Hi all, my first time ever playing a Witch. Will be a debuff Witch focusing a bit more on necromancy spells to debuff my enemies. Looking for recommendations on what you would change on this build. Here's what I have so far:
1) Extra Hex
1) Extra Hex
3) Accursed Hex
5) Spell Focus (Necromancy)
7) Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
9) Quicken Spell
9) Heighten Spell
11) split hex
13) (some metamagic feat I want to get spell perfection)
15) Spell Perfection
17) ?
The hexes I will select are Evil Eye, Cackle, Misfortune, Slumber, Flight, Ice Tomb, Agony and not sure about the last couple.
Note: I don't have Persistent Spell because I have Misfortune with accursed Hex and also I have Ill Omen
If you're getting heighten spell and spell perfection you might find preferred spell handy. It's not a metamagic feat so you'd need to drop something to make room - maybe accursed hex. You'd have enough options that throwing the same hex twice against a single opponent isn't something you should want to do often.
Assuming that the spell you'll be perfecting is a necromancy spell (major curse?) then piercing spell might be the most useful 3rd metamagic you can get. Spell resistance applies to curses.
If you're getting heighten spell and spell perfection you might find preferred spell handy. It's not a metamagic feat so you'd need to drop something to make room - maybe accursed hex. You'd have enough options that throwing the same hex twice against a single opponent isn't something you should want to do often.
Assuming that the spell you'll be perfecting is a necromancy spell (major curse?) then piercing spell might be the most useful 3rd metamagic you can get. Spell resistance applies to curses.
Piercing spell looks great, just wondering would I need it for the Invoker archetype, he treats other creatures as if their damage reduction and spell resistance were 5 lower at 8th level.
I feel like Persistent spell > Heighten Spell
your third should be dazing spell, pick something for dazing spell as your perfect spell. Its the best way for a Witch to deal with mindless creatures and things immune to mind effecting. I chose Ice Storm. Some people recommend black tentacles but thats not the best in my opinion because DR10+ pretty much stumps it.
Also I think Agony doesn't bring much to the table if you have Ice Tomb and slumber already. I would consider Retribution for the cool factor.
For grand hexes I think life giver and forced reincarnation are fun (particularly good as there is no better way to beat an ancient Dragon than to turn it into a young dragon.)
I feel like Persistent spell > Heighten Spell
your third should be dazing spell, pick something for dazing spell as your perfect spell. Its the best way for a Witch to deal with mindless creatures and things immune to mind effecting. I chose Ice Storm. Some people recommend black tentacles but thats not the best in my opinion because DR10+ pretty much stumps it.
Also I think Agony doesn't bring much to the table if you have Ice Tomb and slumber already. I would consider Retribution for the cool factor.
For grand hexes I think life giver and forced reincarnation are fun (particularly good as there is no better way to beat an ancient Dragon than to turn it into a young dragon.)
Hmm interesting. The campaign is CotCT. Would we be facing many mindless creatures?
I feel like Persistent spell > Heighten Spell
your third should be dazing spell, pick something for dazing spell as your perfect spell. Its the best way for a Witch to deal with mindless creatures and things immune to mind effecting. I chose Ice Storm. Some people recommend black tentacles but thats not the best in my opinion because DR10+ pretty much stumps it.
Also I think Agony doesn't bring much to the table if you have Ice Tomb and slumber already. I would consider Retribution for the cool factor.
For grand hexes I think life giver and forced reincarnation are fun (particularly good as there is no better way to beat an ancient Dragon than to turn it into a young dragon.)
I should state my intended spells so that way it may be easier to suggest metamagic feats or other feats. I chose these for flavor and also effectiveness. Without having the list stretch too long here it is up to level 5.
Cause Fear - level 1
Ill Omen - level 1
Enlarge Person - level 1
Mount - level 1
Ray of Sickening - level 1
Blindness/Deafness - level 2
Touch of Idiocy - level 2
Silence - level 2 (patron spell)
Lipstitch - level 2
Hold person - level 2
Spectral Hand - level 2
Glitterdust - level 2
Mad Hallucination - level 2
Scare - level 2
Bestow Curse - level 3
Babble - level 3
Pugwampis Grace - level 3
Barrow Haze - level 3
Haste - level 3 (patron spell)
Ray of Exhaustion - level 3
Stinking Cloud - level 3
Fear - level 4
Confusion - level 4
Phantasmal Killer - level 4
Enervate - level 4
Debilitating Portent - level 4
Crushing Despair - level 4
Fleshworm infestation - level 4
Spite - level 4
Major Curse - level 5
Feeblemind - level 5
Dominate Person - level 5
Hi all, my first time ever playing a Witch. Will be a debuff Witch focusing a bit more on necromancy spells to debuff my enemies. Looking for recommendations on what you would change on this build. Here's what I have so far:
1) Extra Hex
1) Extra Hex
3) Accursed Hex
5) Spell Focus (Necromancy)
7) Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
9) Quicken Spell
9) Heighten Spell
11) split hex
13) (some metamagic feat I want to get spell perfection)
15) Spell Perfection
17) ?The hexes I will select are Evil Eye, Cackle, Misfortune, Slumber, Flight, Ice Tomb, Agony and not sure about the last couple.
Note: I don't have Persistent Spell because I have Misfortune with Accursed Hex and also I have Ill Omen
I would put Quicken off till Level 13. At Level 9 you only have 5th level spells. There are a lot of powerful spells at that level. Quicken Ill Omen is good but not worth the rush. I find that level 11-13 is a good time to pick up Quicken Spell.
Dazing and Rime spell are your control/debuff meta magics. I am a fan of Rime as it does not Tick the GM off as much. Entangled is a brutal condition as well and a +1 Meta magic.
What spell are you going for perfection on? That really is what should decide your level 13 metamagic
Heighten spell is meh on prepared casters(excluding certain cheese ofc). If your going to raise a spell by 1 level then focused spell is a better boost, can have cost reduction applied, and is doubled by spell perfection. If your doing 2 levels not only is there usually an on level spell that is just a better version, but persistent spell offers more of a boost
Fly hex isn't worth it imho because you can just cast Overland Flight to be always flying - much better for action economy.
Why do you have 2 feats at 9?
Piercing is really helpful once the bad guys start having lots of SR.
Additional Traits: Magical Lineage & Wayang Spell Hunter let's you cast Quickened I'll Omen as a 3rd level Spell (or use with some other spell for equal fun)
Reach Spell is a handy metamagic for a melee averse witch. You have some good touch spells.
Pump your INT as high as possible.
Also, from Level 8 the Charm hex is great and gives you a nice contribution in social situations.
Fortune hex saved our party a few times when it was absolutely essential that the main melee character not fail a save.
Aura of Purity can also be very helpful.
9th level feats are typo, its one or the other
What spell are you going for perfection on? That really is what should decide your level 13 metamagic
Heighten spell is meh on prepared casters(excluding certain cheese ofc). If your going to raise a spell by 1 level then focused spell is a better boost, can have cost reduction applied, and is doubled by spell perfection. If your doing 2 levels not only is there usually an on level spell that is just a better version, but persistent spell offers more of a boost
I'm not sure I'm really new, I guess what I'm hoping for u guys tell me with my spell selection what feats would suit me best. I really like these spells for flavor. I don't need spell perfection if it doesn't make sense.
Spell perfection is amazing, but it comes very late. I chose Enervation for my Witch's spell perfection, but you'll have lots of time to see what spell suits your play style before you get there.
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Spell perfection always makes sense. Its the holy grail for casters. You have a good selection of spells. Didn't notice you were new at all. Just looking at your list you have a wide variety but most are save or suck. A good menu would be Quicken + pick 2: focused, persistent, dazing, piercing. Grab rods of whatever is left over. These will work with most of your spell selection. If once you get closer to lv13 you have found you really like a spell that isn't save or die(IE: enervation) you might need to reconsider. In that example Maximized enervation is lovely
I should note I don't have many battlefield control spells because we will have an alchemist on our team who will be supplying all that. That's why I chose many SoS spells :)
If you're getting heighten spell and spell perfection you might find preferred spell handy. It's not a metamagic feat so you'd need to drop something to make room - maybe accursed hex. You'd have enough options that throwing the same hex twice against a single opponent isn't something you should want to do often.
Assuming that the spell you'll be perfecting is a necromancy spell (major curse?) then piercing spell might be the most useful 3rd metamagic you can get. Spell resistance applies to curses.
Avr great advice, I think Major Curse is the one I should go with. Would you apply Piercing Spell to it as the only metamagic feat I can apply to it? As an Invoker do you think I should also get Piercing Spell or would it be overkill? Is there another metamagic feat I could apply to Major Curse that could also work very well?
You're going to want Spell Penetration and/or some other way to overcome SR by level 9 at the latest.
As an Invoker is the Spell Penetration I get as a class skill enough?
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I am not sure, but I think that, as an Invoker, you cannot get Extra Hex until level 3.
this is correct
But Also he is correct the Invoker really does not need Spell pen for 2 reasons.
1) Class ability
2) Can switch to Hexes and get around SR
There is also D. Essences that give a bonus to spell Pen and is pretty darn cheap.
I am not sure, but I think that, as an Invoker, you cannot get Extra Hex until level 3.
Thats a great essence will definitely be buying that and using it for bosses. Ya, our GM has house ruled the hexes :)
This is a question for anyone, according to my spell selection above what would be the best meta magic feats for my hero to select?
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Avr great advice, I think Major Curse is the one I should go with. Would you apply Piercing Spell to it as the only metamagic feat I can apply to it? As an Invoker do you think I should also get Piercing Spell or would it be overkill? Is there another metamagic feat I could apply to Major Curse that could also work very well?If you're getting heighten spell and spell perfection you might find preferred spell handy. It's not a metamagic feat so you'd need to drop something to make room - maybe accursed hex. You'd have enough options that throwing the same hex twice against a single opponent isn't something you should want to do often.
Assuming that the spell you'll be perfecting is a necromancy spell (major curse?) then piercing spell might be the most useful 3rd metamagic you can get. Spell resistance applies to curses.
Quicken Spell is the other metamagic you'd be able to apply, of course. So long as you don't pick a spell higher than 5th level to perfect that'd be true.
SR is often ~ CR+11. If you're fighting something where its CR = your level then that means without bonuses you need to roll 11+ on the d20. If you invoke the bridge aspect you get +2 to +10 on that roll depending on level, so it's about automatic from 16th level. If you're fighting something with CR above your level - a boss or something - then it stops being automatic even at that level, likewise vs. something with unusually high SR. Piercing spell isn't a waste even at high levels because of this IMO.
On the spells, you probably want either frigid touch or vampiric touch to load in your spite spell. I'd drop scare for frigid touch probably. Note that those are the minimum spells you'll get, you can learn more from scrolls or other witches.
On the spells, you probably want either frigid touch or vampiric touch to load in your spite spell. I'd drop scare for frigid touch probably. Note that those are the minimum spells you'll get, you can learn more from scrolls or other witches.
I just noticed Witch's don't get Frigid Touch, would Chill Touch be a suitable alternative?
what are your thoughts on Varisian Tattoo instead of Heighten Spell or something to enhance my Necromancy further? Is it a good feat?
Chill touch isn't really suitable for loading in a spite spell. The spite spell only triggers once, chill touches thing is that it can trigger multiple times. Frigid touch + spite (which you can't get, you're right) can interrupt a full attack by making the enemy trying to do so staggered. Vampiric touch + spite does some damage and gives you some temporary hit points to help survive further hits. You are going to want vampiric touch IMO.
Varisian tattoo - I'm not sure how many witch necromantic spells depend on caster level much. Sure there's vampiric touch which adds 1d6 damage per 2 caster levels, and it adds 1 to penetrate SR on any necromancy spell, but I can't think of more than that off the top of my head. If there's no more than that I don't think it's worth the feat.
Chill touch isn't really suitable for loading in a spite spell. The spite spell only triggers once, chill touches thing is that it can trigger multiple times. Frigid touch + spite (which you can't get, you're right) can interrupt a full attack by making the enemy trying to do so staggered. Vampiric touch + spite does some damage and gives you some temporary hit points to help survive further hits. You are going to want vampiric touch IMO.
Varisian tattoo - I'm not sure how many witch necromantic spells depend on caster level much. Sure there's vampiric touch which adds 1d6 damage per 2 caster levels, and it adds 1 to penetrate SR on any necromancy spell, but I can't think of more than that off the top of my head. If there's no more than that I don't think it's worth the feat.
Ya sounds like I should pass on the tattoo. Does maximized spell make a good fit for my selection of spells? Seems like it could be ok with vampiric touch are there many others?
Ya sounds like I should pass on the tattoo. Does maximized spell make a good fit for my selection of spells? Seems like it could be ok with vampiric touch are there many others?Chill touch isn't really suitable for loading in a spite spell. The spite spell only triggers once, chill touches thing is that it can trigger multiple times. Frigid touch + spite (which you can't get, you're right) can interrupt a full attack by making the enemy trying to do so staggered. Vampiric touch + spite does some damage and gives you some temporary hit points to help survive further hits. You are going to want vampiric touch IMO.
Varisian tattoo - I'm not sure how many witch necromantic spells depend on caster level much. Sure there's vampiric touch which adds 1d6 damage per 2 caster levels, and it adds 1 to penetrate SR on any necromancy spell, but I can't think of more than that off the top of my head. If there's no more than that I don't think it's worth the feat.
As metamagics go Empower > Maximize.
But neither is worth taking in your build as the Spells don't do damage but debuff.
Debuff meta-magics: Persistent, Rime, Dazing, Echoing, Heighten
You can buy a Lesser Empower Rod in the late game. Empowered Lightning Bolt sometimes can soften up mooks so they are easily finished up. I used it on my witch and when ever I had enemies lined up or who were vulnerable to lightning I would light them up with the Rod. I had a rod by 11th level. On average I was doing 53 damage or more to multiple targets. I typically prepared 2 a day and an Aggressive Thundercloud spell to use with the rod. The Later game the spell slots are more expendable than earlier in the game.
Ya good point, dazing sounds good but I will be hard pressed to get two more metamagic feats to eventually get Spell Perfection. Maybe I won't get Spell Perfection after all . Persistent spell is sort of obsolete with Ill Omen/Misfortune in my arsenault. I could fit in Rime just need to select more cold spells. Which spells do you suggest I use Heighten Spell on?
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Ya good point, dazing sounds good but I will be hard pressed to get two more metamagic feats to eventually get Spell Perfection. Maybe I won't get Spell Perfection after all . Persistent spell is sort of obsolete with Ill Omen/Misfortune in my arsenault. I could fit in Rime just need to select more cold spells. Which spells do you suggest I use Heighten Spell on?
Depends on which spells you use the most of. You have quite the spread in the list and feats you chose. I was listing the majority of your options, not that you have to pick any other them.
I hardly ever use heighten but it is a way to increase the DC of lower level business spells so your higher level spells can be a utility like Overland Flight. Heighten Glitterdust is useful...Heightened Persistent Glitterdust is just brutal without a need for a 1 round set up of Hexes.
Really I think you would be better off with a build like:
1) Extra Hex (your DM has house-ruled for you...grab evil eye ASAP)
1) Improved Initiative
3) Rime Spell (Hello Snowball, Flurry of Snowballs, Ice Spears, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold my friends.)
5) Spell Focus (Necromancy, Enchantment or Conjuration)
7) Persistent Spell
9) Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy, Enchantment or Conjuration)
11) Split Hex
13) Dazing Spell
15) Quicken Spell
Hexes:
Evil Eye, Cackle, Slumber, Misfortune (and if you must) Flight
Major:
Ice Tomb, Retribution
Accursed Hex is a good feat...But lots of fights are over before you can keep targeting the same person...not to mention you have other hexes to throw at them. Evil Eye is guaranteed as long as they can be affected by it, Cackle to keep it up. I think it almost is a wasted feat for you.
Ya good point, dazing sounds good but I will be hard pressed to get two more metamagic feats to eventually get Spell Perfection. Maybe I won't get Spell Perfection after all . Persistent spell is sort of obsolete with Ill Omen/Misfortune in my arsenault. I could fit in Rime just need to select more cold spells. Which spells do you suggest I use Heighten Spell on?Depends on which spells you use the most of. You have quite the spread in the list and feats you chose. I was listing the majority of your options, not that you have to pick any other them.
I hardly ever use heighten but it is a way to increase the DC of lower level business spells so your higher level spells can be a utility like Overland Flight. Heighten Glitterdust is useful...Heightened Persistent Glitterdust is just brutal without a need for a 1 round set up of Hexes.
Really I think you would be better off with a build like:
1) Extra Hex (your DM has house-ruled for you...grab evil eye ASAP)
1) Improved Initiative
3) Rime Spell (Hello Snowball, Flurry of Snowballs, Ice Spears, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold my friends.)
5) Spell Focus (Necromancy, Enchantment or Conjuration)
7) Persistent Spell
9) Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy, Enchantment or Conjuration)
11) Split Hex
13) Dazing Spell
15) Quicken SpellHexes:
Evil Eye, Cackle, Slumber, Misfortune (and if you must) FlightMajor:
Ice Tomb, RetributionAccursed Hex is a good feat...But lots of fights are over before you can keep targeting the same person...not to mention you have other hexes to throw at them. Evil Eye is guaranteed as long as they can be affected by it, Cackle to keep it up. I think it almost is a wasted feat for you.
I love this list! Only thing is should I get those cold spells with rime if we have an alchemist who's getting tanglefoot and frost bombs?
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I love this list! Only thing is should I get those cold spells with rime if we have an alchemist who's getting tanglefoot and frost bombs?
Frost bomb is actually a busy when I took it. Different damage but I was more into Tangelfoot, curse, and Force bombs.
But of course because he can only effect a small radius while flurry of snowballs and cone of cold cover much more area and damages the whole radius equally.
Entangled is a brutal debuff for both casters and melees. It also gives you something to counter a spell caster with. They begin casting and you slam a rime snowball to the face...they need 2 concentration checks just to maintain the spell.
Honestly you can never have too much control as long as it comes with damage and in this case the two of you will make combats a breeze for your melee guys.
And I was thinking Accursed Hex could be used vs bosses? You still don't think its worth it?
Nope...just change hexes or cast on them.
Done, will be dropping accursed hex
How about a Widen Spell to combo with the cone spells?
How about a Widen Spell to combo with the cone spells?
It's widely considered a waste.
+3 is just too high a price to pay.
if I use Rime Spell but the original spell says No Save (ie. Ice Storm), do they still get a Save whenever I use Rime Spell? and if so is it a Reflex save or?
if I use Rime Spell but the original spell says No Save (ie. Ice Storm), do they still get a Save whenever I use Rime Spell? and if so is it a Reflex save or?
Rime, like Concussive, doesn't care if they made a save, just that they took damage if the appropriate type.
Ahh ok I see why its so highly recommended. So basically they are getting entangled no matter what. How long does the entanglement last? Does it depend on the spell being cast or something else?
I like the idea more now of an improved familiar that could use Ill Omen before I use my spells and hexes like Misfortune. Which level would u recommend this feat and which improved familiar would he best suited for me?
Ahh ok I see why its so highly recommended. So basically they are getting entangled no matter what. How long does the entanglement last? Does it depend on the spell being cast or something else?
Read the feat carefully. One round for every spell level. That's base level before metamagic adjustment.
I like the idea more now of an improved familiar that could use Ill Omen before I use my spells and hexes like Misfortune. Which level would u recommend this feat and which improved familiar would he best suited for me?
If you using the build I suggested you would need to move a few feats around. But dropping greater spell focus for Improved familiar by level 7, 9 at the latest.
What familiar you use is going to depend on your alignment. What alignment?
I like the idea more now of an improved familiar that could use Ill Omen before I use my spells and hexes like Misfortune. Which level would u recommend this feat and which improved familiar would he best suited for me?If you using the build I suggested you would need to move a few feats around. But dropping greater spell focus for Improved familiar by level 7, 9 at the latest.
What familiar you use is going to depend on your alignment. What alignment?
I will go whatever alignment allows me to get the best familiar :)
I will go whatever alignment allows me to get the best familiar :)I like the idea more now of an improved familiar that could use Ill Omen before I use my spells and hexes like Misfortune. Which level would u recommend this feat and which improved familiar would he best suited for me?If you using the build I suggested you would need to move a few feats around. But dropping greater spell focus for Improved familiar by level 7, 9 at the latest.
What familiar you use is going to depend on your alignment. What alignment?
Welcome to LN or LE...the Imp is one of the strongest options you can get.
The Azata is a nice one like Grandlounge mentioned.
Just with all improved familiars, they lose the Ability to speak with animals of their kind so some Archetypes do not work on imporved familiars.
THere are a few honorable mentions as well:
Faerie Dragon- They cast spells AS a sorcerer. they will need UMD for your spell list but they can use things off the Wizard list. It is an alright familiar.
Pooka- DR, SR, and Fast Healing. Invisibility at will. And they are cute.
Mephits- Dust Mephits have nice SLA, Hands to use wands and Flight.
Pseudodragon- These take work to make really good. But I like these for COmbat familiars to deliver touch spells, Evolved for a 10ft tail. Using touch spells with a sleep poison tagged onto it. Pair with Evil eye hex, and Pernicious Poison can make a decent sleep stinger. Not really a recommendation as your too tight on feats but this can be really good if built around.
While useful I must say I think Pooka sound deeply annoying