I read a ton of guides and built a Cleric to be a summon build. But when I tried to give him his feats I couldn't because we are using the core and advanced players guide only, which don't have the good feats for summoning like sacred summons.
So I am starting over and looking for advice on what would be a good fun build using just those two books for source.
The reason for this limitation is we are using Fantasy Grounds and we only have these two books thus far.
Thanks for all advice...
Notes...
Lawful good or neutral good, I'm not good with evil.
I'm very rusty and this is my first campaign since 3.5 or before.
I am starting at level 5.. I played a diff cleric up to 5 that was a reach cleric with 1 channel which sucked at lower levels, but I get to rebuild now that we are 5 and learning.
Role play wise I will build my story around my character, so other than the alignment I am open.
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I have had success playing a cleric of Cayden Cailean (CG deity). I prize mobility in combat, so I took the Travel domain, which gives +10 movement speed, plus access to the spell Longstrider. This character is currently level 3, in the PFS Core campaign.
STR: 17 (incr. at lvl 4)
DEX: 11
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 15 (incr. at lvl 8)
CHA: 10
Domains: Strength, Travel
Traits: Birthmark, Tomb Raider
Feats: Level 1 - Toughness, Rapid Reload*
Level 3: Step Up
If you want to be a cleric who wades into melee, you will probably want to pick up the feats Shield Focus, Power Attack, and Heavy Armor Proficiency somewhere down the line.
*I probably wouldn't recommend this feat. I took it so I can use a light crossbow without using a move action to load it. Improved Initiative probably would have been a better choice.
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First you should decide caster cleric or combat cleric. Don't try to do both.
Yes. My cleric's spells are mostly for aiding myself or allies. I avoid spells that allow saving throws because my relatively low wisdom means a low save DC.
Also, while clerics are good at healing and status removal, that should not be your primary focus. Healing in combat is usually not the most efficient use of resources.
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Sugest other cleric posibilities:
Traditional caster/channeler
F10 D10 C14 I10 S16(18) C14
Feats selective channel (human extra channel) alignament channel, quick channel
Skills Perception, religión diplomacy
Domains anyone
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Tank cleric F12 D13 C14 I10 S14 (16) C14
Feats heavy armor, dodge, shield especialist, toughness...
Looks gods and choice one template nice to tour roleplau
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Archer cleric...
F14 D14(16) c10 i10 s14 c14
Point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, deadly aim. Deity erastil (bow weapon)
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Summoner cleric
F10 D14 C14 I10S14(16) C14
Spell focus conjuration
Augmented summoning
Improved iniciative, thougness, iron will
Linguistics up to talk with summons
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If you want to play a battle cleric, one thing you might consider is starting with one level of barbarian. That would give you +4 hit points at level 1, martial weapon proficiency, a few rounds of rage, and BAB 1 at first level, which opens up more feat choices. The down sde is the hit to spell casting.
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To battlecleric i think multiclass is not an option (i played a barb/cleric and when i understand what while enrage cant cast spells i understand not a good idea)
Maybe fighter or another to feats... Maybe because 1 level of cast worth so much than lots of feats.
To battle cleric i will go or shield+sword iomedaean (or hammer torag) or 2 handed reach with shelyn (or greatsword gorum)
f16(18+1=19) d12 c13 i10 w14 c10
Power attack heavy armor weapon focus toughness
Or battle chabbeler
F14 D10 C14 I10 W14 C14 (race to str or wis)
Heavy armor selective channel quicl channel thougness or iron will...or power atrack or...
Weapon+shi
Here's a melee build similar to one I played recently. I cannot say enough good things about Travel domain. (30 ft move in heavy armor *and* ignore difficult terrain. Oh, I can sometimes fly too? Cayden, you really do care!)
Human 5th level Cleric
20 pt buy
Deity : Cayden Cailean
Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 14
Feats: Combat Casting, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Power Attack, Selective Channeling
Domains: Strength, Travel
Stat boosts: 1st level: Str; 4th level: Wis
Skills to taste
I played it as a non-reach build. Selective channel is still useful at this level though you'll notice its start becoming more of a post combat function as your spell options open up). You're pretty tanky, especially with a heavy shield, and while power attacking isn't super-reliable yet, I like having it as a character nears +4 BAB. If you've mastered the 5-foot step, you could likely swap Combat Casting for Scribe Scroll; the cleric spell list is full of condition-removal spells like lesser restoration that are great to stockpile.
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If you are a "low experienced player", please do not make a summoning build. -- It's like trying to fly an airliner when you only know what five or six of the hundreds of shiny buttons in the cockpit do. Not gonna end pretty.
But, being a "reach cleric" (see guides), otoh, is a lot of fun (as is the Travel domain).
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If you are a "low experienced player", please do not make a summoning build. -- It's like trying to fly an airliner when you only know what five or six of the hundreds of shiny buttons in the cockpit do.
I concur, but for a different reason.
Clerics are pretty good at what they do "out of the box". You get all the spells you need and can hold your own in combat. Playing a "build" will needlessly paint you into a corner; instead take whatever race, deity, feats and skills that you think are fun, and thus gain a lot more varied experience in the Cleric class.Get out there, and enjoy playing your character. It'll work out just fine, trust me.
Pick either a deity you like, or a couple of domains you like that go together with some deity you can stand.
Decide on a focus -- archery, melee combat, support spellcasting, or offensive spellcasting. Any of them will work and be fun, but you want your stats and feats to support your focus.
Archery: (maybe) Erastil as a deity for longbow as a favorite weapon, Wis > Dex > other stats, pick up archery feats and self-buffing spells (bless, divine favor, prayer, etc. Stand back and shoot, fix up the party after the battle is over, and/or cast long-duration buff spells before battle. Long-range offensive spells might be worth looking into.
Melee combat: Str > Wis > Con > other stats (you're mostly buffing yourself so you don't need to worry about saving throws), maybe Shelyn as deity (favorite weapon glaive), or Gorum (chaotic but BIG into combat), feats are Power Attack, (maybe) Weapon Focus. Cast a good buff spell to start then fix up the party after the battle.
Support spellcasting: Wis > Dex (for inititaive) > Con > other stats: cast long-duration buffs before combat, cast party support spells during combat (bless, prayer, anything that boosts your party's effective tactics, maybe some spells that will mess with the enemy too -- if so you want your Wis to be as high as possible to boost save DCs + give you extra spell slots). Maybe plink with a bow if you have no effective spells to cast. Feats: Improved Initiative, Reach Spell (cast touch spells from farther way), Extend Spell (or maybe as a metamagic rod), Scribe Scroll (to have lots of scrolls tucked away so you can fix any problem that arises). Maybe Craft Wand so you can make wands of the spells you cast every combat (bless, prayer...)
Offensive spellcasting: Wis > Con (you'll be a target) > Dex > other stats. Figure out what kind of foes you'll be fighting today and pray for spells that mess them up -- one of the cleric's great strengths is spell flexibility: the whole list is always available as long as you have time to pray. Get Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for your main offensive school. Focus on spells that debuff enemies (if you want to just blast their hit points away, play a sorceror) and make them easy prey for your friends.
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I feel like people are ignoring the Core rulebook and Advanced Player's Guide only part of the post. For example, Quick channel is from Ultimate Magic. Personally, I feel like the really good options for offensive caster and ranged cleric aren't available with these two books, and either the melee cleric, or support cleric are the best options available. Not saying you can't play as those style of character, just that some of the better options are missing. Meanwhile, most of what a melee cleric will use can be found in the core rulebook.
I played a summon focused, core only cleric for about 12 levels, and it was great!
There are two "required" feats for a summoner: Spell Focus Conjuration (prerequisite) and Augment Summons. That is about it in the feat department.
I chose the travel domain, which is great, because it gives you +10 speed, and access to a variety of amazing spells, like Dimension Door and Teleport. The thing that made the build however was the luck domain. Luck domain gives you the "Touch of Luck" ability. That allows you to touch someone, and they get to roll twice every time they roll a d20 for 1 round. Attacks, crit confirmations, saves, skill checks, etc. - AMAZING!
The other thing that helped the build was a minimal investment in healing. Everyone will say that healing in combat is bad and other stuff, but that is totally contrary to my experience. I have found that healing in combat is useful, effective and always welcome by the other party members.
One or two posters also mentioned that summoning is bad if you are not experienced. This is often true, but by following a few simple rules, you can avoid 90% of problems.
1) Only have 1 summon spell active at a time.
2) Have the stats for any creature you summon with the celestial template and augment added.
3) Make an effort to summon the same creature in most circumstances, and get to know how it operates. As you level up, you can use a single spell to summon multiple versions of the same creature.
4) Work with other party members to help their abilities, and not get in their way.
5) Don't worry about being optimal with all your actions and your summons actions. I would often just summon in the first round, then hit other party members with wands of Protection from evil, bulls strength, bears endurance, or cure wounds. Also, if you summon 1d4+1 creatures, things like channel energy become very effective.
With my cleric, I would summon an augmented, celestial wolverine. While that may seem weak to drop into a combat involving a 5th level party, take a look at what they look like with all the buffs, and bonuses added.
Base creature:
hp 22
Melee 2 claws +4 (1d6+2), bite +4 (1d4+2)
augmented, celestial raging smiting wolverine:
hp 36
Melee 2 claws +8 (1d6+9), bite +8 (1d4+9)
One final note: Summons are NOT all created equal. Many have abilities that are highly situational. Even from the same list, for example, summon monster 6, there are dire bears and dire tigers. It is tough to find a reason the tiger isn't just better in every way.
In my experience clerics are bad combatants, but that might be partially the DM with his high AC NPCs.
Nonetheless, there are several disadvantages to melee:
- you have to cast buffs, or you will suck
- casting buffs takes time and the combat buffs are typically shortlived
- if you cannot prepare at your leisure, buffing means you miss the first half of the battle, since those take usually 4-6 rounds
- statwise a combat cleric is MAD, and you need STR for melee; with the requirements for WIS and CON, you will be mediocre overall
- you miss some basic feats (heavy armor & martial weapons, the latter can be gotten with a good deity)
- clerics are suffering from having no bonus feats and therefore have less combat versatility
You can get the AC and HP, but the real problem is the damage, since the cleric lacks features to enhance it.
It might be a good idea to make a one-level dip into a martial class for the proficiencies and a bonus feat. Starting as a martial also fulfills the requirement for Power Attack, which you cannot get at level 1 as a cleric. That would take care of several problems at the cost of one cleric level.
If you do go melee (or ranged), pick WIS 16 and raise only STR/DEX afterwards. If your campaign is going past level 11, raise WIS to 18.
I tried an offensive divine caster, but it doesn't work very well the higher it gets, since the NPCs start to save most of your spells later on. As much as I dislike summoning, it might be the best option here.
Bolstering the party is what clerics do best. Anything that lets your martials get more attacks in is worth more than what you can do in terms of damage. When our paladin gets going, he dishes out like 500 damage per round, and there is no way I could compete with that, or even make a worthwhile contribution. The fighter is not quite that strong (no smite evil), but still in a different league. In hindsight, Blessing of Fervor is my most damaging spell, especially combined with communal Airwalk.
The trouble with spellcasting foes is that nearly all casters have access to Dispel Magic and its upgrades, which makes buffs unreliable. This should be kept in mind past the lower levels.
While many people will swear by their wands of CLW and deny that healing is effective, I like to see that past the low levels. The more attacks get in, the more crits will happen, and then you need real healing during battle, or you lose. Therefore you need to keep some heals at hand, and prepare something to keep crits at bay. The feat Divine Interference is unfortunately in Ultimate Magic, but the easiest tool to use (at 11+). There is Shield Other, but that will not work so well, if you are in melee too. Anyway, that is the only thing you have to fend off massive damage from your martials.
The other danger besides crits are area damage spells, since they will reduce everyones HP at once, making follow-up nukes or melee attacks more dangerous. Your only effective counter is unfortunately also in the Ultimate books: the communal spells. You simply cannot buff a party against fire damage with single target spells, since you lack the number.
And finally there is a large problem: the battlefield itself. You are often not next to all of your friends, but they will be divided across the board. There is also difficult terrain, often created by enemy spells. And maybe your DM likes to play with light levels and the resulting penalties.
So if you go into melee, you will have trouble rescuing your friends, when the need arises. You have no movement powers, unless you have picked the Travel domain (which is nice), so don't get too far from your friends. Second, in melee you are handicapped when casting , since defensive casting is only safe for spells of two levels under your highest spell level (on average), so Combat Casting is good.
And about combat feats: when you pick one, make sure it will give you an advantage. Power Attack without high STR is useless, and Combat Reflexes without DEX even more so.
I'd suggest a Neutral Good cleric of Desna (CG) for Liberation and Travel domain.
Travel domain, as many others have mentioned, is all kinds of awesome.
Liberation gets an amazing ability at 8th level which allows you to ignore a massive amount of nasty status conditions on both yourself and your allies.
These are two of the strongest domains available, if you're willing to be a neutral good cleric worshipping a chaotic good deity.
I ended up going with a mix build, since we are using a 25 point buy system, and even though many of the Summoning Feats are not available, I still felt I could get value out of Summoning, and playing as a Caster.
I went with the following build. Our DM is letting us rebuild every 5 levels, which came into consideration here, as I can move more towards a caster only Cleric at that time. This is our first campaign between 6 of us real life friends, so he is being very forgiving.
LEVEL: 5 Cleric of Desna
STR: 16
DEX: 14
STA: 14
INT: 7
WIS: 20
CHA: 7
FEATS:Combat Reflexes, Improved INitiative, Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning.
SKILLS (2 per lvl): Perception (5), Knowledge Religion (5)
DOMAINS: Luck & Travel
TRAITS: Reactionary +2 Initiative, Eyes and Ears of the City +1 Perception, and Perception is a Class Skill.
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Previously this build had +2 Str and -2 Wisdom, had power attack, and had Acrobatics trained, and was played as a Reach Combat Cleric. So I feel I can still play him this way, but without staying in melee range as his AC is only 16 with a Mithryl Breastplate. I chose not to go heavy armor yet due to the penalties, specifically to casting.
He will still be using his Longspear, but next rebuild I will go with a shield and a one hander.
SOOO, Any thing I am missing here? I know maintaining the melee capability is a little costly to other stats/skills/strengths, but am I missing anything big?
To battlecleric i think multiclass is not an option (i played a barb/cleric and when i understand what while enrage cant cast spells i understand not a good idea)
Just wanted to comment on this bit.
Yes, a cleric can't cast spells WHILE raging, but if you're a combat cleric you shouldn't really be casting spells after you get yourself into the fight.So fight starts, you cast any buff you want and then go fight, once fighting you rage, and then after combat you can cast spells to heal everyone.
so unless you have a good example of a spell you'd want to cast after hitting guys for a few rounds, and that situation come up moderately often, I don't think that rage would be a problem.
I'm personally not a fan of dumping Int and Cha, but it looks like a strong character.
Also, I'm assuming that you are human, as you have an extra feat and an extra 5 skill points. What other types of characters are in the party with you? Is it the GM and 5 players?
I'm a little hesitant about the longspear/combat reflexes stuff. The trouble is that you have an average chance to hit, and will do 1d8+4 damage. That's OK, but in a 25 point buy campaign, an average full BAB class like fighter or barbarian are going to be doing 1d12+12 or even more. Now, it's not a competition, but you are already behind, and after a few more levels, it is going to be even more of a discrepancy. The trouble is that both melee cleric and summing cleric both require a round or two to cast in order to be very effective. For melee, you need to cast either divine favor, bulls strength, divine power, righteous might, etc. For summoning, you need to cast your highest, or second highest level summing spell. I would be worried that you are going to spend the first half of every combat casting spells, and that doesn't even include combats that require you to cast a spell like resist energy or cure wounds or delay poison, or just move around a lot. With that said, I found that after summoning, I often did not know what to do with my standard action, so being able to poke with a longspear might not be bad, but there may be other options.
A few things to keep in mind:
You seem to have at least 5 PCs in the group. Channel energy might be very effective if you are healing half the party and a summoned creature.
Celestial creatures no longer understand common, so if you want to give commands and communicate, (which you do) you will need to speak their language. I also found that it was good to know a few other languages so I could communicate with elementals, etc. To do this you will need ranks in linguistics - 1 rank = 1 extra language known.
The celestial template is different then it was in 3.5. Read up on it and think a bit about the implications of the differences - for example, I think the creatures remain "animals" rather then becoming outsiders like they did in 3.5.
Scribe scroll, craft wondrous item, and craft wand are amazing for clerics. You might find that you get more mileage out of a wand of spiritual weapon or something then all of your investments into melee.
Summoning is a full round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You can split a full round action into two standard actions. Generally this isn't needed, but it is a nifty trick to know about.
While casting, you will not be able to take attacks of opportunity, and you spells can be disrupted. Oddly, I found that having a low initiative was sometimes helpful for allowing the other party members to get into position and figure out what to summon. Basically, you have a round from when you announce you are casting, then right before the creature appears, you can decide what it is.
The nice thing about Pathfinder is that you can really customize your characters, especially clerics. You can be the face of the party, you can blast, buff, debuff, heal, battlefield control, etc. You will be most effective by finding synergy with the other party members rather then trying to do everything yourself. What rolls are already filled, and what is needed in the party?
EDIT:
One error I did note:
A breastplate and a 14 dex should give you an AC of 18. At this level you should probably have +1 armor. If you have a +1 buckler or small shield, that will bring you up to a 20. Protection from Evil will also give you an additional +2 as well as many other benefits.
Also, if you get Heavy Armor Proficiency, you won't face ANY problems with spell casting. (Spell failure due to armor is for arcane casters like wizards and sorcerers, it does not apply to divine casters like clerics and druids.
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Having played melee a oracle and a cleric. I find people still look to you to cast mid battle. Dispel magic, mass airwalk, versions of protecting from spells, align weapon communal, invisibility purge etc. I am normally a proponent of dipping if you want to be better in melee I would dip medium not barbarian on a divine caster but with your books no dip should be required.
Diving casting requires a lot of reacting to events associated with the spell. Proactive casting is obviously better but I rarely see perfect planing at my tables.
What penalties to casting for heavy armor? There is not arcane spell failure for divine spells.
I would not recommend battle cleric at all..... the only 'combatish' cleric build I would use is one that just 'tanks' and doesnt worry about directly hitting stuff.....
Dwarf + Heavy armour proficiency + summon/cast is about as 'battle cleric' I would go.... grab yourself a Tower shield - who cares if you have proficiency!!
Even without sacred summons....a dward cleric of Iomedae with Heroism and Archon (Good) domains + Steel Soul/Glory Of Old + Heavy Armour prof rocks.... and I've seen the sacred summon version at a PFS do too..... it was an experienced group and the other PCs definitely raised several eyebrows!
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Human Fighter 1/Cleric 4 (25 pt buy) All Core Rulebook
Why Fighter?
+2 hp at first level
Martial Weapons
Heavy Armor (does not cost you a feat from your level)
Extra Feat (actually gained 2 feats because your heavy armor was free)
You really lose nothing at level 20 as a 19th level cleric is essentially the same as a 20th.
- First level you get Power Attack/Cleave/Improved Init (use a greatsword)
- Second Level you take Travel and one of these three domains Fire/Madness/Liberation
- Third level you take Selective Channeling
- Fifth level you take Greater Cleave
- (Looking forward) seventh level you take Vital Strike
Stats
Str 18 (+2 race) (try to raise this stat whenever possible, multiples of 4 starting at 14 [ex. 14, 18, 22, etc] are your best numbers)
Dex 10 (you will want 14 dex eventually [magical fullplate max], try to get it through magical items)
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 15 (you will need 19 wis eventually)
Cha 14 (+1 lvl)
Again, try to increase your dex. Having first initiative will help you a ton because you will want to buff yourself with a spell before you enter melee. You will hit like a truck. Heal with channels, spot debuff by using a 5ft step before casting, if you go Fire domain - enjoy dropping a handful of fire seeds on a square, stepping back, and watching whatever was in that square turn to ash.
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Doh, off by 1 on the Vital Strike. You will have to wait until 9th level to be doing 4d6+15, not counting buffs or magic damage. And at that time you can have Longstrider up for 9 hours, practically the day. Which means your normal move is 35 in fullplate armor. It will be interesting when you are charging 70 ft and smacking stuff for 29 average (19-39).