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So several friends of mine and I are fencers, and I thought it would be cool to have an adventure where everyone is some child of a noble/learned in finesse swordplay type character. Possibly even a three-musketeers type thing. I'm curious about a few things, though,as far as a build for a finesse duelist goes.
1. Classes: Swashbuckler is the obvious answer as it uses actual swordplay-based things (such as parrying) and gets several of the must-haves for free (nimble, finesse, etc.). However, I know that duelist gets a few of those things as well, and that taking rogue until you can prestige can give you a few of those benefits ahead of time, plus a plethora of other useful abilities (such as sneak attack, trapfinding, uncanny dodge, etc.). So what would be the most optimal class/class combination to build a finesse-based precision fencer?
2. Feats: All of the normal finesse feats that I can think of are included as class abilities in the three classes listed above. I am curious if Paizo has any dex to damage feats (I know they are less lenient with that idea than WotC) or things that would help a finesse-focused character scale and not drop off after the early levels. I'm thinking stuff focused on crits, and I'm also curious about a called shot build (I know called shot can be pretty weak, but I feel like with the right build it could be an effective option for CC).
3. Equipment: Rapier is the go-to choice here, no questions asked. As far as armor goes, probably mithral something (eventually) so I could keep my dex bonus but have a viable AC and still not carry too much weight.
Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated!
1. Here are several options.
-Inspired Blade Swashbuckler is an obvious choice
-Kensai Magus if you want some magic with your fencing (very focused on crits)
-Unchained Rogue for the built in Dex to damage
-Swashtigator (Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1/Investigator x) is a popular option
2. There are several options for Dex to damage
-The Fencing Grace feat for the Swashbuckler options (terrible for Kensai since it won't work with Spell Combat)
-Unchained Rogues get Dex to damage from a Class Ability
-The Agile Weapon Special Ability for a Kensai
1. Here are several options.
-Inspired Blade Swashbuckler is an obvious choice
-Kensai Magus if you want some magic with your fencing
-Unchained Rogue for the built in Dex to damage
-Swashtigator (Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1/Investigator x) is a popular option2. There are several options for Dex to damage
-The Fencing Grace feat for the Swashbuckler options (terrible for Kensai since it won't work with Spell Combat)
-Unchained Rogues get Dex to damage from a Class Ability
-The Agile Weapon Special Ability for a Kensai
I recommend the Swashigator =)
Another option you folks have is Gestalt where one Side must be a Swashbuckler. That gives everyone the ability to Fence while the other side of Gestalt would be the Class they want to pair with it.
Might I add the Swashmerist
Inspired blade1/vexing daredevil Mesmerist x
Might I add the Swashmerist
Inspired blade1/vexing daredevil Mesmerist x
Interesting. I'm not very familiar with Mesmerists. Why that particular archetype?
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Virtous Bravo for a fencing paladin and daring champion cavalier are also good class/archetype combos to consider. A weapon master monk could give an interesting interpration.
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Interesting. I'm not very familiar with Mesmerists. Why that particular archetype?Might I add the Swashmerist
Inspired blade1/vexing daredevil Mesmerist x
It just fit the theme, it plays on feinting and dexterity based manouvers, giving your bonus feats for feinting and powers that trigger when you feint someone, like making an extra attack or blinding the person you're fighting or bonus on combat Manouvers. Eventually you get blur for a round when moving as well, which is nice.
The build would probably take fencing grace, manifold stare and deadly stare at which point you're kinda free to go where you like disarming or crit fishing or some such other build. Intimidate would probably work.
Might be something in Eldritch heritage worth taking for the swashmerist.
Interesting. I'm not very familiar with Mesmerists. Why that particular archetype?Might I add the Swashmerist
Inspired blade1/vexing daredevil Mesmerist x
It just fit the theme, it plays on feinting and dexterity based manouvers, giving your bonus feats for feinting and powers that trigger when you feint someone, like making an extra attack or blinding the person you're fighting or bonus on combat Manouvers. Eventually you get blur for a round when moving as well, which is nice.
The build would probably take fencing grace, manifold stare and deadly stare at which point you're kinda free to go where you like disarming or crit fishing or some such other build. Intimidate would probably work.
Ok, I see it now. The link from my search had taken me to the Cult Master at the top of the PRD page. That does look like a good match. I only make high Int builds so I sometimes forget that Inspired Blade also uses Cha for its Panache Pool.
So several friends of mine and I are fencers, and I thought it would be cool to have an adventure where everyone is some child of a noble/learned in finesse swordplay type character. Possibly even a three-musketeers type thing. I'm curious about a few things, though,as far as a build for a finesse duelist goes.
1. Classes: Swashbuckler is the obvious answer as it uses actual swordplay-based things (such as parrying) and gets several of the must-haves for free (nimble, finesse, etc.). However, I know that duelist gets a few of those things as well, and that taking rogue until you can prestige can give you a few of those benefits ahead of time, plus a plethora of other useful abilities (such as sneak attack, trapfinding, uncanny dodge, etc.). So what would be the most optimal class/class combination to build a finesse-based precision fencer?
2. Feats: All of the normal finesse feats that I can think of are included as class abilities in the three classes listed above. I am curious if Paizo has any dex to damage feats (I know they are less lenient with that idea than WotC) or things that would help a finesse-focused character scale and not drop off after the early levels. I'm thinking stuff focused on crits, and I'm also curious about a called shot build (I know called shot can be pretty weak, but I feel like with the right build it could be an effective option for CC).
3. Equipment: Rapier is the go-to choice here, no questions asked. As far as armor goes, probably mithral something (eventually) so I could keep my dex bonus but have a viable AC and still not carry too much weight.
Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated!
inspired blade Swashbuckler 5/Learned duelist 15
Inspired blade Swashbuckler 5 gets you the early access to improved critical and the best swashbuckler deeds. Learned duelist gets you access to advanced weapon training for your rapier (so you can up that d6 die size) Advanced armor training, and all your swashbuckler levels stack with the duelist levels for feat selection. It is a somewhat sub-par tactic, but Int for inspired blade + int for precise thrust is synergistic, and precise thrust has that "run them through!" feel of fencing.
Might I add the Swashmerist
Inspired blade1/vexing daredevil Mesmerist x
You've piqued my interest with this build as well, especially since I've been thinking about what to do with my vishkanya boon in PFS, so I'd be building with bonuses to Dex and Cha.
Is there a reason why Inspired Blade is especially useful in this build? I have a swashtigator who I really, really enjoy playing, but in that case there's a lot of synergy with the high Int. But it seems the swashmerist would be focused on Dex and Cha already, so pumping Int would make it pretty MAD. Am I missing something in the build?
Any other advice or insights on this build would be appreciated (and apologies to the OP if this is a bit of a derail).
Might I add the Swashmerist
Inspired blade1/vexing daredevil Mesmerist x
You've piqued my interest with this build as well, especially since I've been thinking about what to do with my vishkanya boon in PFS, so I'd be building with bonuses to Dex and Cha.
Is there a reason why Inspired Blade is especially useful in this build? I have a swashtigator who I really, really enjoy playing, but in that case there's a lot of synergy with the high Int. But it seems the swashmerist would be focused on Dex and Cha already, so pumping Int would make it pretty MAD. Am I missing something in the build?
Any other advice or insights on this build would be appreciated (and apologies to the OP if this is a bit of a derail).
I can't speak for Chromatic Durgon, but for me the advantage is the early access to so many goodies.
-Proficiency with rapiers, which Mesmerists don't get without using Racial options
-Free Weapon Finesse (or at least a close cousin)
-Free Weapon Focus (rapier) which a feat-starved, 3/4 BAB Mesmerist couldn't take until 3rd level.
That's the equivalent of two or three feats that are essential for a Dex based Rapier build, all at 1st level. So the dip allows you to take Fencing Grace right away while a pure Mesmerist is, at best, going to have to wait until 5th level to take it. Opportune Parry and Riposte is just icing on that Dex cake. Since the Inspired Blade uses both Int and Cha for Panache, you are correct that you don't really need Int for the build. But small boosts to Int eventually become relatively cheap and would let you get a little more Panache than a standard Swashbuckler.
As a force multiplier, have a Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 1/Bard (Arcane Duelist) X. Buff your merry band up with Inspire Courage, Haste, Heroism, Good Hope, Bladethirst and so on.
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Gisher is quite right, it allows you to go for fencing grace at level 1, level 3 take whatever, Improved initiative maybe, at 5 manifold stare, 7 deadly stare, level 8 take surprise strike your version of a full round action will be, feint, attack, surprise strike, 4D6+3+dex+enhancement. Or you could do other fun things like blinding them with your attack and you've left them, flat footed.
+ you can cast fun stuff like mirror image and vampiric touch. +tricks like false flanker and mesmeric mirror, which basically equates to a diminished contingency mirror image. +parry riposte. It's actually got some great defences.
I had forgotten that Inspired Blade gives you Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus at level 1, so that does make sense. I'm still sort of on the fence about giving up the ability to regain panache with killing blows (rather than just crits), but those two feats at first level are pretty juicy.
Over all, I think it sounds like a fun build. I had been thinking about a straight mesmerist, but this seems more interesting and very apt for a vishkanya, mesmerizing his foes and striking with snake-like speed! Thanks for the ideas and input.
Vishkanye is probably one of the best races for the build since mesmerists get Charisma to will saves anyway.
Also once you get shadow evocation you can use Battering Blast to deliver painful stares which is kewl, although you're playing PFS I think? So you probably won't get that high level.
But I guess that's good for the OP to know too
Vishkanye is probably one of the best races for the build ...
Discovered that vishkanya also have an alternate racial trait, Deceptive, that gives them +2 to Bluff, which will be nice for feinting.
This is for PFS, so I'm really only building to level 12 or so, as you said.
I'm starting to mess around with a build, wondering if you think Dex or Cha is the stat to boost most? I could start with a 17 in each and increase at the level bumps, but that's kind of a long game. I will be starting at level 2, for what that's worth.
Dex is probably the most important one since you don't have too many ways to boost accuracy and it is responsible for your AC, accuracy, initiative, damage and reflex saves. Use spells mostly for things that don't have saves, fairy fire, invisibility, mirror image, vampiric touch, invisibility sphere, ill omen, psychic reading, dimension door ... you get the idea. In fact dimensional agility might be a kewl idea for your level 11 feat.
Invigorate + burst of adrenaline is a nice combo
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Combat reflexes! That should be the level 3 feats I always forget that xD
1) weapon focus
1) sorta weapon finesse
1) fencing grace
3) combat reflexes
4) Improved feint
5) manifold stare
7) greater feint
7) deadly stare
9) -blank-
11) greater mesmerising feint
11) dimensional agility
That would be the build I'd go for
deadly stare - this is where the feat?
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Gah I did it again I always do this
It's called intense pain
Might be something in Eldritch heritage worth taking for the swashmerist.
Eldritch heritage (Ectoplasm Bloodline) for what would sneer at opponents.
Nothing is sticking out at me as particularly useful in the ectoplasm bloodline what is it you're after?
Also I realised you'd have to take intense pain at 9 because it requires mes level 7 so you couldn't take it at 7. Leaving 7 open.
Nothing is sticking out at me as particularly useful in the ectoplasm bloodline what is it you're after?
Also I realised you'd have to take intense pain at 9 because it requires mes level 7 so you couldn't take it at 7. Leaving 7 open.
Yes, I did not think that. At the 7 level, it is probably best to take
Reflexive Trick, to improve the tricks.
For the Swashbuckler dip, throw on the Noble Fencer archetype to dump the nigh useless Dodging Panache deed for an extra d6 to Bluff, Diplomacy Intimidate, or Sense Motive that explodes (rerolls) on a 6 a number of times up to your Cha mod.
This is an excellent suggestion! It works very well mechanically with the Vexing Daredevil's feint tactics, and quite nicely with the character's fluff, as he's shaping up to be an aristocratic sort who dresses lavishly (Extremely Fashionable trait) and seeks to restore nobility to its rightful place (Sovereign Court faction in PFS).
At the risk of further derailing from the OP's question (unless s/he is also interested in this build), I'd welcome any input into useful low-level spells for this build, or other traits that might play well with it. I've got a 16 Cha at the moment, so can possibly do spells that require a save from targets, but that will become a less viable option in the next couple of levels, as our resident Durgon has pointed out.
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off the top of my head for low level Mes spells.
1) Faerie Fire, Silent Image, Vanish, Invigorate, Burst of Adrenaline, Obscuring mist - are some of the best none save options.
2) Mirror Image, Levitate, Invisibility (if you re-train vanish), Silence
3) Vampire Touch, Sphere of Invisibility
for save options, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Suggestion, Charm Person/Monster, Inflict Pain, Jesters Jaunt, Vision of hell
off the top of my head for low level Mes spells.
1) Faerie Fire, Silent Image, Vanish, Invigorate, Burst of Adrenaline, Obscuring mist - are some of the best none save options.
2) Mirror Image, Levitate, Invisibility (if you re-train vanish), Silence
3) Vampire Touch, Sphere of Invisibilityfor save options, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Suggestion, Charm Person/Monster, Inflict Pain, Jesters Jaunt, Vision of hell
You can use the mental block. Еnemy forgot jump, talk in a foreign language, hit something that needs a special material to overcome, stop from being poisoned, stop a disease, dimension door, get an extra attack, resist spells, dodge spells...
Sacred Fist or just Cleric/Monk of Cayden can be a monster with a rapier and Crusader's Flurry. An Evangelist of Cayden can add Inspire Courage and Good Hope to their normal Cleric buffs, making Unchained Monk 1 + Evangelist of Cayden pretty lethal.
Even just 4 levels of Sacred Fist of Cayden plus Fate's Favored and Magical Knack grants a swift action +3/+3 Divine Favor buff and a bonus rapier flurry attack. Fencing Grace doesn't work with flurry, but if you must be DEX then Unchained Rogue 3 or a Weapon Master Fighter with Trained Grace works nicely.
Eldritch Knight + Strength Patron Witch + Inspired Blade can make a very deadly arcane fencer, since they have Divine Favor/Power, Heroism and Arcane Strike. Ditto a Pact Wizard for the same reason, and a Pact Wizard can also use the Knowledge is Power Arcane Discovery and the Foresight School to be a true CMB monster. Witch/EK can also use Quickened Ill Omen while in melee, which is pretty brutal.