 1st level all day long for 1d8+4, but a cleric can cast only so many CLW for 1d8+1. From this discrepancy between limited and unlimited resources arises the philosophy that the best defense is a good offense - what is dead cannot do you harm.
And at low levels that can work, although sometimes badly.At higher levels the whole thing breaks down completely when a single critical hit does around 90 damage. That is fine, as long as it is the PCs cleaving the monsters, but it does happen also the other way round. Second, at higher levels area attacks (AE) become very common. Even assuming that everyone will save and take only 1/2 damage this will whittle a group down. Just imagine 3 sorcerers nuking the party for 10d6 each, which they can do quite often - and at high levels they can do 30d6 per round when using quicken spell.
When that kind of damage happens, the infamous wand of CLW is completely useless and the party dead.So you can get by at lower levels without a healer, but you need one the more the higher the level gets.
Healers come in several types. What I call main healers are oracles (life), clerics, and maybe shamans. Those are the guys who have access to channeling and more importantly the spells heal and mass heal.
A secondary healer is someone who has significant healing spells or powers, but not access to the spell heal.
"Healer" does not actually mean the guy will heal all day long. That is someone with a toolbox which allows to repair the party, but also to prevent damage. Resist spells, counterspelling or the command spell can all prevent damage. It is up to the healer to use the right tool at...
I like Life Oracle because I can mostly pick up buff spells and won't need too many cure spells due to the abilities leaving more room for other kinds of repair.
My point of view is that a wand of CLW is not what makes a healer, but its a big part.
What I'm against is the "healer" role, which I think is unsustainable in this game. I do believe that SUPPORT is a valid role, and healing is one of their major tools.
I'd describe a healing-based support character to have the following pillars:
1. Ability to fully heal the party during downtimes.
2. Ability to remove harmful conditions (easily done with Scroll crafting and UMD if needed).
3. Ability to ameliorate damage intake during battle (not just Shield Other or a Life Oracle's Life Link, but also stuff like Hold Person, Burning Disarm, and so on)
4. Ability to help bring down an enemy quicker if so needed (not necessarily damage, but enabling damage-oriented characters.)
Can an Occultist do this? To me, absolutely. They are incredible at UMD, very good item crafters due to high INT, have a great spell list and tons of party utility, especially because they can share their Implements.
While I agree that an incidental 1d8 of healing isn't really worth it, I still think a "healer" is still a viable option. I play a high-level Cleric that focuses on status removals and good healing, and while I can't keep up with the damage output, delaying death for one or two rounds is more than enough to win the battle.
That said, though, I'm not really sold on sixth-level healers. Mainly because most of them are spontaneous casters and thus give up a spell known for the CLW variant (while a Cleric has less spells per day, but can choose whichever spells he wants), and even moreso for the Occultist, but also because their healing is delayed. You really want to hit that next d8 of healing as soon as possible, and they're lacking that.
That said, I think an Occultist is a good example of a sixth-level healer. Still not as good as a Cleric, Oracle, or Druid, but as far as they go, pretty good. Standard Cure spells, and at level 3 the Cure Focus power. You as a DM might even houserule he can take it at level 1. I don't really see a reason for it being level 3, apart from the boost in healing supplies at level 1.
Occultist as a primary healer doesn't work. They don't get all the spells a Cleric gets. They get the healing but Neutralize Poison, cure disease, remove curse and other spells are missing. These missing spells can mean the difference between life and death. I'm not knocking the class at all but as a dedicated healer they fail.
As I mentioned before...
The Purge Corruption Focus Power lets them Neutralize Poison and Remove Disease. And Break Enchantment can remove curses.
Healing spells scale horribly. They get +1 to heal per level. Damage spells tend to get +1d6 per level.
a Level 1 tier 1 spell, Snowball completely out-damages the equivalent healing spell Cure Light Wounds by level 2. By level 5 you can use Intensify spell to make it 10d6 versus Cure Moderate wounds at 2d8+5.
Even the "mighty healbot" Clerics cant handle that. Paizo introduced Channel Positive Energy as a way to enhance the Cleric's healing but that also encourages people to think being a healbot is viable.
Technically anyone can use a wand as its only a fixed 20 DC. Keeping multiple healing wands in your party and have Use Magic Device on your list of important skills.
The only great healing spell I know of is Heal. It can heal up to 150 Hit Points per use.
An Occultist is worse than an Alchemist or Inquisitor at healing but still useful at it. I would suggest a tier 9 divine caster though. Witch, Shaman, Druid, or Cleric. Those can learn and use much high tier spells including healing ones.
Builds using Channel+Shield Other can make good in combat healers, but almost everything else has trouble keeping pace with damage. I've heard that some of the builds that summon monsters to heal work well but never witnessed it.
I'm tired of hearing Healbot.
I dont know if anyone actually insulted healers. If anything its the hardest job because its clearly a system set against it. You have a handful of spellslots and you arent going to heal your team with one per each.
If you can cast spells there are often better spells than using up precious daily spells. Its a better option to do things like buff your party or summon monsters than to bandage your teammates.
On that same note its your teammates responsibility to actually avoid damage. they should be purchasing items to make themselves tougher and take less risks.
Items cost money. Youre adventuring for money. If its a major problem in that your cannot afford then you need a player to stat acting an an accountant for your party.
Yes I just suggested you get an Adventurer/Accountant.
I'm tired of hearing Healbot.I dont know if anyone actually insulted healers. If anything its the hardest job because its clearly a system set against it. You have a handful of spellslots and you arent going to heal your team with one per each.
If you can cast spells there are often better spells than using up precious daily spells. Its a better option to do things like buff your party or summon monsters than to bandage your teammates.
On that same note its your teammates responsibility to actually avoid damage. they should be purchasing items to make themselves tougher and take less risks.
Items cost money. Youre adventuring for money. If its a major problem in that your cannot afford then you need a player to stat acting an an accountant for your party.
Yes I just suggested you get an Adventurer/Accountant.
That reminds me, there's a feat that allows you to use math tricks to boost your spellcasting with metamagic.
That reminds me, there's a feat that allows you to use math tricks to boost your spellcasting with metamagic.
mods, pls ban, tia
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mods, pls ban, tia
That reminds me, there's a feat that allows you to use math tricks to boost your spellcasting with metamagic.
Uh oh! Do I detect some math anxiety here?
It's okay. You just need more self confidence.
I think you just need to master
http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-3-662-06280-7
and then you will fell better about yourself!
No, that's just the worst feat in the game for balance reasons. All people of good will and sound mind pretend it never existed.
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Missed that.
Yeah, my first post was kind of a wall of text. :)
I think Purge Corruption and Break Enchantment were good design choices. As spontaneous casters Occultists are severely limited by their spells known. Taking up space with occasionally useful spells like Remove Poison, Cure Disease, Remove Curse etc. has a huge opportunity cost. Making a Focus Power that covers two of those is really nice, and Break Enchantment covers enchantments, transmutations, and curses so it is more versatile than Remove Curse.
If you look through my earlier post, you'll see that Occultists, especially Reliquarian Occultists, can address a wide range of conditions up to and including death. I think the only big one missing is removing negative levels.
That said, I don't disagree with your larger point. I think there are three important ways that Occultists fall way behind Clerics when it comes to healing:
(1) An Occultist has to spend huge amounts of class resources to be a decent healer: Focus Powers, spells known, and Mental Focus in particular. For Clerics the healing options are largely built-in. Healer Occultists are giving up so many other great options.
(2) Occultists can never match the sheer amount of healing available to Clerics which have so many spell slots as well as Channeling.
(3) While Occultists can access most condition removal options, they still get most of them later than Clerics. That is a huge deficit.
Other 9th level caster classes like Witch or Shaman have similar advantages. So while I think Occultists can make decent healers, I think they are much better off just dipping into a few options that let them serve as a back-up for a more powerful healer.
As a side note, a Haunt Collector Occultist (Horror Adventures) who selects the Hierophant Spirit can add 2 points of healing to each target of their healing spells or Flesh Mend.
The class is a new class I have yet to play but want to. However after considering everything about it, it does have limits. The implements are it's main strengths rather then it's spells. Although it's spell selection is in some ways limited it has a wide selection both arcane and divine.
You are correct about the Implements being important. Many of the Focus Powers duplicate spell effects so clever selection of both can give you a wide range of options. It's a really fun class. I think it is now my favorite, largely because of the wide range of party roles that it can be built for.
In other threads people seem rudely down on full time healers in a group. The term Healbot keeps popping up. Except for one Star Wars RPG did I ever play a healbot. My healers usually buff and heal with combat a secondary role for him. Never in any case was my character useless. With the Pathfinder archtype I fulfill the role of locksmith. Granted people say you don't need one in a group it's more useful to have one.
I've never played with a 'healbot.' When I've seen people play Clerics, Witches, etc. they've always been able to contribute in other ways besides the healing.
It seems a lot of people dislike the base Cleric which I started playing long ago in first ed. Just worshipping a different deity made him different from any other cleric I played. Some things did stay the same mostly using a heavy shield and morning star for my weapon of choice. This is long before specialty priests.
Back in 1st edition I just loved playing Half-Elf Cleric/Fighter/Magic-Users. (For me, the Occultist is probably the Pathfinder class that comes closest to having that same feel. That is probably one of the reasons that I like it so much.)
But back in those days I did play a couple of pure Clerics, and I never felt like a human band-aid. There have always been plenty of non-mechanical ways to make characters interesting in RPG's.